Reinvent my onside

[Drago]

Guys, it's so simple: Mere augmentation of your turbo encapsulation through intermediary will create peripheral amplitude. Everyone that runs deep 41 is doing it, they just don't know they're doing it. Why are you fighting it? Just do it and thank @mrpreuss later?

[Horton]

@Zman super frustrating! My understanding of the mechanics at on side has totally changed. My actual skiing is maybe going backwards. I am running a decent % of 38s but my old habits are still intact. Turns out water skiing is hard.

 

Things I have worked on with some success:

1. two hands on the handle longer - more connected

2. keeping my feet from getting in front of my mass at the wakes

3. keeping my feet from swinging out early

4. keeping my shoulders from moving to the inside early

5. resisting pulling my outside shoulder back at apex

6. more front foot pressure from the second wake to apex / try to not be static

7. other stuff...

 

[hammerski]

Bring the fam down to ski paradise for 6 days of skiing with Adam and Adam! March 5th -12th 2022. Great way to build a new platform for the upcoming season ????

[ScottScott]

Look for the next buoy sooner....

[ScottScott]

To make a change, your skiing will go backwards at first. If you believe in the changes, stick with it....you'll be better in the long run.

 

People are too impatient to actually listen to productive advice because they don't see immediate results.

[The_MS]

This whole thread shows why certain coaches stand above the rest. They make sure that the explanation is understood. Guys like Chet have a knack for making sure you understand the concept of what he wants you to accomplish. He will explain it 3 different ways if needed.

[Horton]

@ScottScott wise words

[mrpreuss]

This is the key:

 

This is really really really HARD.

 

"think pull in the transition"

 

I cannot understand it for you.

 

It is really scary, too, apparently.

 

So many so sure? Well OK

 

I have been thanked TODAY already.......

 

HA!!!!!!!!!!

 

I KNOW I AM RIGHT

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

@mrpreuss I really don't know what you're talking about and I'm really tired of you talking down to me. Why don't you just speak in plain English like an adult or move on?

[Dano]

@Horton with the 7 points you've listed above. They all sound like your following some advice Adam Cord put out in another thread titled "connection and swing" where he talks about coming out of angle earlier. Is this what your trying to accomplish?

[Horton]

@dano Adam and I are friends and talk about skiing frequently. he is one of many influences on the way I think about skiing along with Trent and Matt Brown and Fred Winter and others...

 

I confess I have not completely kept up on that other thread

[mrpreuss]

@Horton

 

I kid around and can't help it.

 

The goal is to be better after the second wake.

It is exactly what most everyone says.

All advice is on the same thing.

 

My advice has you get stronger there no matter what your technique.

 

It is only 1 thought.

I begged you to try it.

You have nothing to lose.

 

Think "pull" during the transition, it is a split second.

That thought will add connection to the rope and better handle control.

 

If you do nothing there or you do work on it, that thought will make you stronger

in your transition and preturn.

 

Because it is so difficult to "get it", if you listen and try it you will see what happens

when you are stonger there and the light bulb will turn on.

It is the difference, hard to explain and even harder to apply if you are thinking

anything else. In this thread, I said clearly I did not get it when Jamie was trying to

explain it to me. It took a coulpe of months to find a way to do it.

 

This is the easy way:

 

Try it! Just think "PULL" during the transition.

 

 

[mrpreuss]

 

I can't work on 7 things at once in anything.

 

I need to focus on the main problem. This works, especially for someone like you.

 

Good luck, you will be fine. You can, just try it.

[mrpreuss]

Thanks for the feedback on how to improve the hardest thing to do, handle control!!!!!!

 

Quotes:

 

"I am learning to control this move…it’s amazing…."

 

"Just wanted to let you know I've been trying what you told Horton to do. I'm skiing better than I have in a long time. Way better connection!!! Thanks!!"

 

"Clearly not staying one with the rope, and not keeping the line tight on 2,4 side.

Thanks again!

PULL!"

