Understanding rope stretch

[Slalom.Steve]

All of the recent talk about rope brands has highlighted for me an aspect of ski gear that I do not understand, and that is rope stretchiness. There are ropes that are stiffer and ropes that stretch more, ok. But what is "good" and what is "bad," what is "forgiving" vs what is "performance," how does one distinguish "higher quality" from "lower quality," etc?

 

It seems like the general vibe is that stretchy ropes are more forgiving on the body but less ideal for pure performance. But then why is Masterline's top-of-the-line competition rope the most stretchy one (the Optimized 2.0)? And if stiff ropes are better for performance, why do people say to replace ropes once or even twice a year or else they become "dead." I've also seen some comments that certain ropes are lower quality because they are too stretchy, but again, I don't understand the correlation, when there are expensive stretchy ropes too.

 

It's not my intent to have this turn into a debate about specific brands being better or worse, or whether a brand's pricing is fair or not (that's being handled elsewhere lol). I just want to better understand in general the pros and cons about rope stretch or stiffness. I ask in part just to know more about gear, but also because I'll need a new rope before too long and have no idea what to target. I'm skiing 32-34mph, 15off and taking looks at 22off, I'm 34 years old and in good health. I've been on the Masterline regular mainline rope (not pro or optimized).

[jhughes]

And at various line lengths. A 15 or 22 offer is dealing with way more rope than someone at 38. It's not even the same planet as far as what's going on at short vs long line and 18 feet less of whatever the line is.

[Drago]

@jhughes is right on there ⬆️

@SlalomSteve , one man's stretchy is another man's firm. Let's say elongation is 5%, that's 3 feet @ 15 off, only 20" @ 41 off.

So me at -15 and 200# compared to Nate at -41 and 150# (wild guess) are definitely two different "feels".

Quality is really consistency and accuracy, but I'll call a stretchy rope "crap" all day long , even though a stretchy rope made by one of the 3, or 4, specific rope-only builders is of high quality.

Back-in-the-day, AM liked s "stretchy " rope, Kjellander used Makai, which was more like a cable.

Imho, for a tournament a stiffer rope would be more fair to all, the stiffness doesn't effect a light skier as much as the softness effects the heavy skier. When I know I’m going to a lake that has stretchy ropes, I train with that rope for a week or so

[MattP]

People talk about the feeling of stretch off the buoy a lot but forget about rebound rate off the 2nd wake which in my opinion is just as important. There are a lot of people who know way more than I do about ropes so hopefully they chime in.

[oneski]

I think MattP is dead-on. The rebound (or unloading) of a “stretchy” rope during the edge change bothers me much more than the stretch (give) when you load off the buoy.

[UWSkier]

For me as a 250 lb skier starting at 22 off, a stretchy rope is super disconcerting when you go to make your initial moves of pulling out, gliding, and turning in. It feels like I'm going to tip right over on my left side and I end up with way too much lean angle on my pullout, then get sprung up like it's a bungee cord as soon as I start to let up on the intensity at the start of the glide. Yes, I can recalibrate my mental lean angle vs intensity expectations, but even correcting for that, a big body puts a lot of energy into a springy rope that has to go somewhere when trying to get free of the boat.

[swbca]

Why isn't there a single specification for slalom rope ? Going to a tournament and getting a stretchy rope when you practice with a solid rope can be a real disadvantage.

 

This problem was solved in the early 70's when AWSA contracted to have official AWSA polypropylene rope made. Compared to the the random polyethylene ropes on the market at the time, it had very little stretch. Ropes are much stronger now but stretch specs for tournaments could still be standardized.

[Drago]

@swbca --there was a % elongation spec that magically disappeared after the Optimized rope appeared

[BlueSki]

To @MattP’s point, I have played with different letter settings on ZO since using the ML Opt line. That wasn’t what triggered me to mess around with settings, but I wonder if a more controlled rebound is one reason I have liked the change.

[scoke]

@MattP

Spot on regarding the rebound. As a taller skinny goofy guy, this is where I felt it, off second spray.

 

Basically in south Florida the chatter was the differential of:

Soft to load-Quick to unload

Quick to load-Soft to unload.

 

I can't stand the #1 of above which were the gimmick ropes, i mean optimized ropes.

 

[03RLXi]

When you're all talking stretchy, how much in real terms do they stretch? Actual measured stretch distance in millimetres or inches when at maximum load compared to minimum load

[Drago]

Feet

[03RLXi]

Feet? So the pros are dealing with a rope stretching and changing in length by roughly the amounts of their shortenings. WOW!

And for humble me (who is likely pulling less than half the max load they do) on 18.25m, 15' off, probably about the same stretch. Never knew. Thought stretch would be less than 0.1m

 

 

[liquid d]

Feet at full length, not when you get to 39/41....maybe 3-4 inches. Disclaimer- i have not put a gauge on it at 39/41.

[Drago]

@liquid d - yeah, much less at shortline, but that's at 44 lbs, a big open skier pulls 800 lbs+ (?)

Anyway, it's more than most think.

Optimized is about 20%*sarcastic font*

[Slalom.Steve]

It seems the majority of people don't really like much stretch. So why is the Optimized 2.0 used at so many tournaments?

[BigSpray]

@Drago the possibility of a rope that is tied correctly and the correct length stretching feet is veruley impossible. Need to see proof.

[BigSpray]

Maybe this conversation should of been had prior to the bashing of a new rope company as a school/life project and placing a new rope company with no real history of quality or longjetivy on a pedastoll

Per slalom Steve from is post at the beginning

“There are ropes that are stiffer and ropes that stretch more, ok. But what is "good" and what is "bad," what is "forgiving" vs what is "performance," how does one distinguish "higher quality" from "lower quality," etc? “

Very interesting.

