How To Turn a Slalom Ski

[FlowPointMethod]

 

Here’s an answer to those who asked about yesterday’s post on instagram, regarding how to best turn a water ski. ***Keep In Mind, this concept is a higher level concept because at rope lengths shorter than 35 off, it begins to be a crucial part of consistency. HOWEVER, it is backward compatible: meaning, it will work at 30mph 15 off, but it’s definitely not a requirement.

[ral]

This sounds interesting. So where and how should you do it?

[escmanaze]

Whoa!!!!

 

Isn't this literally the opposite of what we have always been taught?

 

[skihart]

@FlowPointMethod i am just waiting for @Horton to come along and give you a panda. Lol.

I saw your Instagram post and was very curious about this.

[scoke]

 

Great video but you would have reached troll level mastery if you almost didn't start laughing at 2:34 and then at 2:45.

 

 

[Erik4c]

I don’t know about this one Marcus. Perhaps some video of people implementing this to show us as an example?

The rocker of modern waterskis combined with flex allows the ski to turn while being balanced over the ski….

Shifting weight back on the ski to slow the ski down to initiate the turn is going to be very inefficient as far as I see it. It will load the line prematurely resulting in a potentially compromised position on the ski and result in a lot of speed at the next buoy.

Please elaborate I am thoroughly puzzled by this thought process and I’m not sure it’s the correct way to be thinking about navigating the slalom course.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@MarcusBrown it seems you have been getting horton's scotch. And the cheap stuff at that. B)

[Horton]

If anyone but @MarcusBrown had proposed this there would have been many Pandas. Since it is MB I am waiting for more information. I have all kinds of objections but am sure that there is more information to follow. Perhaps some slow motion footage of this idea being implemented.

 

The ball is in your court Mr. Brown.

[swbca]

As I see it . .

 

What MB is describing is not entirely consistent with observed pro techniques

 

With most top skiers, most of the offside turn in executed when they engage the tip and the ski snaps around about 60 degrees in an instant. What he is describing is more often true on their onside turn with some but not all top skiers. A lot if this is driven by the ski. Syndicate skiers are more often symmetrical left and right, keeping more weight forward engaging the tip to complete the turn on both sides. A most recent video of Whitney (its only on her facebook page) shows her almost perfectly symmetrical with aggressive tip engagement on both sides. Radar has changed the shape of the concave, creating a hook near the edges at the front of the ski to aid with effect of tip engagement on short line without widening the ski.

 

What MB is describing is most interesting with Nate Smith coming in fast and late at 43 off on ball 2. He's the only skier I have seen that can sustain the weight back, tail stand ski attitude as the ski continues nearly straight down course to burn off speed before he levels the ski to accelerate. Most top skiers do a momentary tail stand on their last pass, but Nate is the only one that can hold that ski attitude for several feet down course to avoid carrying speed toward the boat . . . mostly on his on side.

 

And none of that seems backward compatible to 15 off because the boat is pulling you down course at the completion of your turn making it harder to turn with your weight shifted back. The skiers speed range is less dynamic at 15 off making it less three dimensional as MB describes it.

[Drago]

Watch Regina

[Than_Bogan]

I didn't know about July Fools Day. Must be a new holiday this year.

[aupatking]

Y’all don’t make me

 

[03RLXi]

"I've a waterski in my hands" that is actually a wine barrel stave. Suspect that's a hint some vino was involved during filming :D

[Skoot1123]

That ski that Marcus has in his hands is the latest and greatest technology that we just haven’t experienced yet. Can’t wait to get my hands on one. The rocker was pretty awesome and the bevels were nice and sharp. Though the tip looks a little like a chisel, it still must make some amazing turns!

[MNshortliner]

Snow skiing has been around for 10,000 years! - That’s why those guys are so good

[B_S]

Somebody's been hanging around Bob Marley too much.

[swaterkd]

can we do a give-go with the "How to hard cut" guy

 

[travtitle]

Is there some reason that Marcus Brown is trolling us?

