2021 is my last year of USAWS

[Horton]

@ForrestGump One of the things the training does is formalize the guidelines for what is and is not appropriate. When some dirt bag steps over the line it's not as if he wasn't told exactly where the limits are.

[ForrestGump]

I know what the training does as I've taken it. I still think this is over reach. A dirt bag doesn't need this to know where the line is. They all know it. They choose to step over it.

 

The one thing I despise about SafeSport, is it allows blame to be shifted. Once someone takes the training, they become liable in civil court. You were around and you didn't stop something? Guess what, you're now liable. Even if you didn't notice it. It moves the burden of proof to you.

[RazorRoss3]

@Horton it turns out we didn’t need a beer thread, if you want to keep @The_MS MS from running 39 off just threaten him with safesport training ;)

[thager]

Too over the top. USAWS photo I.D. to boat makes more sense.

[ForrestGump]

So does Nate just laugh and high five himself as he's doing his SafeSport required training next year?

[ski6jones]

Liability, aka insurance, is why this is even being discussed. You can make the argument that those in supervisory positions over youth should have the training, possibly even some levels of officials in USAWS. Every active member? That really serves no useful purpose.

 

Me:  Hey, why don't you come out and ski in our tournament?

Non-tournament skier: Sounds fun, what do I need to do?

Me: Buy a USAWS membership for $85, pay the tournament entry fee, then go home and take a 90 minute course that has nothing to do with skiing.  Then you'll be good to go!

Non-tournament skier:  Nah, too much trouble. I'll just go the lake and ski with my friends.

 

Grow the sport!

[Than_Bogan]

@ski6jones That's a very valid point about further discouraging tournament participation. That does concern me, but my own guess is that, in the quite near future, essentially everyone is going to end up taking SafeSport training for some reason or another, and so people will just be like "yeah, I already did that."

[dave2ball]

@lpskier my question to you and the group is what is inappropriate behavior? Isn’t the all in the eye of the beholder? Skiers come from all backgrounds and many generations. The times have changed as to what is acceptable in the public eye. I believe this is a huge overreach by USA waterski. They seem to be imposing there values on us instead of allowing us the skiers or the family as what may or may not offend me or what is inappropriate.

[6balls]

It will be hard to get new members to bite on that as noted...some rules are dumb, some are dumber. I couldn't be "safety official" despite a MD degree, my work in the ER, my trauma directorship, my certifications in advanced cardiac life support, advanced trauma life support, advanced live support in obstetrics, neonatal life support...and of course your basic CPR and basic life support stuff. But i digress.

 

I did learn a few things, like how to best flip over a jump skier in the water who still had his skis on, onto his back, such that he can be towed to shallower water and back boarded.

 

I got something out of it. Probably you can get something out of this course as well.

[ResponseSkier]

@thager photo ID is racist, you know that - "com'on man"

 

We all know this program is essentially useless, but at the end of the day it's just an hour. I agree with most of the conservative points that have been made, but at the end of the day...it's just an hour. Most of you guys probably have a CCW license so the government has already has your background and fingerprints anyways.

 

What @Horton mentioned regarding the communication with minors is very valuable - valuable enough its worth an hour of time - otherwise it could cost your a lot of lawyer hours.

 

@ForrestGump that might be the comment of the year - Lol.

[LoopSki]

Its a sad day in our already sad society

that we need a class to teach people who

the perv in the room is or how not to be that perv.

So stupid

[ETskier]

Agreed with Mark, Jody, Bruce and others. I'm done after this year. I do this because I love to water ski. Another nail in the coffin of what once was the AMERICAN WATER SKI ASSOCIATION. Unfortunately I am too old to fight this from the inside or start a new association. We just want to Water Ski.

 

Now , I'm all for protecting our kids from sexual predators, and I'm all for keeping performance enhancing drugs out of our sport. We just want to Water Ski.

