Administrators Horton Posted September 13, 2023 Administrators Share Posted September 13, 2023 Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller david_ski Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 I would call that a miss. 10.03 A Miss or Riding Over A. Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy or to ride over, straddle, or jump over a turn buoy. But there is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller APB Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 id say a zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted September 13, 2023 Author Administrators Share Posted September 13, 2023 in my mind there is a possibility that the skiers front ankle is going to pass outside the ball. @david_ski makes a good point. I've just curious what everybody thinks Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 The ski is already impacting the buoy much more than would qualify as a graze. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jjackkrash Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 I think I'd need to see the next frame or some slow mo. It sure looks like a ride over in that still but if the ski just grazed the ball and the ski keeps casting/sliding outward and turns around the ball I think it might be possible for a reasonable person to declare it a graze if it didn't displace the ball any more significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rico Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 NO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller dave2ball Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 I would say zero. He displaced the ball and from the picture flat out ran the ball over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted September 13, 2023 Baller_ Share Posted September 13, 2023 I would not know as I don't get that close to buoys! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller liquid d Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 The rule says sinking the bouy. A few more frames could determine if ankles and that center part of the ski are outside the bouy to give credit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller CharlieThreeThree Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 1.15 Judging Standards When a judgment call is too close to call and cannot be decided by allowable reviews, then the benefit of the doubt shall go to the skier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Drago Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 46 minutes ago, jjackkrash said: I think I'd need to see the next frame or some slow mo. It sure looks like a ride over in that still but if the ski just grazed the ball and the ski keeps casting/sliding outward and turns around the ball I think it might be possible for a reasonable person to declare it a graze if it didn't displace the ball any more significantly. This⬆️, and this⬇️ The rule says sinking the bouy. A few more frames could determine if ankles and that center part of the ski are outside the bouy to give credit. either way, it's not "1" it's 1/2 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller AdamCord Posted September 13, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 13, 2023 That ski is sliding sideways, as is evident by the spray. It's entirely possible to hit it and have your front foot still go outside of it... as @jjackkrashsaid you need to see the next frame to determine if it's a buoy or not. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Kelvin Posted September 14, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 14, 2023 3 hours ago, CharlieThreeThree said: 1.15 Judging Standards When a judgment call is too close to call and cannot be decided by allowable reviews, then the benefit of the doubt shall go to the skier. For what its worth, that's an AWSA rule, but not an IWWF rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ swbca Posted September 14, 2023 Baller_ Share Posted September 14, 2023 It looks like the edge of the ski will be outside the ball when the skiers ankle passes over the ball. The ski will be outside the ball when the back half of the ski passes by the ball. The ball was flattened on the top for a moment but it wasn't significantly moved or submerged. Its a heavy Graze but I would call it a Graze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ski6jones Posted September 14, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 14, 2023 Judge that in real time. I double dog dare you. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted September 14, 2023 Baller_ Share Posted September 14, 2023 You can’t tell from that picture. If you’re judging, you’d watch the skier pass the buoy in slow motion and make the correct call. To me, it does not yet appear that the buoy has been displaced and the ski does not follow a rail-like path , so it may never displace it. If the buoy does get displaced, you can see it pop up out of the water behind the skier and above its normal height after the skier passes it. It’s often pretty clear and easy to see if you know what to watch for. Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted September 14, 2023 Author Administrators Share Posted September 14, 2023 Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted September 14, 2023 Author Administrators Share Posted September 14, 2023 Here is the image I think it most interesting 2 Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted September 14, 2023 Author Administrators Share Posted September 14, 2023 My take is the tip of his ski clobbered the ball but his feet went outside the ball. I see the rule that @david_ski above. By that text the score is zero? I am not exactly sure what the answer is. I would be inclined to score Dane 1/2. I think that is what he was scored by the actual judges. ( actual score was 2 1/2 at 41) Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller liquid d Posted September 14, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 14, 2023 1/2 is not determined yet. If they gave him 1/2 , then he did not get back to the gates in time. So , the judges determined he did, in fact , get outside the bouy. If he did get back inside the gate, he would have gotten a full bouy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted September 14, 2023 Author Administrators Share Posted September 14, 2023 @liquid d My mistake. I forgot to post the last image. He still has the handle so I guess there is a chance.... 