Double Boot Binding

[branborambo]

Ballers,

I'm getting older.  I come from a alpine ski background and rely on the front toe release on a binding, and ski double boot.

Two questions:

1) In waterskiing do we not need to worry about injury without toe release?

2) What good double boot binding options are out there?

 

Thanks!

[lpskier]

In my opinion, the best double boot release system is Fogman, which are no longer available. Fogman has a releasable heel and toe.  If I were looking for new bindings, I go with MOB, as the release system is similar to Fogman with both a heel and toe release. And you can put any boot you like on the MOB plate. 

[Horton]

@branborambo

This is a bit of a hot topic and you will likely get a lot of answers. Simply put the water ski industry is not big enough to afford the development of the same level of binding as the snow ski industry. On the other hand we have the Reflex systems ( HO and EDGE are versions of the Reflex system ) that are hard plastic boots with a rear release mechanism barrowed from decades old snow ski tech. https://reflexwaterskiusa.com/product-category/slalom-bindings/

There is a system that provides toe release see http://www.mobsystemrelease.com/ This system also borrows from old snow ski tech. I do not see a lot of these systems but the owner of the company, Mike, is a Baller and is likely to chime in. 

The short answer is yes most competitive skiers do fine without a toe release system. Most of the elite skiers in the sport use some version of the Reflex system or old school rubber bindings.

As for double boots. If you insist on full double boots then the MOB system is likely the best option. On the other hand less and less skiers are skiing in full double boots. The majority of the best skiers use a  rubber rear toe.  Personally I use the Reflex R-style https://reflexwaterskiusa.com/product/rear-slalom-binding-r-style/ There are also a number of hybrid options like Radar HRT https://radarskis.com/products/hrt-boot

Clear as mud?

 

[aupatking]

The MOB system is the best if you are going to stick with full double boots, as the both reliably release. Any of the systems using the Reflex/Silvretta style release (Reflex, Syndicate/Edge, Radar Vapor(using Reflex setup)) all release but are front boot and something else in the rear. Reflex does sell a rear release setup but it’s pretty rare to see anyone using it front and rear. The common setups I see for skiers using the Reflex release who like double boots but want a definite release are the Reflex R-style rear or Radar HRT. I also commonly see a Reflex front with a rubber boot on the rear, typically a Wiley.

Edited September 14, 2023 by aupatking

[lakeo]

Safety is critical. I switched to edge front and a large rear Venom boot coming from double Animals. I don't ski as well, but the ease of entry and safety are for the better.

[DW]

Another option is the Goode Powershell system:  https://goode.com/products/powershell-5™

There is a lot of information to digest as you ponder your system of choice.  As Horton noted, water skiing does not have the resources to perform then develop highly refined systems.  The high performance systems have been developed by individual entrepreneurs with limited budgets, although with a lot of passion to bring water skiers improved products.

[swbca]

Another more simple option is to go with the T-Factor boot(s) which are a rubber boots with laces.  There are a few top pros that use these including the World Record Holder.  I have had T-Factors for three years but have never had a fall that would require a release.   But many others skiers on this forum use the T-Factors and say they have always released with no injury.  Part of the decision is your tendency to fall.  If you have uncontrolled falls more that couple of times per season,  boots that have a mechanical release may be a better option.

[Blofeld]

@swbca T-Factors are not safety focused bindings. They do not release unless the laces are very loose. 

[swbca]

22 minutes ago, Blofeld said:

@swbca T-Factors are not safety focused bindings. They do not release unless the laces are very loose. 

I think my comments were balanced on the safety issue.  

[Horton]

@Blofeld is not wrong

[BraceMaker]

Double releasing hardshells your options if you want to be able to buy a new system today from someone and have it show up at your door.

FM Quattro's

FM EVO's

MOB System

Dual Reflex

Goode Powershell

Of those only the MOB has a toe release and of those only the Reflex and the FM Evo's require no fooling around with inserts or any sort of velcro or tape.

 

[MDB1056]

While getting a bit off topic here................................I'm sure we can all agree that neither @Blofeld nor @Horton are the 100% definitive sources of information on this. The fact that some of the top skiers use tfactors clearly provides support to their quality. Statements alleging lack of safety should be tempered as clearly opinions at best and not as the result of data via testing or such.  As a double boot tfactor user for years I can attest that they have released quickly and cleanly on those occasions that called for it, and I do not wear them "very loose".  They either both stay on or both come off, and I've never had a situation where I questioned the result.      

