Fin tuning for short line

[TEL]

At what line length do you start tuning your fin for your harder passes. I have heard that what works for short lines are more difficult for your opening passes. What adjustments are done? Just curious not there yet

[Than_Bogan]

When you can't figure out how to get better any time soon by any other method.

 

I'm only sort of kidding. Unless your ski is set up very wrong, it's not likely to be fundamentally holding you back. But when you are firmly on a plateau and don't have the inclination to do what's really necessary to get past it, you can make some gains by fine-tuning your fin instead!

[Horton]

@TEL with some skis and setups 28 might feel funky to make 38 feel best. I do not think this is true if your hard pass is a longer line such as 28.

 

In no case do opening passes need to really feel BAD to make hardest pass best.

[JackQ]

I always set up my ski for the hardest pass, I can make or at least run deep. For me that is 39.

I have never felt like it made my longest pass harder. Generally, though I most likely should not, I do not ski my 1st two or three passes aggressively as my last two or three. Therefore I want the to perform best when I am skiing hard, not when I am easily running a longer easy pass.

[BraceMaker]

I suspect this video is in your mind?

 

[jimski]

So where do you start tuning

Shorter - longer

Less fin surface area - more surface area

More or less DFT

Deeper - shallower

If your skiing well at -22 but at -35 the ski breaks you or you have trouble turning it where do you start

Assuming your technique is solid

[BobF]

So many variables - it depends on exactly what's happening with you and your ski. Get video of you skiing. Then, post here, and/or get this book.

[Deanoski]

I find that less tip is better for me at -35 -38 at my shortest lengths

[jimski]

@Deanoski

So then your shortening fin length with no DFT change reducing leading edge ?

I think my 2020 pro built works great with the # @brooks gave me just wondering where people make the changes as the line gets shorter and there seems to be no real answer so I would assume that most skiers don’t really know

And I do have both fin whisper books and read them quite regularly

[Drago]

@jimski Its not an, "Oh , now-I'm-a-shortline-skier-so-I-do-this" thing.

[Ed_Johnson]

Tested a lot of skis and fins this year and what I concluded on this subject is that long shallow settings help the ski to be faster, and seem easier to ski with up through 32 off.

 

Once you get to 35 off and shorter, the ski accelerates faster on it's own, due to the shorter line lengths, and doesn't need that extra speed, and responds better to the shorter/deeper settings. These help to turn better at faster speeds and to scrap better.

 

Something I need a lot of unfortunately.

 

 

[jimski]

Great in-site @Ed_Johnson

I myself this year noticed some difference in water temp and fin settings

In the cold short and deep seemed to work better and once the water warmed up the long and shallow felt better

Cold for me is below 55 deg

[ski6jones]

Resurrecting this to see if anyone has additional insight on this. I've been getting mid to deep 38 for a few years now, improving slowly. 38 is usually a scramble so its tough to say what more I want from my ski at that line. Would you try to make those decisions at 35 then? Any general rules of thumb for the types of things that crop up at 38 that may not be a problem at 32 and longer?

[buoyboy1]

@ Ed Johnson - Where did you end up on your short and deep settings? Are you still on an NRG? Thanks.

[Ed_Johnson]

@buoyboy1 .... No, on a Denali C75. The NRG did work best with a CG Fin and/or the Whisper Fin, Long and Short Line. The WF is a different animal ..Short/Shallow for it.

 

Anybody needs a CG Fin, RFF, I have 2 and only need one..$125.00

 

 

 

[liquid d]

@ski6jones I hate to give a "vague" answer, but it's different for different skiers. Marcus Brown described it perfectly in another thread not long ago. At that line length , you have to be able to drift/smear/slide (whatever you want to call it) the tail of the ski comfortably and with quite a bit of proficiency to run it. You can do it with a short/deep setup, or a shallow/long, or even a short/shallow...depending on bindings placement/etc.

Don't be afraid to change it up, to even something drastic from what you're used to. At your level, you'll know in 3-4 sets if it might work for you.

Find someone who's killing it on your ski, and ask what numbers they run, and where they've been.

That's an awesome part of our sport...the worlds best are happy as can be to share....

 

[Horton]

Perhaps the best way to think about is that as the rope gets shorter fin and binding settings need to be more optimized. For some skiers on some skis the ideal fin setting at shorter ropes will result in a slower turning ski at longer lengths.

[Stevie Boy]

I wonder if people are too quick to make adjustments, with shorter line lengths dynamics and timing change, should you give body mechanics and your mind time to adjust.

[jayski]

@Horton I used to think that way and set up my skis to act like buses on my easier passes but I began to wonder if my lack of progress was due to that mentality.

 

When we are running our easier passes it's easy to ski with proper form and do what we need to, as the line gets shorter we are usually unable to achieve that and wind up in more of a scramble mode.

 

If your ski is set up to turn easy, to the point of detrimental on your easier passes perhaps it will aid you on your hardest passes, as the required input is much less than the opposing "bus" set up mentality. It's easy to temper a skis quick turning attitude with body movement on our easier passes, but it's harder to make a ski turn at our limits.

 

One of the most revered skis was the Nano one, it would turn no matter what, lots of people achieved their PB's on that ski, and there is a LOT of the new skis that turn near automatically.

 

as what @liquid d said "Don't be afraid to change it up, to even something drastic from what you're used to"

[Adam Caldwell]

DFT and boot position will ultimately define the success of deep/short versus long shallow. Taking that idea further, I will also add that Binding type will play an equally important role in which 'setup' the skier will preferre...._ Normally... Then consider hieght/weight ratio with a given ski size, and things can get muddied even further.

 

Another consideration for short-line in this conversation is how far (radially) beyond centerline the skier can remain connected to the rope/boat. The earlier the separation between the handle and the axial center-line of the body, the harder short-line will ultimately be.

 

The right ski, binding, fin setup can make it significantly 'easier' to get connected behind the boat, and stay connected throughout the swing into apex.

 

Double boots, or bindings that have a overly high/stiff/tight upper cuff (front or back) typically will struggle with deeper/shorter setups. In a sense, the binding causes the skiers legs to interfere with what the deep/short fin is trying to help the ski do for you.

 

The excessive lateral input (or another way I like to think of it = excessive lateral restriction), can block the ski from rolling up in the preturn and helping the ski to advance and enter the banked turn as early during the swing to apex - putting you into the ball late, fast and with less then adequate ski rotation/position to make a well timed turn at the ball.

 

Those with laterally stiff bindings (front or rear) usually need to run much more length in order to balance out the forces acting on the ski. While its possible to get it "working", the larger longer fin can cause issues with the ability to get the rotation through the turn finish to be adequate enough for short-line - that is without being a superstar athlete to make a complicated misaligned turn. (Misaligned = body not pointing where the ski is pointing)

 

Ideally, We want our feet and ankles to act more like a ball joint on top of the ski, and less like like a hinge that can only move front to back. IMO, this is the true secret to short-line skiing and binding/fin setup.

[Horton]

@jayski I would not set up a ski to turn slow at 32 but if the perfect set up for 38 makes the ski turn slow at 32 who cares?