Decline of skiing... on snow

[ToddL]

There are some parallels in this to water skiing. (I hope you can get past the narrator's upspeak inflection.)

 

_

[swbca]

The video documented the problems with resort traffic and revenue very well in spite of the resort business including skiers and snow borders in their revenue and metrics. Water skiing has a more difficult challenge maintaining participation, because we don't count wake boarders as skiers. If I counted skiers and wake borders on our Minnesota lakes, participation is not in decline. The lakes are flooded with boats, but mostly wake boats.

 

The other advantage resorts have, snow skiing is age agnostic. Snow Skiers may have 3 generations skiing as a family group ages 5 to 80 and all close enough in ability to maintain the same pace on most of the mountain. BOS may have the only grandparents water skiing with their grand kids.

 

The other advantage ski resorts have or water skiing . . . snow skiing happens at a vacation or weekend destination, where friends and families from all over the county reunite for a full range of activities to enjoy together. I can't think of a parallel experience in water skiing.

 

Cost, access and competing interests are common with snow and water. Initiatives to promote water skiing have been discussed elsewhere in this forum, but the parallels to ski resort traffic are limited. Still looking for ways to improve water ski participation.

[ToddL]

The other difference is recreational (snow) industry vs what we see as water skiing (mostly competitive).

[lpskier]

@ToddL

Mostly competitive? I think AWSA membership is about 50/50 competitive/recreational. All skiers that do not belong to USAWSWS are recreational (they have to belong to USAWSWS in order to compete). I don’t have data to back it up but I’d say the vast majority of water skiers are recreational. Or am I missing your point?

[Drago]

I agree with @lpskier big time. Recreational "water sports " must have 1,000 x participation over tournament skiers.

"We" generally think of "our sport" as tournament waterskiing, (I think). I guess that would need to compare to ski racing, or all competitive snow sports? (Which is now all that park crap, freestyle, cross, pipe, racing ...)

[swbca]

@ToddL I think its hard to attract young competitors unless they are a member of a family that is in the business of competitive water skiing . . . or if Mom and Dad are dedicated tournament officials and their kids grew up at the tournaments and the parents can provide access to the competitive sport.

 

The collegiate programs look good but am guessing those kids were competitors before college.

[unksskis]

@swbca collegiate programs often take the "recreational" skier being referred to, and expose them to competitive skiing, its a common occurrence.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

The vast majority of collegiate skiers are recreactional/beginning skiers who previously had little to no exposure to competitive skiing. If I was to guess, I would say that 1 or 2 out of 10 collegiate skiers were competitive before college. One of the unwritten rules for many collegiate skiers is that the first time they go over the jump is in a tournament.

 

By far the best hope to "grow the sport" of competitive skiing (or at least slow the decline) is to promote collegiate skiing and get those kids hooked.

[ToddL]

I guess what I meant by that is the problem described for snow skiing in that video is focused 100% recreational.

[JayShower]

I can tell you that I was a recreational skier before collegiate skiing, and now I am absolutely hooked

[GaryJanzig]

I think water skiing is dying a slow death. It will always be around in some form, but it is getting too expensive for the average person to afford(especially competition, 100K for new boats etc.) On my lake the skiers over the years have been selling their homes and moving elsewhere or leaving the sport. On a lake of 600 homes I think there are only 10 of us who use the slalom course regularly, and I am the only one that does tournaments. My boat is the oldest of the ones that use the course on a regular basis. The people moving in are very wealthy. Some paying 500K+ for a property, tearing down the home and building a new one. Pontoon boats make up the majority of the new boats. There are quite a few surf boats on the lake. Fortunately most don't get used much. I have offered to teach many of the new people ski. There has been very little interest. Most of the people have 200k+ surf boats and they still pull tubes around most of the time. I see a few people riding combos and an occasional open water slalom skier, but fewer each year. The skiing crowd on the lake has become less friendly also. Some will never give a pull, or hop boats to drive or spot. The trend I am seeing is the interest in the sport is dying. There is a woman I spoke with at a tournament. She said she and her husband are the only skiers left on their lake, and it is a private ski lake designed for a course. The rest of the residents are not skiers since the rest of moved away.