[Horton]

I can now see what it is I need to do. It is just way harder at short rope

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSnRI5VpoQ-/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[BS74]

@Horton , wearing Wet suit top. Is the water cold or air? Good skiing.

[Horton]

@BS74 I wear Lycra rash guard under my vest. Not a wet suit top.

[mrpreuss]

@Horton

 

I told you, LIGHT BULBS............... All this time and I have foud a way to make it easy to feel and understand the difference with one simple thought...... "PULL"

 

Credit would be appreciated for being right after all of the fighting and showing you how it should be done.

 

Thinking "pull" makes you apply power there, no matter what your style.

You are weak there, obviously because you have never done it correctly.

 

Yes, forces are greater (mostly) and the time to apply is less as the line shortens.

Patience... You just started doing it Right!!!!

 

***********That is the main reason, for a skier like you, to only work on this part of your skiing. Plus everything else is pretty easy for you and you are good everywhere else.

 

With a proper, powerful transition and preturn, you are set in the best position you can be for the turn. So everything else becomes easy and natural.

 

For MOST skiers at your level, this is where the weak link is.

 

Thanks would be nice, too

[Horton]

@mrpreuss I swear to God if you don't stop posting in this thread I will ban you forever

[scuppers]

@Horton - Have him diagram what he is talking about. Maybe he could overwrite on your vid. I’m thinking there are some others here that want to understand what the heck he is talking about.

[Horton]

@scuppers no

[jedgell]

Glad I’m not the only one that can’t understand a thing he writes.

[ScottScott]

Seems he wants you to pull in during edge change.....and he's quite passionate about it.

[Than_Bogan]

@ScottScott Actually no. I'm 99% sure he does not want anyone to pull in. That would be a disaster and I believe he knows that. But the fact that so many reading this think that's what he's talking about is why this is not useful coaching. It was all kinda funny until he demanded credit based on something that @Horton didn't understand nor try... Now I am just counting down to when he is banned.

[ScarletArrow]

Doesn’t he have to go through a process of single panda, triple panda and then triple Brittany?

[BS74]

Damn, I got a triple Brittany before any Pandas, I'm screwed!

[ScottScott]

I think I've only seen one wing nut....what happened to those?

[ALPJr]

Not sure about the delivery or semantics being used but I thought that he was trying to explain something that a world record holder had shared with him.

[gavski]

Enough is enough….

 

This advice works. What @mrpreuss is referring to is the single most important aspect to short line skiing.

 

Like Horton, I have been reinventing my skiing and this is the secret sauce that I have been looking for..it’s so simple…don’t try it, if you are not interested.

 

When I get the timing right, it feels like I am watching myself ski from above. Trent and Rossi talk about having vision - I now know what they mean.

 

I have been told by many a pro, that once you work out what to do off the 2nd wake, it will unlock your skiing..all pros/ elite skiers do the same move off the 2nd wake…all the rest of us do not.. work out what and how and your skiing will be unlocked..

 

This worked for me…but it will take a period of hard work to undo my old movement patterns. On the occasion that get it dialled - hallelujah…all the advice that I have ever been given, now makes sense to me thanks to this vital jigsaw piece.

 

Adam Caldwell has found what works for him -sadly, I couldn’t get that to work for me, but I understand exactly what he is trying to achieve.

 

Thank you Mr Preuss.

[mrpreuss]

Do not change this simple thought:

 

"Think PULL during the transition and into the preturn" That is it.

If you are confused or don't understand, you are making it something it is not.

 

My idea and coaching

 

ADD NOTHING TO THIS THOUGHT:

 

"Think PULL during the transition and into the preturn" That is it.

 

That is one thought and only one simple thought......

 

No matter your style or technique, this shows you how to add power to handle

control like the pros so you can get it. This makes you control the handle and

NOT give it back to the boat. It adds width, control and power.

 

If you are convinced this can't work, It probably won't, for you.

 

YOU, YES YOU can see the difference and how amazing it is.

I learned this area as my weakness skiing with Jamie. He had a more

difficult technique and way of applying. Just follow one thought:

"Think PULL during the transition and into the preturn" That is it.