[ghutch]

If you can turn on the back, bring the tip up and then get it back down and accelerate I'd be smoking Nate on the pro tour. Not sure I'm riding with this one. No doubt Marcus knows his stuff but I believe he's messing with us here.

[skibrain]

IDK about tail turns, but I still value and implement wildcatskier’s ( @MarcusBrown ) comments regarding COM from waterski.net in 2007. ?

[MarcusBrown]

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”

 

Mark Twain

[Andre]

From FPM Youtube commentary...

 

 

I know I know! It can be a bit confusing.

 

Just remember, Yes indeed you want to be on your front foot heading outbound (perturn) into the buoy…but to actually get a direction change to happen, there has to be a weight transfer towards the back foot, to get the tail to move thru. BUT, if you aren’t on your front foot approaching the buoy, you won’t be able to make the weight transfer move….so keep working on what you’re working on.

 

Just start allowing yourself to experimenting with weight transfer into the apex of the turn….don’t be too strict with front foot pressure all the way thru the finish of the turn.

[ghutch]

Is this the "stivot" you refer to? Pushing on the rear to slow the ski and bring it around very quickly but only for a split second?

[hemlock]

I'm wondering if Marcus is referring to a technique shown by a lot of guys super deep shortline.

Like this... (a few turns with tails deep)

[ballsohard]

Is this the second iteration of West Coast slalom skiing?

[A_B]

When you pull out to stop at the end of the lake, if you are coming in a little hot, what do you do to slow down? You don't jump on the front of the ski.

 

In theory this makes some sense, but it sets up a two part turn. Watching top skiers, Regina, Whitney, and some of the men, their tips pop up and then they bring the tip back down and point across the wake. It is much easer to control and move around less ski in the water than 75% of it.

 

Applying it in theory is much different than on the water after a lifetime of staying centered and tip down in smooth arcing turns.

[Slalom.Steve]

Yeah I don't think he's advocating riding the tail all the way around the turn :D It does look to me like the top skiers, as they pass the buoy at short lines, are pushing into the back foot to rapidly change the ski angle and in a sense "stop" their downcourse speed, then immediately getting back into a forward/balanced weight position.

 

Consider this piece from Denali GUT 101: "In order for a skier to complete a pass within the constraints of the slalom course at the 10.25-meter line, the variance in down-course speed is huge! They are traveling significantly faster than the boat in the down-course direction from CL to the buoy, and much slower from the buoy back into to CL."

 

The physics of being tied to the rope dictate that in order to get around a buoy at 41off then be back at center line with a tight rope, the skier must drastically reduce their speed at some point before getting back to CL.

In a race car, the more speed you can carry through the corner the better (generally speaking), so that they can finish the lap with a greater total average speed than other cars. But skiers ultimately can't go through the course any faster than the timing of the boat, so every person who runs the pass has roughly the same average total speed through the course. [edited following @brettmainer's corrections below]

 

I think @A_B's comment is insightful: how do you stop if you're about to hit the dock? You slam the back foot. Whether that's the best way to create deceleration within the many other considerations of running the course, I have no idea lol, but at least in isolation, digging in the tail is an effective way to slow down, and slowing down is necessary to run short lines.

 

Going off the GUT theory, my understanding of the Denali approach, and I could be way wrong here, is to allow the ski to slide, like a rally car on dirt drifting around a corner, so that the ski is starting to point back into the course and scrub speed, even while still traveling outbound (due to the swing of maintaining rope connection/load even as the ski unloads), so then at the finish of the turn, there isn't as much a need for immediate drastic loss of speed after the buoy. @AdamCord?

[brettmainer]

@SlalomSteve, I generally agree with much of your post above, but the last sentence of the third paragraph is incorrect. While it is mostly true that every skier who runs a particular pass has the same average speed (not exactly true because there are slight deviations in possible paths and taller skiers can run a pass with a narrower handle path than shorter skiers), that speed is NOT the same as the average boat speed.

 

Average skier speed = the distance the skier travels divided by the time. The skier travels a longer path than the boat through the course, so the skier's average speed must be faster than the boat speed.