 

[klindy]

@GaryJanzig you said “skiing is getting too expensive” yet you’re the only tournament skier with one of the oldest boats. The other 599 are buying up properties, tearing them down and using $200k surf boats to pull a tube ….. sound to me like you’ve got the most cost effective option!

 

When I was growing up we scrapped and saved and did what we had to to get a pull. If we wanted to ski, we found a way. Malibu Boats had $265.9 million in sales for the second quarter. MasterCraft had $153.7 million in sales for the second quarter. Correct Craft is a private and I don’t know what their sales are. I’m know all three make multiple models and have several brands. The average price per boat for any of these companies is well over 2-3 times what a fully loaded waterski boat costs. And they build very few ski boats. Lake properties around the country sell about as fast as they are listed. I’m having a really hard time understanding how waterskiing is “too expensive” when it’s literally cheaper than anything else you can do on the water.

[behindpropellers]

Greed.

 

Just look at the way Vail is operating.

 

Nevele Ski Resort... Do you think the previous owners put money back into improving the resort? Nope.

 

Unfortunately, its all about shareholder value these days.

 

 

[klindy]

@behindpropellers its always shareholder value (more accurately stakeholder value). But to your point, short terms profits typically come at the expense of long term shareholder value. Of course premium lift ticket prices are important but they can only do that if the quality of the experience is valuable enough to the customer. Obviously it still is.

 

I recently went to Disney and it was $168 for a one day basic pass to one park! I thought it was expensive but I paid it and the park was packed (40-60 min waits on all rides). People are paying the prices without much slowing down.

[lpskier]

@swbca Neither of my kids competed before college but both did in college. My daughter was 2014 D2 women's collegiate jump champion, medaled in slalom and overall and was top 10 in trick.

[jgills88]

One of the big points in the video is about how a pattern of less snow in the winter is hurting snow ski numbers. This makes me wonder, could watersports be the response to that issue? Could an increase in warm days in the year create a demand for warmer skiing and snowboarding options? The answer to those demands wouldn't be tournament ski centered resorts, but cable park resorts could be an option.

 

Cable parks follow the ski-mountain business plan by selling equipment rentals and Season passes to make a profit. I'd imagine that a luxury cable park similar to a ski resort could be profitable and drive interest in watersports as a vacation, or weekend trip. I don't think it would ever happen due to the necessary capital, and insane amount of risk this hunch would bring both in liability and on your investment

[scuppers]

Water skiing is hard - it’s work, so is snow skiing and even worse snow boarding. Tubbing is easy. Computers and video games even easier.

Millennials, Gen X,Y, & Z‘ers. Are not gonna do it. You could give them a free boat, skis and a lake house- still not gonna happen. I have a bunch of rental properties so I see how they live and think. Argue this all you want but I bet the decline is pervasive across all sports

[lpskier]

To @scuppers ’s point, golf participation is down in the 21st century.

 

https://cdn.cybergolf.com/images/1867/Golf-Part-Future-in-Am-2010-20--99MR2051-NGF.pdf

[Deanoski]

snow skiing is up big time in the last two yrs over 59 million skier days in 20-21

[slow]

I don’t know the date of that video but ski resorts are mobbed this year. Both both big and small.

Both my kids competitively ski raced but I don’t think that is a driver for the broad market of snow skiing. Hybrid work environment is exploding resort towns right now.

 

[ALPJr]

I sure don’t see any decline in enthusiasm, talent, and comradery in the Olympic snow sports.

[GaryJanzig]

@klindy I looked at buying a new boat over the years, but I could not justify the expense. My boat still runs like a Swiss watch. The only thing wrong with it is that it is obsolete since it does not have ZeroOff. When the time comes I will repower and retrofit ZeroOff. I could pay for that in 3-4 years. I can't pay cash for a boat, and I can't justify taking out a 10-15 year loan on a depreciating asset. There is a small group of enthusiasts at tournaments like myself, but out on most lakes there are very few.

[braindamage]

Good comments fro all, especially the difference between recreational snow and water skiing. You can even tube down some hills.

 

I think the biggest difference is that snow skiing is both social and can be done all day. I love talking with my friends and meeting others on the lift, hanging out in the lodge, and apres ski. Everyone is friendly and willing to engage and enjoy the day.