[Horton]

@MDB1056 as a skier with a 20 year old front ankle injury I have given bindings a lot of thought. I am not saying the T-Factors are unsafe. I am saying that if safety was a primary concern I would not recommend T-Factors or any bindings that use a non-stretch lace. Maybe they work for you. I know elite skiers that endorse t-factors from a performance perspective. 

[BraceMaker]

It might just be that waterskiing is generally speaking so safe compared to downhill skiing that trying to draw conclusions on safety is tough.  I'm certain if you took a single day at a ski resort like vail and cranked everyone's releases on their skis down solid you'd be seeing a line of ambulances from the mountain to the ER but there are plenty of people who have successfully used non-releasing bindings for years, and then there are those people who use non-releasing bindings and have injuries.

Joel Howley for example non-releasing fractured foot, this weekend you saw Nick Adams in from AUS he's on two fixed boot FMs, those are bolted to the plate with no release at all and he's been on that set up most of his career I believe, haven't heard of him having an injury doing it.

  Matteo Luzzeri releasing front with an FM EVO interesting system because the cuffs come off the boot no rotational release built in but lets you run a pretty supportive hardshell system that has a release but popped out of the front this summer and had to be cut out of the rubber rear - would have thought that is pretty safe lots of skiers on something like that who seem to do OK with it.

Then I think potentially the scariest type of set up would be the double reflex because to me very easily one of them could release and not the other, I've always thought if the double reflex had some sort of cable that would link the releases or maybe that the front release latched the rear boot that it'd be better but then we saw that they can release with Pigozzi just last weekend.

Summary I think is that it is unclear when an injury is going to happen and there may be a false sense of safety coming from the systems we use.  I've had a fractured femur not coming out of a simple rubber binding and I've had a fractured rib unintentionally releasing a hardshell.

MOB I think is the closest to a "safety" binding.  If a company were to come out with a Vapor shell with molded in toe and heel ledges for the MOB style release units and the ski companies were to install some extra inserts in the forebody and tail of the ski I think that is basically the closest to a "universal" DIN type system that we have with the least margin for accidental releases.

 

 

 

[Slalom.Steve]

@Horton, but @Blofeld is wrong. "Do not release" is a definitive statement. Yet... I've used T-Factors for several years and never had an issue releasing, and I cinch them pretty much as tight as I can, to where my foot hurts by pass 3 or 4 if I don't loosen them and re-tighten in-between passes (which I've taken to doing every couple passes, and whenever I fall until I'm reset for the next pass). While science is not a world of anecdotes, even just one anecdote proves wrong the blanket statement that "T-Factors do not release unless very loose." I also know a number of folks on T-Factors and have yet to hear any "oh s**t" stories of not releasing.

On the other hand, do a search through this forum and you'll find drastically more stories (and videos) of dangerous, painful falls due to mechanical release boots than T-Factors. It's simply in the data. Yes, yes, I know the argument, "If you know what you're doing and check it regularly and don't make any mistakes, you're fine!" Except either that's not true, or it's true theoretically (most likely), but in practical reality, there's evidently a whole lotta people who don't know what they're doing.

[Horton]

@Slalom.Steve  

I am sure there is some sort of release with a T-Factor but as with the old HO Approach I do not trust this sort of binding. That is from the sum of my personal experience. If I can not quickly and easily get my foot out or boot released without using loosening or releasing something I am not skiing in it. Can you take your ski off at the end of your ride without loosening your laces?

As for the "data" between all hard-shell binding and rubber  I would guess that if you took all Level 8 skiers up through the best in the world you would find a least 75% use some sort of hardshell system. In the pro ranks I would think it is easily greater than 90%. So if you read a few threads about a release or pre-release failure you have to take into account the different number of skiers in each style of binding. There are always some injuries and most higher end skiers are in shells so most reports reflect badly on shells. 

Yes a Reflex style binding (any hardshell system) that is not set up right or is not maintained is dangerous. I could not agree more.  

In the end it is each skiers choice. I promote Reflex style bindings because I I think it is the best choice for anyone who is willing to invest the time to understand how it works. If you love your T-Factors then rock on. I get it. Use the bindings you trust.