[ForrestGump]

"Waterskis are big, fat, and dumb"

 

Somewhat reminiscent of some of the waterskiers I know.

[Dano]

@MarcusBrown is this move just a slight shift back just before apex? Seems like doing this could give you the ability to kinda step into or lunge forward into a strong accelerating position just as you come back on the handle without having to manage excessive tip pressure. Maybe allowing you to carry more speed, have quick tight turns, and be accelerating sooner off the back of the ball.

[RGilmore]

When I saw the post on Instagram I took a quick look to see if it had been originally posted on

April 1. Then, when that didn't appear to be the case, I simply chalked it up to the ganga.

[FlowPointMethod]

@Dano you are spot on!

 

If someone were proposing that we all come into the buoy on the back of the ski, and Stay on the back of the ski all the way through the turn.....then yeah, I'd have to call BS on that nonsense. That idea wouldn't work in the physical world and is nowhere close to reality, nor is it what I'm claiming.

 

The Physics on what I'm talking about are simple: the highest probability of a repeatable change in directions in shortline slalom, requires a weight transfer at the right moment. But most people are doing it backwards....they are approaching apex with their weight neutral or slightly back, and then transferring weight forward near the finish, to engage the shovel and get the ski to pull through the backside of the buoy. Unfortunately, speed is conserved (a trimmed ski, tip down, is more efficient than a tip up ski) which results in advancing on the boat and creating loose line. IF that loose line thingy doesn't happen, it means the skier was able to or has learned to engage enough of the tip that the ski very quickly rotated....BUT they instantaneously find themselves in a high load situation (ski pointing ~90 degrees across, rope instantly tight, and boat still moving at top speed down course). And that almost always ends with a loss of direction moving outbound into the next buoy. Often, by making the move to the tip of the ski at the finish of the turn, we see the tail of the ski blow out. This happens because more effective edge is engaged....the ski is flatter to the water in the "trim" plane....which means the fin is shallower or closer to the surface of the lake...and we know what that means: more chance of blowing the fin.

 

I am guilty of promoting this old way of thinking, since the late 90's. It was based on this idea of leading your feet with your center of mass, through the turn...specifically leading your front foot. Yes, it works at longer lines...works quite well. But at shoreline (38 and shorter), it is a lower probability move. The higher probability (more repeatable) move, is to trim the ski out as much as possible on the preturn (center of mass over front foot), so that you have the "room" or ability to advance the ski through apex without falling completely off the back....you do this by shifting your weight back and creating an impulse load through the back leg (at the right time,...timing is everything) which momentarily creates an inefficient planning surface. With less ski in the water, the ski rotates quicker, decelerates quicker and will basically be impossible to blow out. At the finish, the ski decelerates relative to your body (because as the tail digs in through the finish, the feet are decelerated too) and as the boat begins to pick you up, you land back over your front foot in Athletic Stance, matching the boat's speed and progressively applying lean and load as you move towards centerline. Ideally, you need things setup right into the turn to give yourself the room to make this happen. But if the right motor patterns are learned and engrained, this move will open up a whole new world for the skier, and they will be able to manage a much higher amount of "bad lines" into the buoy, and still be able to come out of the backside of the turn with a chance to continue skiing.

 

Many great skiers actually do this move, on 1 or both sides....but most skiers do this move as a reaction to skiing into slack...its the natural way we decelerate to quickly get the rope tight so we can begin stealing energy from the boat again. All I'm saying is that there's magic to be had if you actually learn how to utilize this "move" on purpose...preemptively, earlier than we ever thought.

 

And yes, this is backwards compatible. Is it necessary at 35' off and longer? No.

 

In fact, I'm a huge proponent of the Basics over everything else. So if you aren't a shortline skier or you don't have access to a coach that can guide you through this process, I would recommend you tuck it away in the far reaches of your ski mind and keep working on the fundamentals like Athletic Stance, Timing, etc...

 

But for shortline skiers struggling to make a breakthrough at 35 off or shorter, a concerted effort to chip away at this new turning paradigm could absolutely change the game for you.