 

I love getting up at sunrise to spend 45 mins waterskiing with my 1-2 buds, but it lacks the ever present social all day validation of snow skiing. I think this is one of the reasons that surfing has taken off. All day social event.

[braindamage]

Also-I grew up 10 mins from a decent sized midwestern ski hill. They have arrangements with the local elementary schools that bus kids 1/week, provide rentals, a lesson, and a pass that goes until 9pm for super cheap. They’ve been doing this for decades. Everyone I know can at least ski and a lot of us got the bug big time.

 

If we really want to grow the sport…think about establishing similar things with the private ski lakes with a course.

[Drago]

Vail ⬆️ Epic passes are dirt cheap and they sold 75% more this year

[BrennanKMN]

In these threads I always see that collegiate skiing is the 'solution' to the problem. I would be really curious to learn the post graduate numbers of skiers. How many people in the 22-30 year old range are skiing in any form (free, course, tournament)?

 

I always read that collegiate skiing is the way to get them hooked, and I agree to some extent. However, at the current cost barrier it is nearly impossible to keep them hooked. After they graduate they either need to find some very welcoming friends or need some serious cash that no recent grad will have. Yes they don't need a new boat, but any boat and a vehicle to haul it, plus a place to keep it and the cost to operate it adds up.

 

By the time a lot of these 'hooked' former collegiate skiers have the time, money and resources to ski I recon they will be in a different point in their lives. If it is a true passion/priority in your life you can always make it happen, but I seriously doubt more than 10-20% of colligate skiers will return to the sport after they left school.

 

 

 

[Horton]

If there are a lot less snow resorts and then there is a surge in demand the resorts left will be over full. I think it is like Golf. A huge percent of the golf courses in the US closed in the last 20 years. Now, with the market disruptions caused by Covid the golf courses left are booming. That does not mean there as many golfers as there were 10 or 20 years ago.

 

In my mind the "sport" of water skiing is not all about those of us that compete. Count the number of slalom courses in the world that are used and I will tell you how we are doing. Clearly the number of people competing is way down. It is two very different metrics.

[Horton]

@BrennanKMN

You hit the nail on the head. College skiers represents a huge opportunity for us to bring in the next generation of competitive skiers but if they can not afford it then we lose them.

[Cnewbert]

The biggest difference re: potential that I see is capacity. A given ski slope, even a small one, can accommodate hundreds of skiers over the course of a day. A large slope on a big mountain can handle thousands, and ski mountains may have dozens of different runs. How many water skiers can a single dedicated ski lake handle daily? Let's assume a meaningful day of slalom skiing might be, say, 3 sets, 6-8 passes per set. So maybe each set is around 15 minutes per skier. Just a single skier might then monopolize the lake for around 45 minutes over the course of the day. There are only so many hours in a day, and even if the boat ran continuously, never stopping for fuel, to change drivers, for lunch... for anything... a ski lake can only handle a very few skiers per day. If there were 12 hours of daylight, this lake could offer just 16 skiers quality ski time. Obviously I've pulled some numbers out of the air to illustrate the problem as I see it. You can double that number of skiers and the fact remains an entire ski lake has very very low skier capacity and the number of dedicated ski lakes is certainly limited. Public lakes might be bigger, but they suffer from rollers generated by other boat traffic, so the number of skiers who can enjoy a quality slalom ski experience on a public lake is also extremely limited. Just waiting for a roller-free window for a single pass can take a while. I just don't see how this sport can accommodate large numbers of participants even if the interest was there.

[swbca]

@klindy

Gary Janzig wasn't comparing the cost of competitive water skiing to the cost of a new Wake Boat. I believe he was addressing the cost of competitive water skiing in comparison to other endeavors which could include competitive snow skiing, biking, tennis, adult team leagues etc. which have almost no capital cost.

 

Comparing two adult sports

2 years ago my 55 year old brother in law decided to get into competitive bicycle racing. He went all-in with training at his physical limits like a good one event competitive skier. It probably cost him $3000 to get into the sport.

 

One year ago I decided to start over with competitive skiing after a 30 year break. We had a lake and a very old dock with no place for a second boat. Doing it on the cheap, I spent $27,000 for a used ski boat, $24,000 for a new dock (installed), $10,000 on a used boat lift and $4000 in skiing related equipment including a slalom course, and an OffCourse. It wasn't all that cheap because new lake-side equipment almost doubled in cost in the Covid-Summer of 2021.

