The terminology and descriptions for "short line Rope Handling" are mystifying

[swbca]

The announcer for the 2021 Swiss Pro Slalom event said someone had a "heavy shoulder". Hmm? I replayed the video of that moment a few times and couldn't see what he was talking about.

 

I watched the Freddy Winter Podcast "Speed Swing". After they described rope handling in 3 different ways for the same correct method from the wake to the next ball, I think I figured out what they were saying in a simplified version. If I hadn't replayed this segment several times while taking notes, I still would have no idea of what they were talking about. At first I thought that shoulder towards the boat meant a literal measurement in feet and inches, but that could be the opposite shoulder from what they meant depending on other conditions.

 

For example "the shoulder towards the boat" means If you are going from ball 1 to 2 your left shoulder is towards the boat, before or after the wake (I think) Then there is "the Shoulder closest to the ball" I gave up on what that means.

 

My simplified understanding . . . if skiing from ball 1 to ball 2, use your right shoulder/arm/hand for most of the pulling force (they called it pressure such as 60-40 or 70-30 Right-Left shoulder pull ratio) so the force doesn't tend to unwind your body position limiting your outbound path to be wide & early to decelerate and complete the turn on ball 2.

 

Freddie Winter described this as the most important thing he had ever learned about slalom skiing.

 

So what's a "heavy shoulder" ?

 

I went to two famous name competition ski schools in the 80's. Teenage and other unqualified staff said "looking good" for a week. I am sure times have changed at the schools.

 

 

 

[Drago]

Oh goodness, I'll get the popcorn

[Drago]

 

[S1Pitts]

When I attended trade school we had apprentices from all across western Canada. The terminology for the same thing was as vast and wide as this country. Unless someone writes a ski bible that is adopted globally there will be little chance of standardizing anything but even then I am sure there will be a lot of debate and controversy about even the smallest thing. It's what us humans do.

[MDB1056]

I agree that its very often an issue to try and understand what is being said crystallize it into clear, easy to understand and executable steps. Read the recent thread Are you Serious About Slalom Skiing. @Horton pointed to it as it's about the recent Trent & Rossi podcast The Perfect Path. It's one of THE BEST conversations I've ever heard of compartmentalizing essential steps into clear and easy to understand terms. As I commented on that thread, this is exactly what we need a lot more of for this very reason.

[Deanoski]

swiss was bad IMO, the announcer s safety check , heavy shoulders, they should just be quiet some times.

 

 

Ross was the only one to listen to.

[RGilmore]

@swbca wrote:"My simplified understanding . . . if skiing from ball 1 to ball 2, use your right shoulder/arm/hand for most of the pulling force..."

 

This sounds exactly like what Chris Rossi advocated more than a decade ago when he when introduced the concept in his article "The Power Triangle":

"Our goal at the finish of the turn should be to connect what I call the 'Power Triangle.' It is defined as the outside hand (trailing arm), the outside hip (trailing hip) and the handle. At the completion of a buoy one turn, your right hand will connect to the handle and the handle will connect to your right hip (or slightly below). When done properly, all three will connect at the same time. You will feel your outside elbow tight against your vest. This is very similar to old school skiing except that it is not done with the inside hip and elbow."

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Andre]

Not easy to comment waterskiing for more then 12 hrs straight with 1 bathroom break.

I'd give Tony a break. He works real hard to bring us those high quality webcast.

As for terms use,here's some definitions!

[MDB1056]

+1 for love Tony. He's great behind the mic

[jimbrake]

OK - pay attention - your toe side shoulder .......

[Cnewbert]

I think part of the problem is that front, back, inside, outside, leading, trailing etc. might in some instances be a bit ambiguous without a qualifying point of reference to help orient one's visualization of the movement being described.

[Cam]

@swbca search "back arm pressure" on this forum, starts about 2012 then work your way forward should keep you occupied for a while but I doubt you will learn any thing, hence @Drago 's comment >:)

[Horton]

years ago I tried really hard to get agreement on terminology and you guys ignored me. At this point it means whatever you think it does because you guys are never going to agree.