 

As a part of USAWWS and USOC and subsequently IWWF and IOC, all liberal world order organizations, we are giving up the freedom to govern ourselves. We are handing over independent authority to International Safe Sport and others like the World Anti Doping Agency to act as police, judge, jury, and jailer all outside American jurisprudence. We just want to Water Ski.

 

Our participation in all of this has been about getting us into the Olympics. News flash: We ain't gettin' in. We just want to Water Ski.

 

My name is Terry and I just want to Water Ski.

[Jody_Seal]

Sitting at the dinner table last night with team Seal

This topic came up. It was universal with in the group that this policy will greatly impact membership within AWSA.

All five of us are considering not continuing with this organization.

For me I guess I am finding it hard to find benefits for me to continue with awsa. Rankings ideology does not resonate in my mind. Being an official has become a drudgery with all the anal rules and policy that now permeates within the sport. Keeping up with it is a full time job. The constant driver dramas and never ending cheating innuendo has become a tumor within the sport.

As a skier I am not competitive even on a rankings list. Maybe at a tournament I will go up and down lake and be done. I can save my weekends to ski at home with my friends and family and take as many rides as I can stand and save hundreds of dollars a year.

My wife does not ski tournaments even though she is a good skier. But she to commits many weekends to the sport as a senior three event scorer with really no compensation.

All in all It boils down to belonging to a organization that we pay to belong too without say in policys like the safe sport mandate. Should this policy have been taken to a vote by membership? It was not.

Again we are struggling with the benefits to us as members. This household or team Seal (5 of us) probably spend upwards of $15k (probably more) a year just going to tournaments.

 

I Don't need USAWS to ski at home and on our public lakes.

 

I am thinking before I get to old I may go race flatbottom circle boats. The cost to do so is cheaper then participating in organized rankings list association.

 

 

 

 

 

[dave2ball]

@Jody_Seal well said and I do agree 100% with your statement. I know about half a dozen skiers that run deep shoreline and do not ski tournaments for the reasons stated I. Many prior statements.

[lpskier]

@klindy @JeffSurdej Isn’t the Safesport requirement from USOC? I don’t recall ever voting on it at an AWSA board meeting, though it could have been USAWSWS. If it’s USOC, then doesn’t it apply to all sports, not just water ski?

[The_MS]

I have heard that the Waterski Masters will be moved due to the voting laws in GA

[ral]

“Since 99.8% do not need the training”. Saw this concept explicitly or implied in many posts.

 

I disagree.

 

To be able to keep working at my company (Honeywell, the largest Industrial company in the USA) I need to undertake hours of training every year on Safety, Non-discrimination, Compliance, Anti-corruption, Harassment and similar.

 

What I can tell is that I can see many “normal” people (not corrupt, bigot, thiefs, thugs) not realizing that some of the actions and views they have are at least in a gray zone, as well as conceptual misconceptions. In particular, on how to recognize and react to third party perpetrators and victims.

 

As @Horton mentioned, social media is an area with plenty of pitfalls.

 

Parts of this training, like the “Managing High-Risk Situations”, are, at least, very good reminders.

[dave2ball]

@ral you work for a private coordination. All private or government jobs have mandated sexual harassment training provided by HR. Last I remember I do not work for USA WATERSKI. I belong to them. I do not get paid for being an official. But you do bring up a good point that most everyone will have this type of training provided by there employer. So why is this being raked down our throat????

[ral]

@dave2ball , my point is not the compulsory aspect of the training, but its usefulness.

[klindy]

An important part of the training is developing "tools" to help prevent anything from happening. For example, one 'recommendation' (probably should be called a requirement) is that no kid under 18 should ever be in a situation where there is only one (non-family member) adult present. At a minimum that reduces the potential for any bad actor from having an opportunity. That may be common sense already. That may seem ridiculous to some. But listening to the training it raises it to a level of consciousness where bad things may be prevented.

 

Others have suggested that this is just to pacify the lawyers. I think it's more than that (although related) since, unfortunately, these types of things do happen. The organization is not equipped to deal with these issues directly. Forget any question of liability for a minute, we don't have a committee or team or even 'rules' which would allow a case to be adequately dealt with including the legal ramifications. SafeSport is setup specifically to deal with these issues and has the structure to handle it. It's not a case of passing the buck, it more about handling it appropriately.