[Slalom.Steve]

@Horton I can pop my ski off at the end of a set without loosening, though it takes some effort. I will say I have a somewhat narrow heel so maybe that helps? I also use a Large T-Factor, with a 10.5 US shoe size, which is right in D3's recommendation, but I also know a couple guys with 10-ish shoes that size down to a Medium, so theirs may be less easy to release, though they may also not tighten as hard as I do, I'm not sure.

At least we can all agree that Joel Howley is crazy.

[Horton]

Yes, Joel is insane but I like him a lot.

[MDB1056]

Let’s just all please agree that absent hard quants  to back them up, individual statements are opinions at best . Allegations of “unsafe” leveled against a product of one of the industries top manufacturers should be very carefully considered before released, absent heavy qualifying first as opinion only. 

[branborambo]

22 hours ago, Horton said:

@branborambo

This is a bit of a hot topic and you will likely get a lot of answers. Simply put the water ski industry is not big enough to afford the development of the same level of binding as the snow ski industry. On the other hand we have the Reflex systems ( HO and EDGE are versions of the Reflex system ) that are hard plastic boots with a rear release mechanism barrowed from decades old snow ski tech. https://reflexwaterskiusa.com/product-category/slalom-bindings/

There is a system that provides toe release see http://www.mobsystemrelease.com/ This system also borrows from old snow ski tech. I do not see a lot of these systems but the owner of the company, Mike, is a Baller and is likely to chime in. 

The short answer is yes most competitive skiers do fine without a toe release system. Most of the elite skiers in the sport use some version of the Reflex system or old school rubber bindings.

As for double boots. If you insist on full double boots then the MOB system is likely the best option. On the other hand less and less skiers are skiing in full double boots. The majority of the best skiers use a  rubber rear toe.  Personally I use the Reflex R-style https://reflexwaterskiusa.com/product/rear-slalom-binding-r-style/ There are also a number of hybrid options like Radar HRT https://radarskis.com/products/hrt-boot

Clear as mud?

 

Thank you, this helps a ton.  Thank you for the links!  HRT is something I've considered and for the price a good option for maybe getting me to a rear toe. 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Can you take your ski off at the end of your ride without loosening your laces?

Yes.  Indeed that is typically what I do with my T-factors, and it's not even that difficult.

I, too, have spent a LOT of time thinking about bindings.  I've even designed some and actually patented an attachment method (that I am no longer pursuing for reasons that may become obvious as you read on).

The two most important factors to consider in choosing the safest double-boot setup FOR YOU are:

1) What do you do as a skier?  What type of falls do you take?  How often do you take big crashes?

2) What level of care and maintenance are you realistically going to do?

Each system has potential liabilities, and you need to try to select the liabilities that are the least likely to be a problem for you.

Releasable boots inherently have the possibility of releasing when they shouldn't.  This can be made less likely with vigilant inspection, testing, and maintenance.  But these kind of falls can be very dangerous.

Fixed rubber boots are unable to release in certain specific scenarios, especially sudden-stop OTFs and certain extreme twists.

Personally, I average less that one "big crash" per year, but I am terrible at maintenance.  Given this combination, I conclude that releasable boots actually increase my chance of injury significantly.

T-factors will never release when they shouldn't, and generally will release when they should.

[Wish]

Best binding release is one not used very often or not at all by utilizing what’s between your ears. As @Than_Bogansays, he only takes a bad crash once a year on average. Same for me. That’s him skiing smart and knowing his limits. Age is a limit, skill is a limit ,how you physically and mentally feel that set is a limit and so on. Non of us on here are Freddy Winter accept FW. But even he knows his limits …ESPECIALLY in practice. My limit…if 35 does not feel really good, not shortening to 38. Why would I. I have nothing to prove accept to myself. So my biggest suggesting for @branborambo binding questions is to know your limits every set and ski accordingly. Won’t say what brands are safe or not. Will say in a crash BOTH feet better stay attached to the ski or BOTH feet better come out at the or close to the exact same time. Mixing diff styles of double boots seems to go against that. As does a toe kick with a front boot that’s set to tight be it a  mechanical  release, lace or rubber. 

