Lower price new directs drives can be done

[dave2ball]

The DXii is a hull from the 90’s. You can add ZO and latest motor configurations which will improve performance but the drive ability and ski ability may not be accepted by high end tournament skiers.    For the recreational skiers and beginner to intermediate slalom skiers may feel this is a very viable solution for the cost of the higher end boats.  

[Sethro]

Not that it really matters, but I highly doubt this boat was brought back by Sanger to try to get a slalom skier to buy a new boat.  It was for the footin' crowd, and I wouldn't doubt if they had pre-orders/deposits on a set number of boats before they decided to do it.  Nothing to back that up, just a guess.

[Wish]

Wish the 1997 196 mold was laying around for someone to do the same with. 👍

[03RLXi]

Intention of my original post was a highlight it is possible to build a new boat with new everything for much lower price than offered by big 3. Extension of that thought is what has driven up the prices so much? Yes resin, engine, etc have gone up but if Sanger can sell a package at that price it seems like it could only be plusher seats, some touch screens, vast amounts of seadek, etc. Is that justifiably worth an extra $30k? 

Intention was not to start arguments if the Sanger is any good, if you would buy it, where it fits in market, etc.

 

[LoopSki]

I’m pretty sure the pricing is directly from Sanger and pick up at the factory. So no dealer stomping on it. If MC let you do that probably get close to that price 

[UWSkier]

1 hour ago, Wish said:

Wish the 1997 196 mold was laying around for someone to do the same with. 👍

I'd LOVE to see someone find the '99-04 Sunsetter LXi molds and build those again.  I'd bet they'd sell a surprising number of those if they did what Sanger is doing.  '04 SSLXi with ZO would be an amazing family boat.  Should be able to do it around the same price point.

[dave2ball]

196 mold cut up years ago.  

[Jody_Seal]

33 minutes ago, dave2ball said:

196 mold cut up years ago.  

lol! plenty of 196 plugs running around. a plug is what molds are made from.

[03RLXi]

Molds aren't cheap to make but if making a run of say 30 hulls from it the mold creation cost per hull wouldn't be significant part of the total 

[6balls]

Ski company runs 196 molds, Sunsetter Lxi molds, Sanger barefoot molds, and then has some wake pigs.  Complete line up.  I know it's not possible but that would be a bad ass slalom boat, a bad ass family do it all boat that still produces a great slalom wake, a bad ass barefoot boat, then some wake surf pigs.  

[chrislandy]

On 9/26/2023 at 3:44 PM, Broussard said:

Guess what - the stripped down boat didn't sell... Now the "Malibu Open Edition" is just the standard TXi.

MasterCraft also produced the SportStar - a '95-'97 MasterCraft hull with only the essentials. Didn't sell...

I think the issue is that there is no option, even if nobody buys one. Look at BMW and Merc, each of their models has a low priced stripped, no features base at the same price you could by a top all optioned Ford of similar size. They probably only sell a few of the base models each year, but the option is there if someone really wants one. 

Same should be for MC/Nautique/Malibu, the base model should ideally be stripped of features i.e. no bow seats, no interior lighting, minimal seadeck, basic gel patterns/colours, basic screen with ZO, lower spec motor etc similar to when they first released the 2014 Prostar. Each boat is built to order so it's not like they'll have 50 unsold base spec models hanging around, all it takes up is a double page spread in the brochure.

[buechsr]

4 hours ago, chrislandy said:

I think the issue is that there is no option, even if nobody buys one. Look at BMW and Merc, each of their models has a low priced stripped, no features base at the same price you could by a top all optioned Ford of similar size. They probably only sell a few of the base models each year, but the option is there if someone really wants one. 

Same should be for MC/Nautique/Malibu, the base model should ideally be stripped of features i.e. no bow seats, no interior lighting, minimal seadeck, basic gel patterns/colours, basic screen with ZO, lower spec motor etc similar to when they first released the 2014 Prostar. Each boat is built to order so it's not like they'll have 50 unsold base spec models hanging around, all it takes up is a double page spread in the brochure.

There's nothing stopping anyone from ordering a closed bow txi exactly like that.  But people don't.  It doesn't save nearly as much as you'd think.  And very few dealers are willing to floor model a ski boat, particularly one w no options to save a relatively small %. 

I think "we" greatly overthink our importance to cater to.  Malibu is a billion dollar company.  Packaging a stripped down ski boat for 50 sales a year (at best) and 30,000 GP per unit, is a lot of effort to make $1.5M.  Good for Sanger, but its laughable to think our microcosm would ever justify a cheap boat from the big 3.