 

Give it a try, Good Luck

 

 

[scoke]

 

[Horton]

Banned

 

Can we please get back to talking about slalom.

[Deke]

So back on point...

@Horton you said, "I can now see what it is I need to do. It is just way harder at short rope." I'm assuming you're doing it in the video, which looks like your Pineapple video. What is it? Looks good!

[gavski]

@Horton, that is great skiing…..whatever you are doing - keep doing it…it looks exactly like what I have discovered and have been working on…it is very subtle but dramatic change. Shame you pulled the trigger on Mr Preuss..his message was plain and simple.

[Horton]

@deke thanks for being back on topic.

 

At this time I believe the following:

At centerline my feet advance ahead of my mass. I am totally flummoxed on how to stop this. I suspect that the change has to happen between the exit of Off Side and the wakes but I am not sure I am ever going to be able to fix that. So the Band-Aid I have applied is to move forward extra at edge change. The move is COM forward and shoulders up / level.

 

The second problem is my long engrained habit of cranking my outside shoulder back at apex. This moves my mass backward and makes me park the ski. For this I am trying to follow the advise of @adamhcaldwell and keep my left hand as far to the inside as possible. I am getting pretty good at doing it at longer line passes. As the rope gets shorter I am less consistent so I am trying to learn muscle memory at 32and 35.

 

[slow]

Dam, this thread was cracking me up!

[gavski]

@horton - you are correct about your habit to shoot the ski out in front thru the wakes from your offside to onside - I suffered from the same issue and it was beaten out of me by me by my favourite French coach…

 

This issue manifests itself from setting a strong, but static (more on that later) position out of the turn…as we know, as you approach the wakes, the load from the boat increases until CL.. As you are in a fixed/ static position, the increase in load has to go somewhere…

 

So, one of two things will happen:

1. You will buckle under the load - unlikely as you are strong as an ox…

2. The ski shoots out in front of you - thereby releasing the load…this results in you arriving at the buoy feet first with only one way to make a turn - falling to the inside..blah blah blah..

 

I have wrestled with various methods to achieve connection off the 2nd wake:

Stand up tall at CL

flatten the ski at CL

Ease up the lean at CL

release the feet at CL

Engage abs at the 2nd wake

Pull feet back at 2nd wake

point the tip at the buoy

Be super strong at the 2nd wake - waaay too strong at 1st wake

 

Sadly non of these worked as they didn’t address the main issue… being in a strong, static, braced, position. I couldn’t work out how to move from my super stacked position.

 

Hence the ‘wall’ that I had hit - mid 38’off @36..I am am strong enough and have enough ‘band aid’ techniques to run easy 35’s - and when the moon and stars are in alignment, I will get 5/ 6 @38…

 

My Achilles heal - connection off the 2nd wake..but how to you get it, whilst being stacked and strong..why do all the pros look the same off the 2nd wake? They have all worked out how to harness the load in a subtly different way to the rest of us..

 

Glenn Campbell drew me a diagram of where and how to load through the course…on a scale of 1-10, you want to be approaching the 1st wake at 3…as you progress thru CL, you want to be increasing YOUR power so that you reach level 7 off the 2nd wake..then as you swing up, you progressively reduce the load back to 1 as you reach etc..

 

Even with this advice, I couldn’t quite work out HOW with what I was doing…then along came Mr Preuss..he provided the how…BAM!!! the rest is history…

 

Caveat…it is all about timing. If I get into my old stacked position and then pull, I am reaching a level 10 at the 2nd wake and it is explosive…if I even have a hint of push (drive though the legs) the power I am able to generate shoots the ski out in front and it’s game over….the key is just time your pull movement, and nothing else, as you approach the 1st wake and continue though CL until the 2nd wake..

 

No more ‘band aid’ moves - everything else just works.

 

I have been regularly skiing since Mar - so I am conditioned…since working on this move, I have found muscles that I didn’t know existed for water skiing..my quads ache (wtf - I am trying not to push with them), my abs ache, my biceps ache - it feels like the start of the season..