[scoke]

these threads.

 

 

[Horton]

@scoke my ski smears around the island

[ALPJr]

‘Back arm pressure’ and ‘smear’, simple enough.

[MISkier]

@Horton, yes, but were you skiing behind the 94 Prostar or the bubble butt 196?

[Horton]

@ALPJr SHOULD BE SIMPLE

[Horton]

sorry if I have a bad attitude about this. when the term smear first became popular I embraced it because to me it meant something very enlightening and then every other post that used it used it differently and in my opinion illogically. at which point I just gave up on all of you

[swbca]

"your toe side shoulder" Another expression that has no apparent logic in its origin.

 

Someone told me what it meant a few years ago, but the words themselves don't give a clue.

[Horton]

@swbca going from 1/3/5 to 2/4/6 - your left shoulder is your lead shoulder or down shoulder or back arm

[acmx]

I don't have an arm on my back

[igkya]

@Horton u sure? I recall this site mostly agreeing the back arm as same as trailing (leading vs trailing) whereas the trailing/back arm is the left going into 1,3 & 5 and the right going into 2, 4 & 6.

[ROBOT]

@Horton

[Stevie Boy]

So I am ready to get Hung, Drawn and Quatered, like Horton I wish we could get this settled, I am confused by @swbca , here,s my take on it, put me straight please !

 

So as I come round the bouy #1 and connect with the boat the stronger pull,

should be on my left arm/back arm , left shoulder/outside shoulder as I transition at some point, it is possible but not always, that the pull will transfer to my right arm/trailing arm, right shoulder/inside shoulder, before releasing the handle when I am in line with the bouy.

 

The back arm cannot be the same as the trailing arm, because the back arm is in front of the trailing arm, hence the term trailing.

 

 

I am ready, take me down, because this is how I understand it.

[Deanoski]

Right turn right arm left turn left arm

 

kISS

[MDB1056]

Regardless of whether you are LFF or RFF, discussions can use front foot and back foot, left arm and right arm . Everyone understands onside vs offside. Done…..

[RGilmore]

I'm a big Chris Rossi fan. When Rossi has written about it, he refers to the right arm while going from 1-ball to 2-ball as the "trailing arm" (and vice versa).

 

On a related note, "toe side/heel side" makes sense in wake-boarding, insofar as your feet are actually turned sideways on your board. Meanwhile, on a slalom ski both feet are pretty much pointing forward, so using "toe side" or "heel side" just seems goofy to me. "Offside" and "onside" have been used for decades, and... c'mon man... not everything in our sport needs the BNG treatment.

 

As always, IMO.

[Stevie Boy]

@Deanoski , I am with you, stick with right arm and left arm termonology, Simples !

[swbca]

@RGilmore Thanks for supporting logical terminology. It doesn't help to have 4 illogical names for an arm or shoulder.

 

Two Questions:

1. You have defined the "trailing arm". What do you call the other arm ? which is the left arm when traveling from 1 to 2.

 

2. Then back to "swing" which was the original point in this discussion. When traveling from the wake to ball 2, more "pressure" "pull" etc should be on the "trailing arm" (right arm/shoulder). Is that correct?

 

[Stevie Boy]

@swbca leave it at Pressure, pull is a terrible term, it makes beginners pull on their arms, for me, your analogy would be correct, but at what point would your other arm become the trailing arm, after transition or as you take the load on your right arm from bouy 2 to 3 ?

[Horton]

@swbca until you're getting into nitty-gritty detail for a specific skier you need equal pressure on both arms. A lot of the need to have pressure in one arm of the other is a perception / reality thing.

 

On the dock if you're simulating a lean from 135 to 246 if you take much of the load in your right hand it will seem like that's going to move your whole body further forward into a more powerful position over the ski. Sadly people experience this demonstration and think they've learned something but when you try to put it in the practice it rarely if ever pans out.