[chrislandy]

But that's the point, if there is someone wants to order one, and they can also say "look, we do a stripped out slalom tug that's really good value" 

How many people buy a base model car with no extras? Not many, and the dealers certainly don't have them on the showroom floor. If someone wants that particular car/boat whatever at a much lower price then they special order it.

It would put to bed all the naysayers and cryers about boat prices, they could even price it at or below zero profit within reason and they still probably wouldn't sell any or many. The problem is a boat slot is a boat slot, and our as you say little niche ski boat is a lot less profitable than a larger wake/surf boat so the bean counters will nix it in a heartbeat (even if it's extremely low risk)

[buechsr]

Just now, chrislandy said:

But that's the point, if there is someone wants to order one, and they can also say "look, we do a stripped out slalom tug that's really good value" 

How many people buy a base model car with no extras? Not many, and the dealers certainly don't have them on the showroom floor. If someone wants that particular car/boat whatever at a much lower price then they special order it.

It would put to bed all the naysayers and cryers about boat prices, they could even price it at or below zero profit within reason and they still probably wouldn't sell any or many. The problem is a boat slot is a boat slot, and our as you say little niche ski boat is a lot less profitable than a larger wake/surf boat so the bean counters will nix it in a heartbeat (even if it's extremely low risk)

I can't tell whether we are saying the same thing or not.  It's NOT a good value to save whatever, $20,000-$30,000 to have a bathtub with an engine.  See the numerous people in this thread who have said they'd rather have a 5 year old boat than a new econobox.  Again, anyone, right now, can order a stripped down tractor.  No one does.  I'm in the market for a late model SN right now.  I have come across exactly zero that are not optioned to the max.  And I am personally fine with that.  My criteria is not everyone's, but I'd much rather pay for a 4 year old SN loaded up than a stripped down tractor, even if it saved, whatever, 20%.

I totally disagree that a bathtub option is "extremely low risk".  It's a low margin, low volume entry that the market has demonstrated repeatedly, people don't want!  R&D is not cheap.  New molds are not cheap.  Tooling for a low volume model with extremely limited profit potential is dumb.  Even before Centurion did the CP, they built years of Tru Tracs, etc.  Same for Gecko, Supra, Tige, Sanger, Infinity, Svfara, Toyota, Hydrodyne, Calabria, MB sports, etc.  All sold at a significant discount to the big 3 (particularly MC and CC).  All those brands went away except for those who went all in on the wakesurf market.  Then Centurion designed and released the CP to much fanfare and appreciation, priced well below the big 3, and in a few years, poof. 

There is not a market demand for stripped down cheap (er) ski tractors.  There's just not.  Clearly demonstrable by the lack of big 3 ski boats in the wild that are remotely lightly optioned.  

Axis wakeboats are a good example IMO.  They started out basically a decade ago, with cheaper engines, archaic ballast, limited options, priced under $40,000.  In 10 years the market DEMANDED that it now provide touchscreens, sport dash, surf gate, power wedge 3 (same as Malibu) and now priced for most models, well in excess of $120,000.  The people buying watersports boats simply don't want stripped down stuff to save money.  That doesn't mean that there's not a place for the NXT line, GS line, or Axis, but people do not want a $75,000 NXT wherein they have to drop pumps over the sides and use a carbed  5.7.

[DW]

[BraceMaker]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:15 PM, Wish said:

Wish the 1997 196 mold was laying around for someone to do the same with. 👍

Molds for these hulls don't just last for ever there they require upkeep, service, repair, and replacement.  So even if someone had the mold you're going to need to make new molds every so often so even if the first mold was free it won't be for long.

@buechsr the funny thing is a TON of people buy stripped down boats they just don't buy them from Mastercraft, or Nautique, or even sanger.

The seadoo switch pontoon comes in with the 2.3L turbo indmar ecoboost at 45K.

Start ignoring "pretending" that the boat is a stripped down ski boat and make it a budget conscious multisport boat with that engine and you sell them though a brand like seadoo and you sell 10,000 of them a year and that's how you make a stripped down ski boat and reach the intended audience and then if that boat happens to be good enough for a few people here?  Maybe a handful don't buy the used ski boat.

[buechsr]

1 hour ago, BraceMaker said:

Molds for these hulls don't just last for ever there they require upkeep, service, repair, and replacement.  So even if someone had the mold you're going to need to make new molds every so often so even if the first mold was free it won't be for long.

@buechsr the funny thing is a TON of people buy stripped down boats they just don't buy them from Mastercraft, or Nautique, or even sanger.

The seadoo switch pontoon comes in with the 2.3L turbo indmar ecoboost at 45K.

Start ignoring "pretending" that the boat is a stripped down ski boat and make it a budget conscious multisport boat with that engine and you sell them though a brand like seadoo and you sell 10,000 of them a year and that's how you make a stripped down ski boat and reach the intended audience and then if that boat happens to be good enough for a few people here?  Maybe a handful don't buy the used ski boat.