 

Another cost factor . . . Their are fewer barriers to unlimited practice in most other competitive sports. It's an unspoken truth that the best competitive "no-name" water skiers can be in the top 3 in their Region and have a few National titles because, in part, they have unlimited access to practice.

 

If you are determined to be the best you can be, having unlimited to access to water ski practice that is convenient enough to co-exist with family life and a full time job is usually expensive. It usually means you live on, or very close to a lake with a course. This is obviously less true with other competitive adult sports that have public facilities everywhere.

[Mastercrafter]

Beating a dead horse here but it's better than the SS thread. If we are talking about course skiing:

 

Population of Michigan over 18yrs old: 7,000,000+

 

Ski Sites in Michigan according to Google Earth File: 14. Lets quadruple it to include unknown public lake courses, so 56.

 

If every site hosted 10 skiers per day, that's 560 skiers.. which in reality is still wayyyyyy more than what's realistic.

 

560/7,000,000 = 0.00008% of the Michigan population over 18yrs has access to a course.

 

One small northern Michigan ski hill states their chairlift capacity is 22,000 per day, or .003% of population over 18yrs. That's 40 times the capacity of "all ski sites" in Michigan, with just one of many hills.

 

Realistically, there's 14 dedicated ski lakes. If they each had 20 members, that's 280 skiers in the entire state that have access to a real ski site. Except for Forest Lake in South Haven, I'm not aware of any site in Michigan that lets Joe Public show up and book a set.

 

As we all know, accessibility is a huge issue. Accessibility aside, the 700 acre lake I live on is lined with houses, packed to the brim with docks and boats, and there's about 6 of us that ski. Most have pontoons that cost as much as a decent ski tug, or surf boats that cost double. Cost is not the issue. Interest and the willingness to live a healthy life is the biggest issue. I continually hear "I've gained too much weight to ski now" from guys who used to tear it up back in the day.

[ToddL]

That video was posted in 2020. When reviewing a few of the top comments on YouTube for that video, there is this juxtaposition of "too expensive" and "too crowded". If it is too crowded, then the demand exceeds desired capacity. If it is too expensive, then demand would not fill available capacity.

 

What has happened in terms of cost and demand is the disparity between lower-middle class and upper-middle class is growing. I see this in all non-essential activities, like sport events and concerts. The ticket prices keep rising because the upper-middle class has more disposable income and are enjoying that income at these past times. As long as the upper-middle class population is sufficient to fill all of the available capacity, the prices will remain "high" in the eyes of the lower-middle class and below.

[ToddL]

With regards to collegiate skiers as a source of growth, this is the most untapped opportunity in AWSA. Several ideas:

 

Offer a free 5-year membership upon graduation. Include an entry fee reimbursement up to $100 good in the 1st, 3rd, and 5th year.

 

Collaborate with NCWSA to capture permanent residence (parent) address and contact info from skiers along with graduation year. Each year, query this database for skiers who graduated 10 years ago. Send them a free membership and an offer to purchase a 3-year renewal at half-price. Include last years and current year regional guide and other local contact information.

 

Using the same graduate database, each year query for those who graduated 15 years ago. Send them an invitation for a free family membership along with regional guides, and information about junior development contacts and events in their region.

[swbca]

@Mastercrafter This is off topic buy you and others mentioned the popularity of Pontoon Boats. Don't they know that a Pontoon Boat makes you look 30 years older they day you take delivery. Its really hard to be cool in a Pontoon boat and they're a bitch to land.

 

IMO Ski boats are the best all around family boat. We serve happy hour and meals in our ProStar frequently. It comfortable for up to 10 people. Nobody minds sitting on the gunnels after bootleg or two.