3 Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted September 14, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 14, 2023 In real-time you probably score it as the ski likely smears around the ball even though the tip hit it pretty hard and, as noted, by rule it would be a zero. The buoy also may have "displaced" his ski significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted September 14, 2023 Supporting Member Share Posted September 14, 2023 (edited) The text of the rule surprised me a bit as it doesn't mention the feet/boots at all. If that is indeed the governing rule, then I'd say no points for that buoy. But I had the same impression as many others: that it could be scored depending on where the foot went next. Did we all just imagine that rule? Edited September 14, 2023 by Than_Bogan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ lpskier Posted September 14, 2023 Baller_ Share Posted September 14, 2023 The ski may not displace the buoy. Your binder and your body may. As the photos point out, there is a lot more to judging than “counting to six.” You need to know the rules, pay close attention and know what to look for if the photo’s of Dane were from the MC Pro, I’m sure that the TWBC cameras were designated as “official” cameras, and the CJ probably reviewed the call. If he or she awarded a half, then that’s the right call. The cameras are so good it hard to make a wrong call on video review. A few years ago I was going to CJ a pro event and I asked a more experienced judge for advice He said “Put your best judge on video review.” Lpskier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted September 14, 2023 Author Administrators Share Posted September 14, 2023 @Than_Bogan IWWF 8.08: A Miss or "Riding Over" a) Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy, or to ride over, straddle, or jump a turn buoy. There is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing....... 8.09: Scoring Buoys A buoy not missed is scored as follows, up to the point of the first miss:...... Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ swbca Posted September 14, 2023 Baller_ Share Posted September 14, 2023 24 minutes ago, Horton said: @Than_Bogan IWWF 8.08: A Miss or "Riding Over" a) Skier Turn Buoys. It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy, or to ride over, straddle, or jump a turn buoy. There is no penalty for grazing a turn buoy with the ski or part of the body. Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a turn buoy less severely shall be considered as grazing....... 8.09: Scoring Buoys A buoy not missed is scored as follows, up to the point of the first miss:...... So what is your verdict ? Does this instance count as "riding over" . Still looks like 1/2 to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Blofeld Posted September 14, 2023 Baller_ Share Posted September 14, 2023 I say half ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jjackkrash Posted September 14, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 14, 2023 15 hours ago, Horton said: Pic two is freaking awesome, especially if you never see pic 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LeonL Posted September 14, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 14, 2023 I say 1/2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted September 14, 2023 Author Administrators Share Posted September 14, 2023 oh boy. I spoke to an Intergalactic Judge ( Pan-Am ) today about this. apparently this technically should be a miss as per the rule quoted by @david_ski. I'm not sure anybody would have caught this live, but to the letter of the rule it's not good. Frankly, I'm not sure if I agree ( or disagree ) with the rule, but it is the rule. 2 Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted September 14, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 14, 2023 Nothing in any of the rules posted say anything about where his feet are. In that 1st pic the ski is clearly riding over that buoy. I don't see any other way to interpret that rule the way its written. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted September 15, 2023 Author Administrators Share Posted September 15, 2023 @ScottScott exact quote from my email.... Quote Geezzzzz 10.12D. For judging purposes, the front foot of the skier shall be used to determine the point at which the skier crosses the quarter, half, and full point buoy lines (or the end gate in case of the final buoy). Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ScottScott Posted September 15, 2023 Baller Share Posted September 15, 2023 I see 2 different aspects. 1st is whether a buoy in question is a miss or not and is determined by whether the skier skies outside the buoy (which can graze the outside of the buoy,) or whether the ski is inside or over it. The 2nd, assuming they are outside the buoy, is how far down course they got in skiing position before a fall, that is determined by the front foot. Note: I don't say this as an experienced judge, just my interpretation of the rules we're reading. P.S. Does is say Geeezzzz in the rule book? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted September 15, 2023 Supporting Member Share Posted September 15, 2023 18 hours ago, swbca said: Riding over shall be defined as hitting a turn buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Soo, upon reading this rule for about the 5th time, I actually now DO seem room to call this 1/2. There are only two things that should cause us to call it a ride-over (and therefore a miss). Otherwise the rule clearly states that we're awarding points. 1) Move it significantly from its position. Nope, I don't see that here. Crushing a buoy is not changing it's position much at all. 2) Temporarily sink it. Also nope and for the same reason: the buoy gives and therefore does not sink. So now I'm claiming that this should be 1/2, and that if we want crushing of modern safety buoys to be called a miss, we need to add that explicitly to the rules. Personally, I'd prefer that this situation score, and for that perhaps a "clarification" should be added to make it obvious that crushing is neither displacing nor sinking and therefore points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Jody_Seal Posted September 15, 2023 Baller_ Share Posted September 15, 2023 after looking at the next frame 1/4 buoy.... still need to be in whats considered a skiing position... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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