[jjackkrash]

At least with regard to training on the prevention of the abuse of minor athletes (I am assuming this is the type of training we are discussing given the context of Horton's post about emails), the training is not designed to convince an abuser not to abuse; it is designed to help good people who can't really fathom what some people are capable of prevent the unthinkable. If common sense and personal responsibility were enough to prevent abuse, then there would not be 10s of thousands of boy scouts, gymnasts, kids in church groups, kids in day care, kids you know, kids your kids are friends with--maybe your kids--who were abused over the last century and beyond by people the kids trusted and who were trusted by the community at large.

 

Adults who would harm and abuse children have been infiltrating the groups that support children for years because that's where the kids gather. Abusers engage in predictable behaviors that are designed to take advantage of the trust of the children and their parents. They use various forms of grooming and trust-building techniques to gain one-on-one access to the children that many people would not be aware of without training. Abusers rely on a lack of training, a lack of strict procedures, and the good faith of others to harm their victims.

 

Training helps good people spot and recognize grooming behaviors. Training also helps good people understand why strict adherence to procedures based around the two-adult rules and the adult-child-boundary rules (like the email communication rules discussed by Horton above) are effective and essential in preventing abuse even if they might otherwise seem trivial or unnecessary.

 

I don't generally like getting things shoved down my throat, but in this case I don't see the downside to consenting to an hour of training on such an important topic. Even if you are busy. Even if you have had the training for another purpose. Even if you are not a coach. And especially if you are a good and trusting person who would never engage in abusive behavior and cannot understand how someone else could engage in such conduct. There are hundreds of other things to bitch about more deserving than this type of training.

[Jody_Seal]

I guess training can help spot the perp...

Then they put them on the board of directors of usaws!!

 

The perp that is!

[ScottScott]

Man it gets hard to read BOS sometimes, and this is a perfect example. It's an hour investment for information that helps identify and prevent bad situations. Is it really that big of an issue to participant in something that costs you NO money, just a little time, to participate in tournaments? I don't get it.

[The_MS]

It’s just $85. I’m sure USAWS can be an organization with out me.

[ski6jones]

I would LOVE to see a poll of peoples dominant political view (left, right, independent) versus position on this issue. Verboten I realize but a guy can dream, right?

[teammalibu]

I second what@ral said! I took countless mandatory training classes in my many years working for several large corps. I usually dreaded another boring training class but i always learned something. with all the scumbags out there waiting to take advantage of someone why not spend an hour and see if you dont learn something! if it helps keep a few kids from being hurt thats a good thing.

[NikolG]

A similar course is required in California for everyone that's employed. Managers/Supervisors are mandated reporters of sexual abuse (as of 2021) and all employees must complete a sexual harassment course every 2 years. (As of 2020, for any business that has 5 or more employees!) We have spent a small fortune on these "required" courses to stay compliant and we employ 20 year olds! Managers/supervisors have the brunt of it with multiple courses, covering all facets. It's just the way our litigious country is going, i'm not surprised its in sports now, then people can't claim they "didn't know" the rules. Its a crazy world and I hope we can all learn from it, Safesport is a quick and painless course though! (unlike some of the California employee ones!) Just bite the bullet....its never too late to learn something new despite how crazy it may seem!

 

[Horton]

I called Nate Boudreaux, the Executive Director of USA Water Ski & Wake Sports this morning. Below is his explanation of the new SafeSport requirement.

Unfortunately, this is the new normal in any sport that has both adult and minor participants. Given that minors are participating in nearly every tournament and USA-WSWS sanctioned event, the board felt it was the right thing to do to implement Safe Sport training as a requirement for membership. It’s not really that big of an ask for members to spend an hour once every four years and 10 min in the years in between to take the refresher training.