[DW]

@Drago - The Vail resort lift line pics seem to be a very popular thing to post, and for sure Vail has misfired on managing a few resorts. I just returned from skiing 30+ days in Colorado, mostly Epic joints (Vail, Beaver Creek, Keystone, etc) and a couple Ikon (Aspen's). Lift lines, pretty much non existent, most of the time I could ski right up to the lift and get on, many times on an empty chair. A few 4-5 minutes waits on MLK weekend, and actually longer the following weekend when it seemed like most of Mexico City came up over their holiday weekend (and they were equipped to the max, serious $$). My takeaways - they may have sold lots of Epic passes but skier traffic is not any higher than in previous years, and the South Americans are clearly taking advantage of any snow on the mountains and spending time on the hill. I had an excellent time, lots of vertical so not the disaster as reported on social media. Unfortunately it does appear it is challenging to get employees to actually come to work, the ski patrollers were collecting garbage at the end of the day, sadly. It seems to me, and as noted my lake has also transformed from skiable boats to a slew of pontoons, North Americans are less interested in physical activity outside the 12 oz curls. That may be the most significant hurdle to participation.

Coolest thing, 3 days 2 F16's buzzed the mountain as in very low to the top of the hill. Somebody in the know commented the terrain mirrored terrain they need to be training for. The noise shook the chair and your body.

[unksskis]

@DW

most of the Vail resorts have not fully opened their terrain, so more people and less mountain is the main frustration. Staying up in the mountains helps avoid the nightmare I-70 has become. Yes, the Vail area has been heavily invested into by Latin America.

[Hallpass]

While aging demographic may be a problem for recreational snow skiing, I don't think it's an

issue for competitive snow skiing.

 

In competitive snow skiing the vast majority of competitors are the youth, ages 9-22 (and those numbers drop significantly after age 15). For example, there are over 700 kids competing at Palisades Tahoe (Squaw Valley). I doubt there are even 20 of their parents who still compete.

There are master and adult programs, but the numbers are far smaller than the kids.

 

I think I have read here that the majority of competitive water skiers are 30-60 year olds, and

primarily men. The number of kids is very small.

 

Feels to me as though waiting till college is too late to get them hooked on Water Skiing. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

 

 

[BrennanKMN]

@ToddL

 

Personally, if AWSA reached out to me when I was 25 and offered a free membership I'd laugh in their face.

 

The cost of a membership is basically a non-issue if you actually want to ski tournaments. It is the cost of everything else, both monetary and time. Not to even mention access to practice.

[ToddL]

@BrennanKMN - yep. I hear ya.

[Hucklefin]

@DW Exactly, this is probably going to REALLY shock you, but this is for sure just a sensationalist 'news'/instagram thing. I'm fairly confident that the only time that ever happens is when a lift shuts down for issues during Christmas or something similar. Supposedly tons more epic passes sold, but I was in Vail last weekend with 7+ inches of fresh snow and didn't see a decently long lift line until probably 1:30Pm. And even then, I got on the lift within 10 minutes easily. I can believe that they sold too many passes and some days get pretty busy, but again, I think its mostly just an overblown social media issue. Stuff is expensive on the hill for sure. No one is stopping you from bringing a sandwich from home. My 5 day epic pass was $65 a day. I don't believe for one second that snow skiing is dying.

 

 

[jgills88]

@Hallpass i agree with what you're saying, I think that the biggest challenge with reaching kids before college would be getting kids from school to the lake when their parents haven't waterskied before. Someone above you mentioned the various school snowski clubs that have been set up and basically take kids to mountains and teach them how to ski with their friends. Maybe a system like that for schools could work for building up access for kids to the sport

 

On your point for college being too late, it is late, but it's also the first chance for many people who didn't grow up skiing to be exposed to the sport, and if we survey those in that 30-60 age group you mentioned, it might be interesting to see when they started skiing. Post-college expenses hurt retention, but it's very possible that the younger people in that age group picked up competitive skiing in college, saved up for a boat and water, and came back. It's not a perfect system (or possibly even a good one), but I can see the benefit of growing through college teams

[ToddL]

I suspect the rise in epic passes are skiers who typically skied 1-2 trips and the epic pass lower cost was close enough to "buy up" for a possible 3rd trip. These 1-3 trip skiers don't ski daily, weekly, monthly. Rather, they bring their families when the kids are out of school. So, the peak times are just more crowded. The random days/weeks while school is in session likely will not be over crowded. Further, the traditional season pass holders got pretty mad about how things were handled during covid and many did NOT renew. All-in-all, this transition from typical season pass holders to "new" season pass holders may have been a good strategy for Epic/Vail. More passes sold to people who will not use them as heavily or no where near their full capability. The downside is that if Epic/Vail raise their pass prices back to "normal", many of these new pass holders will not renew.