 

in the same way skiers will try to put more load into their left shoulder at various places with various amounts of success. again it really depends on what the skier is already doing correctly. generally speaking as a starting place you want equal pressure through both arms.

 

unless you have a powerful stacked athletic position and the handle right next to your body going through center line none of this matters.

[swbca]

@ horton When I played with unequal pressure on land, my biceps on one arm were doing the work. The handle's rope triangle gives way to the unequal pressure requiring a couple of inches of arm pull to actually achieve additional pressure.

 

When I was introduced to the concept of relaxed and straight arms I was encourage I wouldn't have to deal with repeat of a bicep tear years ago that I can still feel when I work out.

[Horton]

@swbca ideally you should not be using any bicep strength from hook up to centerline - ever. your arms should be straight. talking about caring different amounts of loads in different arms or shoulders is really about upper body or shoulder rotation.

 

leaving the second wake if you're going to keep the handle close to your center of my mass inevitably you will use some bicep strength but I think trying to use tricep strength is a much better mindset.

 

I believe the following is a quote from @Chet "your hands are hooks and your arms are chains". in other words don't pull on the handle.

[Horton]

@swbca if I remember your story correctly it has been decades since you skied very much. In that time skis and boats have changed an enormous amount. Back in the days of polyurethane core fiberglass skis and hand drive or perfect pass a strong skier could muscle their way through passes. Those days are gone. The best skiers in the world are fit athletes but nowhere near what was required 20 or 30 years ago. ( I'm not saying the best skiers in the world are not hitting the gym to be as fit as possible I'm saying it's not nearly as big of a factor as it was historically )

[MISkier]

It's too bad that nobody could post a series of pictures with a skier traveling from each side of the course (immediately after hookup, pulling to the wake, at edge change, at cast out, etc.) with an arrow pointing to an arm and a description of what should be happening to that arm. Maybe that technology will exist in the future.

[RGilmore]

@swbca

1) I haven't defined "trailing arm", Chris Rossi has. My assumption would be that "lead arm" or "leading arm" would a be the logical choice for the non-trailing arm.

 

2) Again, I was speaking about Chris Rossi's teaching, not my own (since I don't have a "teaching"). But yes, according to the Rossi article the trailing arm pressure is carried all the way out to the apex of the upcoming turn. (I personally differ with that part).

 

 

[matthewbrown]

The primary concern finishing the turn when the line becomes tight should be, where are my feet in relationship to my body? Are they out in front, underneath me or behind my body? Once you focus on that and get it dialed in, the shoulders usually sort themselves out on their own.

[Drago]

@swbca I didn't watch the podcast, and "rope handling " to me is how you coil it up after a set, but I'll assume it's another term for "handle control", or some similar buzz-word. So to answer your original question:

Going from 1-2 through the wake.

A.If you are coaching/embracing the Super-Stacked, legs-straight, tipped-shoulders, lead-with-your-sternum technique, the back arm/shoulder is your Left. It's away from the boat, back, and theoretically one cannot see it from the boat.

B. If you subscribe to a more "open", level -shoulder, face-the-boat technique, your left arm is Leading, breaking the wind, your right arm is trailing.

With A, the load is all left arm, cuz how could you possibly have any load on your right when it's 2' closer to the boat, right?

With B, the pressure is more even L-R, as your chest is facing the boat.

A heavy shoulder is when you drop your left shoulder massively away from the boat , kind of a lean-lock situation, which with Technique A is good,( I think), and with technique B is bad.

There is no lead, back, or trailing shoulder or arm around the buoy, and they change regardless of technique when the skier passes the apex of the boat.

They aren't illogical terms, there needs to be a way to describe things that enhances your desired outcome and how the student visualizes what the coach is talking about.

*or just keep your hips up and pull hard

[ALPJr]

Well put @Drago