 

I have a long way to go as I have some seriously ingrained movement pattens..but this move is now becoming more the norm.

 

My mantra before I ski - ‘pull not push’ - I need to turn off my legs…everything else is automatic. As long as you start at a level 3 as you approach the 1st wake and increase to about a level 7 by the 2nd wake you will see a massive difference..ONLY if you don’t push with your feet or just increase your braced position load..that isn’t the same - you will just block anything from moving until it’s too late..

 

I appreciate that the manner in which the original message had been delivered may have been not to everyone’s taste, but the information is genuine and from a bonafide source..if mr Preuss was still skiing, he would be mixing it with the top big dawgs.

 

Anyway - it works for me..sharing is caring..

[Horton]

@gavski

I am not 100% sure I understand.

 

Pull or lean intensity is a matter of perspective. One skier’s 5 is another skier’s 11.

 

I think my static stance is maybe not ideal but I totally disagree with the idea of not loading until the wakes and then trying to break the rope. I think that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what we are trying to do. We want to make speed into the wakes and switch edges as soon as possible.

 

From another perspective – If your body is sore in all sorts of weird ways you might want to reassess what you are doing. If you are working that hard you are doing something very wrong.

 

[Dano]

I don’t ski at this level. But -32@34 is a pass I can run maybe 50% of the time. “Be a weight on the end of a string” has helped me. I really focus on keeping the handle in tight to my COM, and the ski underneath me off the wakes with a tight line. Really working to keep COM connected at the handle and not behind the handle path. I would not say I am “pulling” at any point here. It almost feels like I’m “dragging” the handle out to the ball line with me, as if my COM is ahead of the handle if that makes sense? I know it’s not the case but it’s that sensation that your momentum outbound is pulling the handle along with you rather than the handle pulling you. One of the Adam’s had a thread that talked about coming out of angle sooner and following the handle path which is what I was trying to do with this thought process. Coming out of angle sooner for me seems to really help in managing load and having the ability to stay connected all the way out. Like Adam says in his thread, too much angle after CL will cause separation since you will be skiing away from the handle. Working to keep the ski underneath you I think does 2 things 1) maintains speed and 2) prevents your shoulders from moving to the inside which maintains that connection and “swing up” or outbound or tight line whatever you want to call it. I had also had some video coaching from Marcus Brown who commented I was edge changing too abruptly and moving to the inside too soon. His suggestion "don't let the ski roll onto the inside edge so soon". I think that advice is inline with "keep the ski underneath you" It’s been working for me, I hope it helps somebody else.

[gavski]

@Horton - I didn’t say ‘not loading until the wakes and then trying to break the rope’…

 

I said - don’t lock into a static, stack position and then push (lean) against the rope as a means of increasing the load. This just gets you into a lean lock and you can’t move until the load eases - which is after the 2nd wake..

 

I am now accelerating and rolling the ski flat through the wakes in the shortest possible time and distance. When I say pull - that is the sensation. What I am doing is physically lifting myself out of my acceleration position so that I am coming off the 2nd wake with the ski underneath me and the handle close up to my body with my inside arm bent at 90deg…

 

Getting this is work is no accident and it takes real physical effort - especially when learning it..I have to think pull, because I will just default back to a stacked and drive position, where I can’t move my ski fast enough because of all that load.

 

Slowly it’s becoming less effort as I learn to control the timing and intensity - but the move is still the same..i like the concept of ‘pull through the wakes’…you can call it ‘roll the ski flat at CL’, or ‘move your Mass foreword’, but that isn’t what I am doing…it is however what is now happening as a consequence.

 

You can see what this is the most misunderstood aspect of slalom skiing…

[customski]

@Dano @gavski

These last two posts make a lot of sense and happy to say I’ve been feeling similar effects after reading through all these great technical posts combined with a C75 that I’m very happy to be on..