[aupatking]

I’m not going to call the Goode powershells “unsafe”, but they broke my ankle and my ski partner’s Tib/Fib. In my case, it was a minor fall that would have been a nothing Event had I not been in those boots. I strongly suggest against them. I have another ski partner that I’m working on moving off of Powershells, as he keeps getting concussions. I don’t have scientific data, but when I try to analyze what’s going on with his falls, all I keep coming back to is: his boot system is a single point pivot with his head being the end of the lever.

i will ALWAYS suggest against that system. Just me though

[OldboyII]

On 9/14/2023 at 9:10 PM, Blofeld said:

@swbca T-Factors are not safety focused bindings. They do not release unless the laces are very loose. 

As a T-Factor user I may say that distance between safe release and unsafe release is very narrow. User must manualy set "safe mode" every time when getting in to the boot keeping in mind many factors, even temperature of the water (from my practice in a cold water T-Factor's rubber is noticeable losing elasticity). Also a period of not using does matter. Etc..

[JimP]

On 9/14/2023 at 3:47 PM, MDB1056 said:

While getting a bit off topic here................................I'm sure we can all agree that neither @Blofeld nor @Horton are the 100% definitive sources of information on this. The fact that some of the top skiers use tfactors clearly provides support to their quality. Statements alleging lack of safety should be tempered as clearly opinions at best and not as the result of data via testing or such.  As a double boot tfactor user for years I can attest that they have released quickly and cleanly on those occasions that called for it, and I do not wear them "very loose".  They either both stay on or both come off, and I've never had a situation where I questioned the result.      

For clarity of opinion I did break my tibia in 30 places wearing a rubber boot similar to the T factor so although you may come out of the boot it does not release.  That’s great that you are speaking from your experience but there are a lot of us that are using a release system due to fixed boots not releasing causing broken ankles and legs.  

[MDB1056]

@JimP - point was to state that data is needed to support any sort of statement on results, and that opinions are simply that. Opinions.  As noted earlier, that some of the worlds best are using tfactors and performing at exceptionally high levels lends credence to the expectation of some level of inherent quality. 

Is there some inference here that if you had been in a different boot you wouldn't have crashed or it wouldn't have been as bad? That will never be known. Might have been worse. People who drive the best cars in the world still have crashes and injuries, neither of which are the fault of the car. 

Hope you recovered well and are back on the water .    

[Slalom.Steve]

@JimP By "release" I mean that your foot separates from the ski, whether that's via the binding releasing on a mechanical system or your foot releasing from a boot on a fixed/rubber system. It seems there may be a mixture of use in this term, but in the way I use it, the T-Factor is not a "non-releasable binding," though it will certainly be harder to trigger a release than a mechanical system.

Just for one data point, here is a video of my foot releasing from my T-Factor, and I cinch down both sets of laces basically as tight as I can.
(to repost from earlier my specific setup: I use a Large T-Factor with a 10.5 US shoe size, which is right in D3's recommendation, but I also know a couple guys with 10-ish shoes that size down to a Medium, so their's may be harder to release, though they may also not tighten as hard as I do, I'm not sure).

[vtmecheng]

35 minutes ago, Slalom.Steve said:

@JimP By "release" I mean that your foot separates from the ski, whether that's via the binding releasing on a mechanical system or your foot releasing from a boot on a fixed/rubber system. It seems there may be a mixture of use in this term, but in the way I use it, the T-Factor is not a "non-releasable binding," though it will certainly be harder to trigger a release than a mechanical system.

Just for one data point, here is a video of my foot releasing from my T-Factor. Just to repost from earlier my specific setup: I use a Large T-Factor with a 10.5 US shoe size, which is right in D3's recommendation, but I also know a couple guys with 10-ish shoes that size down to a Medium, so their's may be less easy to release (though they may also not tighten as hard as I do, I'm not sure).

Ouch!!! My head and neck hurts just thinking about that crash.

[Slalom.Steve]

Haha yeah the fact that I slid on my back for awhile meant there wasn't a "hard stop" at any point, so it ended up being not nearly as bad as it could've been. It's rare for me to go OTF like that too, but it was also the 9th pass of my 2nd set at a line length I've run fewer than 10 times.

[Horton]

@Slalom.Steve I just watched that a few times in slo-mo. Very entertaining. Ok you win. T-Factors do release. 

[Slalom.Steve]

@Horton I should also qualify that my ankle was a little stiff afterwards, so I will admit there was a bit of "injury" due to the T-Factor. 😁