[GaryJanzig]

If you have a downhill ski facility near where you live it is cheaper than water skiing.

 

[Hallpass]

@jgills88 good points. For 25 years I lived in Discovery Bay, CA, a waterfront community with the majority of the houses on the water. Yet, the majority of the kids don't ski, wakeboard, or surf. There are no organized programs for the kids through school or otherwise. The kids constantly complain there is nothing to do (rolls eyes).

 

By contrast, I moved to Lake Tahoe last year. Almost every kid can snow ski or snowboard, and most do so regularly. Almost every high school within 100 miles has a snow ski team, and many also have snowboard teams.

 

[lpskier]

In my community in NY, I can buy a single mountain non-holiday season pass at Whiteface Mountain, a big East Coast ski center, for $650 and my season locker rental (where I store skis, boots, etc.) is $275 for a total of $925 a year. I can join a beautiful municipal course for $224 a year with a locker and I can join the best club in the Adirondacks with 45 holes for $900 with a locker and bag storage.

 

Boat slips at the marina are $4250 a season with a parking spot for your car and one time $10,000 fee (that goes to a not for profit winter sports program) to get the slip in the first place. There is a huge waiting list.

[braindamage]

@BrennanKMN I have 7 people I ski with, all but 2 are ex-collegiate skiers. It’s a lot about access and making the time with competing young family/early career pressures.

 

One even got into our rotation by putting a note on my buddy’s windshield complimenting his MC.

[braindamage]

I was skiing with my brother yesterday and marveling about how snowboarding probably saved the sport of snow skiing. 30 years ago on the hill I skied there was no jumps, half pipe, rails, etc and if ski patrol saw you trying to do those things or ski in the woods then they’d take away your ticket. Now it’s pervasive and the next generation continues to enjoy the sport.

 

Maybe our focus should be to:

1) get people into boats so they can see that water sports is a thing

2) get people onto skis, tubes, surfboards, wakeboards so they experience lots of options

3) be deliberate about catching them when they go to college to get them onto the team

4) be deliberate about connecting them post college with people with courses so they don’t lose the bug.

 

Edit: I loved skiing as a young man but didn’t even know that collegiate skiing was a thing until I was too far into my coursework to change, then wasn’t ever able to find anyone to ski with once I was out of college. That was 30 years ago and we have so much better social networking technology that I assume it would be easier to make these connections.

[Mastercrafter]

A question for the brain trust:

 

As individuals, how do we cover our asses getting new people on the water? I don't want to assume everyone is out there waiting for a lawsuit and I surely don't worry about my regular ski friends, but what about the unknown person on a public lake who says "I'd love to learn to ski"? It's a perfect opportunity but there is risk involved as well.

 

I emailed AWSA two-ish years ago and from what I remember, they didn't offer any type of insurance options but pointed me to BoatUS, which was something like $3000 per year for ski school insurance. Not a viable option for me.

 

In lieu of that, I was able to add a $2M umbrella policy to my State Farm bundle for something like $12/month, which is reasonable and also covers just about anything I can do to get in trouble. I did specify that my biggest concern was towed watersports, both at home and at clubs/events, and my agent said I'm covered.

 

Good solution or is there something better and more specific?

 

 

 

 

[lpskier]

Insurance is the best solution. Getting a new skier to sign a release is also a great idea, whether the skier is a beginner or not.

[lakeaustinskier]

I just returned from skiing a week in Utah. Snow skiing/boarding is alive and well in Utah.

 

In my opinion almost every successful ski resort does not really care about people actually skiing - all of the money is made with real estate sales/rentals. Yes - the older resorts that are not built on this model will probably suffer, go out of business, or be absorbed.

 

Utah actually has two NEW resorts opening (probably next year) - Mayflower on the backside

of Deer Valley and Wasatch Peaks Ranch near Snowbasin. Wasatch is super interesting - reportedly it will be completely private and NOT open to the public (only owners and investors). Homesites/memberships are rumored to start around 5 million each (not a typo).

 

Sad? Yes, but actual participation (skiing/boarding) is not the current business model for this sport.