 

 

A little side note, all of our insurance policies now have exclusions for any claims involving sexual misconduct (the carriers are not willing to cover those claims brought against the organization thanks to instances like Larry Nasser and others that have come to life in sport recently). Organizations like USA Gymnastics (and a number of other NGBs) and the Boy Scouts of America have been sued for $100s of millions of dollars in claims for lack of oversight and for not creating a safe environment for their athletes/participants. We are trying to be proactive and do what we can to create a safe environment.

 

 

We have had 17 members under investigation for a violation of the Safe Sport code – that’s 17 to many. Hopefully further education among all will help. Much like seat belt laws 30-40 years ago were met with resistance it’s the norm now. This will soon be the norm in all sport.

 

 

 

FAQ - https://www.teamusa.org/usa-water-ski/athlete-safety/safesport-faq

[JackQ]

I dont think Seat Belts are a good corollary, there are demonstrated tangible results for seatbelts in testing and real life, for Aircraft, race cars and passenger autos. Demonstrated impact for telling people what not to do, or not tolerate what they already know not to do, not so much. What would have a much better results, is swift significant punishment and public exposure of anyone that violates the law.

[Jody_Seal]

I guess it was the delivery method John. SIGN ZEE PAPERS

OK how about hey we are going to incorporate these policys into our system , officials and drivers clinics that we take every two years can incorporate these modules. And or oh! For the skier we will deduct $15 from their membership fee if you sit down and take a look at these modules. But no ! Sign zee papers or no soup for you!

I think the money from member loss is going to be more significant rather then roll it in and offer a discount.

 

Whats the saying about bees and honey??

[The_MS]

17 were already investigated and the training hasn’t even taken place yet. So do we find 17 more after we are all enlightened?

[skierjp]

@Horton I want to see someone or a couple guys take Mark to the woodshed. My money is on Mark

[dave2ball]

@Horton i agree with skierjp I know markn. Money is with mark.

 

[bkreis]

Having taken it for a few years now, it’s common sense and a good reminder on some issues that most overlook.

 

Everyone should think of it as positive, you can start and stop as needed to complete it over months if you want to.

 

No different than everyone should be Cpr certified just to drive a car in my opinion.

[Chef23]

If I read this thread correctly if I want to join USAWS this year even if all I plan to do is ski at my home lake I need to take the SafeSport training is that correct?

[ral]

@Chef23 , yes. And, at the rate at which this thread is growing, you most likely will spend 2.5x more time reading and posting here than taking the training...

[Horton]

@Chef23 from the time you join you have 30 days to take the training. if you do not get the training done in that 30 days you will not be able to participate in a tournament until you do complete the training.

[mikegile]

@ral, there is a big mental difference between choosing to waste your time on the BOS and being mandated to do something. I am anti perv, pro child but don't feel I need another mandated use of my time.

 

I am a dentist and in the last 20 years the amount of classes we are forced to take each year has gotten out of control. From OSHA, WISHA, HIPPA, CPR, hazardous materials, risk management, TB prevention, HIV, HR, domestic abuse awareness, suicide awareness, COVID, etc. It has become a full time job and where does it end? Just because its a good idea shouldn't mean we are all forced to participate.

 

Do we need to take classes on gender, race, abuse, or shoplifting just so we can do what we love?

 

For the record I'm not trying to minimize any of the damage done as I have family that was a victim of sexual abuse. Completely not okay and the perps need to be sent to the woodshed.

 

Unfortunately, it is impossible to take a class for every possible sad scenario in this world

[mikegile]

@Horton, I assume the 30 days applies to all of us that have a multi year membership?

[Horton]

@Mike Gile i guess... starting in 2022

[bigtex2011]

What's an 1hr to most people anyways. Is it just a pride thing? It seems 49. 7% percent of the people can't deal with rules or change whether It's good or bad.

 

If someone told you that by taking a class that would take one hour, it will or could help another human that may well be a competitive skiers daughter.. that seems like a small price to pay to me

 

 

Wear a mask to help save a sick or old person. Lot's of people won't do it. It's seems silly to me.

