Baller MDB1056 Posted October 7, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 7, 2021 But the rim height hasn’t changed in basketball, and the course and speed for slalom should stay the same too. Hurdles haven’t changed, nor has high jump increments, pool lengths, and the list goes on and on. Go ski…. Set a new record , or just get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted October 8, 2021 Supporting Member Share Posted October 8, 2021 @mike_mapple. True. And the obvious correct choices are Jordan and Andy :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Cooper_Trelawney Posted October 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 8, 2021 I'll take Jordan and Mapple all day every day vs LaBron and Nate Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 8, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 8, 2021 @mike_mapple @dave2ball While your basic point is well taken, it ignores the fact that people will compare them, and unless we are willing to accept a subjective “best of all time,” we need to have objective criteria to use to evaluate each as skiers. I think it is totally legit to use the number of Masters and Worlds wins as the primary criteria because counting those wins shows how each skier fared against the best in the world over a spectrum of time. And the spectrum of time is significant because what we are purporting to determine is the best “of all time.” Okay, that said, Coke or Pepsi? Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted October 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 8, 2021 Pepsi!!!! Number of Masters and worlds, and overall victories (similar to Tiger vs Jack and the number of majors, or Tiger vs Snead with overall wins) is certainly a good way to compare.... Although I think in the case of water skiing, the stat mentioned above regarding the number of 41s run compared to the competition is a valid comparison of each relative to their current competition (adjusting to 39s in Mapple's era?) Either way, while we can say Smith has dominated similarly to Mapple during his time it would take similar longevity to be considered in a GOAT conversation, to which in Smith's case its a TBD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jayski Posted October 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 8, 2021 @lpskier pepsi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted October 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 8, 2021 @lpskier I agree that the worlds masters Moomba are the bars that have been set for the GOAT. it’s the best of the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Garn Posted October 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 8, 2021 First, let me just say that I have a very low opinion of Nate Smith. Not someone that I would want my daughter to date or even be around. I've met him at our boat show a couple of times and he has an air of arrogance about him, unlike someone like Will Asher who just comes across as a humble and nice person. Having said that, I don't see how anyone can say that he isn't the GOAT. I have read all the above arguments and reasons and I don't agree with them at all. To me it sounds like way more people like Andy so they just don't want to give the title of GOAT to Nate even though he skis better than any other person ever has. He has run more 41s than all other competitors combined. I just don't agree with any of your arguments. I can't stand Nate. But he is the GOAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller UCFskier Posted October 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 8, 2021 @Garn I agree with your lead in... when I think of slalom GOAT these are athletes that stand out and will forever be remembered as positively impacting the sport! the LaPoints, Andy, Wade, Asher, Freddie, Rossi. These are champions that went on to positively change slalom forever. Nate is a great skier but no GOAT. His stain on the sport will forever be there unless he positively changes the narrative. when he retires from the sport no one will be lining up for his autograph, he will not be providing color commentating for TWBC, and I suspect he will remembered by few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ski6jones Posted October 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 8, 2021 For such a long time span as "all of waterskiing" the only metric that makes sense is the comparison to contemporaries. So much has changed across the years (boats, skis, speed control, etc) making direct comparisons of actual scores from different eras mostly meaningless. By that metric, ANDY=GOAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BTheis Posted October 8, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 8, 2021 I believe Andy is probably the GOAT, and I think Nate will set the record so high it will stand for a long long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted October 10, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 10, 2021 @lpskier Coke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BG1 Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 Water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller scuppers Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 Coke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 IPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller teammalibu Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 Tequila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller scuppers Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 If we’re going that route than Blanton’s Gold on the rocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jayski Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 @teammalibu I am in disbelief that was your answer lol @The_MS Coke? C'mon man, that 'woke' company...I thought you had morals lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Zman Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 Diet Coke. Or, Woodford Reserve on ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 When it come to cola who cares. Sooooo off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Zman Posted October 10, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 10, 2021 This thread was a mess pages ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MDB1056 Posted October 11, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 11, 2021 agree with @Zman . Another one off the rails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted October 11, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 11, 2021 @jayski I don’t know what the hell I was thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Stevie Boy Posted October 11, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 11, 2021 When I watch the fabulous webcasts that TWBC provide, there is a group of skiers that are capable of running 39off , 41off. Whether you like Nate Smith or not, he makes those passes look smoother and easier than some of the others, That does not take anthing away from the others in that group of Pro,s they still get the job done, if Nate makes it through to a final, they all know that they have their work cut out, this must be a huge mental advantage for Nate. His consistency is second to none, he is one of the Greatest Water Skiers in our time, some may not like it but the stats tell the real story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 11, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 11, 2021 My “Coke or Pepsi” comment was meant to imply that people will prefer one over the other, but they are both great, just like Andy and Nate. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 Time to bring this thread back up..... Still not the numbers/longevity to make a strong GOAT comparison, but those numbers keep climbing..... AGAIN dominating the best in the world, skiing their best, at a world class site, in the biggest tournament there is. AGAIN, while everyone is fighting it out at 3 and 4 at 41....he runs it and gets 1 or 2 at 43 (in every round.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 18, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 18, 2021 Well, another criteria could be margin of victory at Worlds. Interesting to see that data. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Cnewbert Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 Between the prelims and the finals, Nate totaled 7 more buoys than his closest competitor. That's dominance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller scoke Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 Andy was typically the favorite to win and he battled all challengers for the win. Wade, Roberge, Lapoints etc. Nate is the favorite to win at every tourney. How many buoys he wins by is usually the question for the weekend. If he doesn't win, the question is usually, what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 I guess another way to compare this dominance is to look at the competition. F winter, asher, T gas who he's been battling for years are no slouches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller randy meny Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 Nate has run 41 off 150 times and counting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Andre Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 Equipement has change a lot and could justify the different level of scores between Andy and Nate. Every part of gear we own is clearly way better then in the 70-80-90's. Carbon skis are the thing now. Impossible for the LaPoint bros to run into 43 with wooden ski,240 hp,hand driving and more... Add man made lakes to it too.Conditions at the worlds were incredible all week long. My ski finish in 16.95 but my ass is out of tolerance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Cnewbert Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 If Nate has run -41 150 times, what is the most number of -41s his closest competitor has run? All other contemporary Open level tournament skiers combined? Everyone today has access to the same equipment, boats etc. as Nate, so that variable can be eliminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller UCFskier Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 yes nate is a good skier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jordan Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 I don't know the answer, but a possible criteria to consider would be the percentage of wins in competition. I suspect Nate is very high in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 As skiing talent goes--most gifted ever. Just is. If there were no taint--how much easier to say best ever. In a vacuum--best male slalom skier ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller slow Posted October 18, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 18, 2021 Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller VONMAN Posted October 19, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 19, 2021 This is a follow up to two comments I made on the discussion "Long line...short line.. are they really that different?" The first giving 3 tips on improving the skier. The second was about coaching a skier into 41 off under my tag VONMAN. This is a copy of a direct message to @Horton that I sent on my take as to how Mr. Smith does what he does. I've decided to put it on this discussion for your review since I have received no reply. Here it is warts and all. John, in the discussion Long line...short line.. are they really that different? I was trying to give some help to a beginner skier and you replied back to me "I think "work zone behind the boat" is an antiquated idea. The skier must keep the ski on edge through the second wake but it is better to make speed early and maintain than it is to go hard at the first wake." So I followed up with a coaching story of a skier I helped get into 41 off. That's crazy right! how can a 71 year old man who doesn't ski in competition know anything and I get that. So I'm sure that you have been watching the Worlds Men Final. Watching skiers struggle to run a full pass at 41 off only to have Mr. Smith run 38,39.5 and 41 off like a lot of skiers 35 off. Yes Dane did run 41off and 1 @43 off and I was cheering for him to do it again, but the planets didn't align again. Mr. Smith has figure out how to run ultra short line not thru brute strength, but by understanding the physics needed to make the pass controllable. By all means don't believe me, but listen to Matt Rainey's observation of Mr. Smiths final set of the competition. My theory on the rope angle exceeding 45 degrees is why and how Mr. Smith can do what he does with such ease. That and longer ski to carry him around the ball to a softer stack point. That's why I'm always saying go out and free ski and run the line up to 41off. (even 43 off). You will see things that you would never learn in the course. But what do I know, I'm Nobody, but I love skiing. Ernie Schlager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller scuppers Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 @Horton & @VONMAN I notice that most of the posters that claim to have “the Secret” to Shortline skiing - always talk (write in riddles. It’s difficult to understand what your saying here @VONMAN. It would help if you diagram it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 20, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 20, 2021 Coordinates! Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller scuppers Posted October 20, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 20, 2021 What does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 20, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 20, 2021 “Coordinates” was the alleged technique used by Jim Micheal’s to explain why he could run super short rope while not looking like he was far enough up on the boat. In reality, “coordinates” was a long rope when not at home and a narrow course (only when it was his turn to ski) when skiing at home. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller scuppers Posted October 21, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2021 Oh yea ! I remember that - now that guy was something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jtim3032 Posted October 21, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2021 @lpskier also "coordinates" was a term used by Steve Schnitzer to describe skiing a "minimum distance" path through the course, ie following straight lines to points approximately 6' ahead of each buoy and turning on a 10' radius. It was an interesting idea but still didn't address trying to minimise loads on the line. In nature, the most efficient path through the course (constant acceleration perpendicular to the direction of the boat and therefore minimum forces involved) would be a sine wave and we haven't yet designed a ski that could achieve this. But I digress from the subject in hand.... :smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ral Posted October 21, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 21, 2021 The “coordinates” of each buoy needed to be 20 inches inside their usual place… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 22, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 22, 2021 @Jtim3032 Yup. Those are the coordinates Dr J was talking about. Interestingly, I would say that GUT is the polar opposite of coordinates. @AdamCord @adamhcaldwell ? Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 @lpskier which shouldn’t be confused with Polar Coordinates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller VONMAN Posted October 22, 2021 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2021 It has nothing to do with Coordinates. It is my take on how Nate make's makes 41 off look easy. Ernie Schlager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 22, 2021 Administrators Share Posted October 22, 2021 I don't know if I should ban the subject of coordinates or if I should break out the popcorn Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted October 22, 2021 Baller_ Share Posted October 22, 2021 Coordinates started (in this discussion) as a joke. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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