10,000 a year?  Where are you getting your information that seadoo sold (or could) a bunch of switches?  My large public lake has seen 1 and that person sold it with 2 months.  Local Sea doo dealer can't move them.  In the same time that lake saw 2 new prostars and a new txi (in addition to scores of new V drives).  My local "Ski boat" dealer also sells multiple off shore/center console lines.  None of those ordered for inventory are ever stripped.  They're actually loaded up with tens of thousands of upgrades, even though most upgrades can be done at the dealer level (helm master, multiple chartplotters, radar, etc.).  Who is running the show in the pontoon market?  Bass Tracker or Bennington?  Four Winns or Cobalt?  People buy premium boats.   Not entry level cost-cutting exemplars.  It is what it is.  Has anyone actually seen a Heyday in the wild?  I sure haven't.  And yet they're 1/4 to 1/2 the price of a typical big 3 V drive.  People just don't buy stripped down boats.  They just... don't.  Again, see Axis as a case study on this exact phenomenon.

 

[MDB1056]

Pages and pages of comments here on a topic which is not about to change. Opine all you want but guess what next year will bring.........  

[buechsr]

On 9/29/2023 at 2:45 PM, MDB1056 said:

Pages and pages of comments here on a topic which is not about to change. Opine all you want but guess what next year will bring.........  

Higher prices?

[03RLXi]

6 hours ago, buechsr said:

Higher prices?

and more luxuries or 'features' that aren't needed to improve the tow but affluent skiers will want and buy them anyway

[dave2ball]

In order for nautique MC and Malibu to offer stripped down models means the companies have to have more money tied up in inventory. Nautique chose to just offer one dash screen for both the new nautique and the current 200 because it is cost effective. MC follows the same theory from what I have seen.  The big three MFG’s  aren’t going g to stock a basic dash for 10 boats maybe.  People don’t seem to have an issue buying a loaded or partially loaded boat.   However many ski boats are built by each MFG they seem to sell them all.   
 

[03RLXi]

22 minutes ago, dave2ball said:

In order for nautique MC and Malibu to offer stripped down models means the companies have to have more money tied up in inventory. Nautique chose to just offer one dash screen for both the new nautique and the current 200 because it is cost effective. MC follows the same theory from what I have seen.  The big three MFG’s  aren’t going g to stock a basic dash for 10 boats maybe.  People don’t seem to have an issue buying a loaded or partially loaded boat.   However many ski boats are built by each MFG they seem to sell them all.   
 

Agree. They make them and they sell. Not much incentive to do simple 'adequate for purpose' towboats when it'd just increase the overall company costs and the profit per boat would be lower. 

Got to wonder how good the wakes and tracking would be of a stripped down lighter weight latest design tow boat? The Pista01 is <75% the weight of the others. Perhaps the others have grown and have extra weight to improve the tracking? If that's the case it might as well be luxuries than just dead weight somewhere. Perhaps the extra size is the result of the extra luxuries and not from seeking wake or tracking improvements? Which comes first, size or weight? Does weight improve tracking? Does size improve wake? Who knows!!!! Complex topic  

[swc5150]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:48 PM, buechsr said:

10,000 a year?  Where are you getting your information that seadoo sold (or could) a bunch of switches?  My large public lake has seen 1 and that person sold it with 2 months.  Local Sea doo dealer can't move them.  In the same time that lake saw 2 new prostars and a new txi (in addition to scores of new V drives).  My local "Ski boat" dealer also sells multiple off shore/center console lines.  None of those ordered for inventory are ever stripped.  They're actually loaded up with tens of thousands of upgrades, even though most upgrades can be done at the dealer level (helm master, multiple chartplotters, radar, etc.).  Who is running the show in the pontoon market?  Bass Tracker or Bennington?  Four Winns or Cobalt?  People buy premium boats.   Not entry level cost-cutting exemplars.  It is what it is.  Has anyone actually seen a Heyday in the wild?  I sure haven't.  And yet they're 1/4 to 1/2 the price of a typical big 3 V drive.  People just don't buy stripped down boats.  They just... don't.  Again, see Axis as a case study on this exact phenomenon.

 

We have a local Heyday dealer and I see them in the wild all the time.  Very few X/XT's in the wild from the MC dealer though...but a crap ton of NXT's.  Maybe it's more localized to small town lakes and rivers? 

I bought a Bennington last year and went with the mid-range XS line.  They have multiple ranges with varying creature comforts for those that don't want to get too crazy expensive.  But there's also a large delta in price, which hasn't been the case in the ski boat market.