 

[Drago]

@BigSpray . Grab one of the 3 new ropes you have been comparing, tie off the handle end, attach long line to a strain gauge, and add 800#.

Let us know,

Thanks!

[skialex]

Wow…For a guy that was out for 15 years… you picked it up really fast!

A rope out of the box, it usually hurts my scores (classic loops, slide.. not so much)

A dead rope also hurts my scores at a degree… I like quality stuff when it comes to my skiing, Chinese ropes of some other brands, are not my preference. ML Deluxe and opt2 are really good quality ropes and now s lines are also of the same high quality.

As far as this topic, I’m reading with great interest and thinking of giving a try at the less stretchy ropes, in relation to what it feels off the second wake and the way to the buoy.

[BigSpray]

Never stopped skiing. Just did not ski tournaments

[BigSpray]

@drago let’s clearly here are saying under a load a 60 foot 15 off of greater will stretch feet or will stays stretched out feet? Under a load yes I can see that. After a set and remeasuring the rope I don’t see the rope staying that long.

[Drago]

Nope, not what I said.

[APB]

ML or BIGSPRAY….. whatever. I do know this shit is most hilarious.

[dave2ball]

@Drago if I remember correctly Makai was an off shoot of straight line when George Chickerolli was the owner. It was the first 80 plus’s strain rope. It may of been 100 strain. It was great until 32 off then it got a bit too stiff for most skiers.

[ALPJr]

What happened to Straightline?

[dave2ball]

@ALPJr not really sure. After the owner passed away I believe they were purchased by corporate company. I believe they are still around not sure. Diffidently not in the mainstream

[Drago]

@dave2ball --I think you're correct and my guess is 100 strand.(!) George had health problems and Makai didn't last long. Did he own Straightline, sell it off and start makai ?

Straightline became crap and MasterLine saved the day. Freestyler was in there somewhere

[dave2ball]

@Drago George past of CA. cancer. George just started an off shoot with makai.the bare footer Scott PellAton was involved with straight line but I don’t know to what degree. I do know they built ropes in there garages when starting out. I believe a corporate company bought them sometime after George past.

I just posted I believe they’re still around but not mainstream. Not quite sure.

George was a class guy. Talked quite a bit with him at the SF boat shows.

[ALPJr]

We used SL mostly mid 90’s to mid 2000’s. Mostly using InTow since then. New ropes have always felt a little rubber bandy to me the first few sets.

[vtmecheng]

I wonder if the switch from PerfectPass to Zero off made a difference too. PP let’s you pull the boat around some, essentially softening things up. Zero Off and modern engines will throttle up with the load. Does the softer rope help keep things smoother with Zero Off?

[liquid d]

Yes, the switch from PP to zo made changes. With PP , you could slow the boat quite a bit and get the rebound off the 2nd wake to shoot you up on the boat easier. That's the thought behind the stretchy ropes, but they don't quite work the same way.

ZO is so quick to react, and new motors are more powerful. So, the speed swing is much less. The stretchiness can help some skiers, BUT I think the main thing is trying to ski with the same % of stretchiness that you can.

I know I've skied with certain ropes too long...they go from a certain amount of stretchy to nothing at all...steel cables. It's added another variable.

I ski with a guy that came to ski with a new rope. He went from running deep 39 to missing 38 after 38. He got super frustrated, and about 5 days later, he mentioned his rope was new. We put my old rope back on, and he went right back to mid/deep 39. Pay attention to all your changes.

[Ray]

Another question that is unclear for me is the relationship between the starting "softness" and longevity. Does a rope with a higher modulus keep its small elastic behavior longer (more sets) than a lower modulus rope? In other words, at what rate does each rope type reach the end of life and become dead?

[liquid d]

It will happen gradually enough over time that you won't notice until you compare it to a new one. I hate to say it, but buying more ropes is in your future if you want to be skiing your best when you get to a tournament (which almost always use new ropes).

[ski6jones]

Regarding rope life I think ML recommends a rope is good for about 50 sets. That's a bit more than 3 ropes per year for me. Too bad my budget only allows for 2.

[dave2ball]

A rope will last more the 50 sets. But with that being said the longevity of a rope will depend on the level of skier how the rope is care for. After a multi round tournament the rope is a dead soldier.

[liquid d]

Over the years, the engines/boats have become so strong and so quick to react....that I believe a slightly stretchy rope can help shortline skiers get up on the boat, and be free from it. I've tried every rope made. You'll get used to it , and then have a sweet couple of weeks, and then it's just not the same. The rope dies, turns more into cable. I think we may have done a disservice to our skiing making the boats freight trains...but obviously, there's no going back.

How do you make a rope that maintains that perfect amount of stretch/recoil?

Maybe start with a stiff rope with a small attachment loop that stretches...maybe put in right before 43 off. The ropes are not "wearing out"; they just don't ski the same. 3 sets on the same rope and I'm adjusted to it. After 2 months on a rope, it's nowhere near where it was on day 1.

[Adam Caldwell]

From what I feel, a softer rope is going to make the ZO react less quickly. Its going to give skier more time to dig the ski in and build angle, but without actually getting "pulled" or the ZO feeling you. By the time it knows your there, you are closer to center with more angle, more load, and LESS SPEED. Now when the ZO comes on, your in a bad situation.

Agree too stiff can be bad also. But like everything in this sport, there is a sweet spot.