[ALPJr]

See #5 in the how to keep handle control section… A little different than what Mr. Pruess said that his pro’ friend suggested (‘think pull’)…

 

“An astute reader will note that these are all different descriptions for the same motion”. Mr. Butterfield

 

https://www.ballofspray.com/tech-articles/87-what-the-heck-is-handle-control

[gavski]

Exactly….btw - the pro friend that Mr Preuss is referring to is Jamie Beauchesne….

[Buxrus]

Yawn!! its so unfortunate a discussion that has waterski/slalom merit ends up being dragged out to a dumpster fire.

 

After watching the skiers participate at nationals on the webcast I have come to the conclusion that skiing style/technique/whatever is totally a personal/learned thing. Why? Go back and watch. There were skiers with their arms straight out in front of them still running 28, 32 and into 35. Hips dragging behind them, chest and torso way forward, basically rolling the ski to the inside edge AT THE buoy, No lean angle, tons of lean angle, wide gate, narrow gate, counter rotating, off shoulder forward, back arm pressure, ALL THE THINGS and yet still a lot of these folks run their passes.

Now I understand this discussion is primarily about getting deeper than 32 and 35. Unfortunately, there are only a small handful of slalom skiers that will ever visit the hallowed halls of 38, 39, etc.

 

I will report that I had an epiphany this season in the form of a podcast, actually two. Rossi and Trent did their discussion about “ the handle” and better was the “ski set up” discussion. For me….BAM. I have run more 38’ s this year than accumulative in my slalom life. (3 days with Chet helped as well).

 

Bottom line…..GO SKI. GET professional training from someone credible. Ski your style. That’s the great thing I love about Chet’s coaching, he watches you ski several passes, learns your style and if there is potential with YOUR style, the coaching begins with improving or using that style to get better at the slalom course. There is not an effort to dump the baby out with the bath water and say, ski like me or Adam caldwell or John Horton.

 

So back on point, listen to the two podcast I referenced. Really listen…..there are some excellent points made that will enhance your skiing and get your farther down the rope.

[ForrestGump]

The thing I keep comign back to in my head is that there are a lot of top level ski talent all saying "WTF are you trying to say?!?!" You two (@gavski and Mr Prissy or whoever he is) might have the secret to nirvana, but if the best you can come up with is how you're trying to communicate this, then you just sound like pie in the sky, tutie frutie marshmallows.

[ScottScott]

I think they're the same person.... or are they both Chipman?

[A_B]

@Horton you and I had a discussion about the "critical" super shortline move at the end of the lean into the wakes, some time ago. I think the key is to stay connected to the handle on inside hip with your inner arm in and taking the load, the ski moves from under the line to a turn edge behind the handle, and your shoulders stay back, which helps use all of the momentum you started on the other side of the wake.

 

My personal problem with this was staying over the ski too long and not getting into the chair position at the end of the "pull" phase, which makes it easier to move the ski out on a different edge whilst keeping the shoulders back. That is where we had a disconnect, where you said it just happens. Not for me and maybe several others..

 

When I started getting this figured out, 38 and shorter seemed like instantly I was in the game, where I could run 35 back to back to back and then still come up short and narrow and fast on 38. It is all about how you keep the momentum and get the ski on a turn edge right after the wakes. Leaning in just makes you narrow. Staying on an accelerating edge or flat make you too fast. The ski has to be on a turn edge and shoulders back. Light pressure on the hand that will soon be taken off the handle.

 

Again, lots of ways to skin the cat, but almost all the top skiers handle this move about the same.

[jjackkrash]

Based on what gavski is saying it sounds like a difference of opinion and perhaps a communication issue is at play; I think the ban was a bit excessive even if a few of the posts were a little over the top, IMHO. But not my site, so . . .

[MDB1056]

Jamie B was / is an amazing skier. One of the best ever, and one of my favorites, but he's said many times that his style is anything but conventional. What worked for Jamie may not work for others. Agree with @Buxrus - the Trent & Rossi podcasts are exceptional at crystallizing specific items that when executed will result in fundamentally better skiing for most everyone.

[Horton]

@gavski Video?