 

If my favorite Mexican Restaurant wants me to do a belly flop to get some taco's and beer then I'd do it. I like too eat.... Sure I could go somewhere else, but I want their taco's and beer not the taco's and beer down the road.

 

Take ur shoes off at the TSA checkpoint in the airport. Everyone bitches and moans about it but it's better than the alternative.

 

 

 

 

I understand that people don't want to do it,. Life's about choices. But quitting something you like doing for an hr's worth of video spoon fed learning seems ridiculous.

 

 

Honestly, If it helped keep someone's daughter from being violated than sign me up the course.

 

 

 

 

[lpskier]

@The_MS Several Civil War re-enactments as well.

[BG1]

The old saying “The straw that broke the camel’s back” might help some of you understand why Mark and others feel the way they do. It’s not just this latest mandate/change from USA-WSWS. I have to take a lot of training for an educational facility and a government agency. I’ll take this course although I’ve been “trained” from every conceivable angle imaginable. I’ll keep my head down, not make eye contact, and jump through the next hoop in front of me. I think some members will let their membership expire and mandating training for a newcomer to join will be a barrier for some also. I know it’s “Just an hour”, but for some newcomers, that will be a deal breaker. I can hear them now, “Hey, I just want to ski”. It’s not like it was easy to get someone to join before this mandate. I do completely understand the moral and legal reasons why USA-WSWS chose to implement this requirement, but I think there will be negative effects.

[skibug]

Eye wash and liability deflection.....that is all it is.

[Jody_Seal]

Mandatory social engineering!

 

 

[ral]

As I believe this forum is a reasonable representation of the competitive skiing landscape, I see that the packaging and delivery of the SafeSport initiative could have been better done. It is clear that it rubbed many the wrong way.

 

From the end goal perspective, I would like to understand from the strong opposers if they believe that USAWS is trying to solve a problem that is not relevant or does not exist, or that training and awareness is not the right way of solving it?

[sunperch]

@ral I think the resistance has more to do with the utter frustration of the woke culture encroaching in every aspect of our lives. The hypersensitivity of the woke culture assumes that we are unable to make intelligent decisions on our own and that we are all so inherently bad that we can't tell right from wrong. Funny thing is that I have done the safesport training module. My answers from the pre-tests and the post-tests match. Looks like I didn't need to watch all of the videos to know right from wrong.

[Jody_Seal]

". """Funny thing is that I have done the safesport training module. My answers from the pre-tests and the post-tests match. Looks like I didn't need to watch all of the videos to know right from wronng"

 

 

There's a test Too???

 

I think that pretty much sums up the entire exercise in polishing their turd agenda!

Reminder!!! Safe Sport is a government funded watch dog group and you just took a test with profile information that this watch dog group collects!!!

 

 

Time to wake up!!

[ski6jones]

For me the biggest problem is implementation. Why ALL active skiers?

 

The low hanging fruit here is officials, truthfully officials above assistant would be best, along with tournament directors and aspiring officials (assistant chiefs, etc). Doing this you get most of the perceived benefit and eliminate the barrier to entry for new skiers. You'd have probably 25% or more of people at a tournament trained. Everybody wins.

 

This across the board edict from on high makes it that much harder for the first time participant, not to mention it feels like a knee jerk reaction from leadership without much thought. For those that have already voluntarily invested a ton of time getting ratings the training is kind of in the noise, another box to tic.

 

Still don't want to take the training, dump your ratings and just ski.

[bigtex2011]

@Jody_Seal are you saying collecting data is a new thing. I'm pretty sure it's been going on since we were born. What your moms maiden name, the last 4 numbers of your social. Your phone gps, google maps, waze, alexa, siri. Who cares. For better or worse it's the world we live in. Remember when you read newspapers and encyclopedias. Or no spell ck. I'm not saying saying everything that's new is better. But one thing is for sure, there's no time machine to turn back the clocks to yester-year.

 

I would hate to see you and @MS quit skiing tourneys but in the end it's your choice.