Lower price new directs drives can be done

[03RLXi]

Yes, it's not a pure slalom or 3 event boat but these brand new limited run Sangers show that it should be possible to produce significantly lower cost direct drives than the big 3 are doing  

https://www.facebook.com/100063602334599/posts/pfbid023CtgKhroXy5Lk8JCkcSjzTGgGksL6MSipKZaEFTfSzDkMquNCSEs3VpKzMY4PHo8l/?mibextid=y6Gskv

 

 

[6balls]

That's cool!

@bananaron

[Mastercrafter]

Sad thing is that a new base Prostar MSRP was about $75K in 2021. Not sure if that had a trailer or not, but either way.. the last few years have not been good to us. 

[swc5150]

If that was 196, a decent percent of the guys and gals here would likely be placing orders for that money.  Kudos Sanger!  Proof you can dust off and refurb old molds!

[RAWSki]

Nice it comes with a tower but ZeroOff is an $1800 option  but its very cool I bet @bananaron will be first one on the list!?!  

[ALPJr]

If memory serves me well the DXII was an approved hull for a number of years as recently as the mid 2000’s.

[Wish]

Drove and Skied behind one for many yrs. Great boat but…the wakes at that time were very small but stiff. Not a deal breaker by any means. Easy enough to cross but you knew they were there. Love this by Sanger. 

[Bufootin]

The DXII is an Incredible barefoot boat too!

[Horton]

must I remind you guys about the Carbon Pro? you can strip out enough costs to make the boat substantially less expensive, but if nobody buys it, it's an albatross.

[jjackkrash]

I assume there is a huge order line forming from members here who lament for the cheap, strippy direct drive with few unessential features that almost no one actually buys.  

[Dano]

@Horton.  I would be willing to bet if MC, or Nautique put a stripped down bare bones boat out at a significantly reduced price they will sell a lot more boats.  It seems the consumer in this industry is brand loyal to the extremes.  So any brand outside of those 2 really is not given much of a chance for success.  the Sanger  likely is never used in a tournament or as a club boat simply because it’s not made by the noted manufacturers. Doesn’t matter how good it performs.

[swc5150]

The Carbon Pro and other "entry" boats failed in large part because you could get a used late-model "big 3" flag ship for similar money.  Also, I think Nautique is currently proving you can sell a lower priced boat over the flagship with the 200.  

[Broussard]

@Dano When Malibu launched the new Response TXi for 2017 there was a stripped down version with analog gauges, ZO puck, and composite hatch doors and the "Malibu Open Edition" with touchscreen, combing pads, and billet glovebox lid and rear storage lids.

Guess what - the stripped down boat didn't sell... Now the "Malibu Open Edition" is just the standard TXi.

MasterCraft also produced the SportStar - a '95-'97 MasterCraft hull with only the essentials. Didn't sell...

Edited September 26, 2023 by Broussard

[dave2ball]

There is a small minority of skiers that just want a bare bones boat. But the majority of buyers want all the bells and whistles and are willing to pay for it.  And being on a promo team proved it year after year.  The 200 is mentioned but the 200 is not the same boat prior to 2019. It’s heavier and only available in an OB.  

For the majority of lake skiers or recreational skiers that is just fine. When is the last time you saw a newer 200 in a tournament?    
 Carbon pro was a great boat to ski behind. Driving it could be challenging if it was not set up correctly.    Low cost tug.  Did not get traction. why?  If all the ballers here wanted a low cost tug there was your chance.   Yet many bought one of the big 3.  All this before nautique bought centurion.  
 

[Dano]

@Broussard Malibu is not MC or Nautique.   Nothing against Malibu but they do not have the same following.  The 90’s were a time when boats were reasonably priced to start with and the top of the line boats were already providing minimal luxuries, I wouldn’t think a stripped down version of those would sell.  I get the point you are making but to date I don’t think there has been any effort by the big 2 to create such an offering.  It goes against their business profiles of being the builders of the best boats in the industry.  
 

The CP was a really good offering but it was built by the wrong brand to gain serious traction.  
 

@dave2ball if MC or Nautique offered the exact same hulls without the fluff and extras, at significantly reduced cost. You think those wouldn’t sell?  I guess that’s what the used market is for. But still it’s never been tried.   

[DW]

The Sanger is targeted at a different market, barefooters.  Footers are currently limping along with older DXII's and other options so offering something new is a gold mine for a market that is a fraction of the ski market (which is also really small) and has very few desirable options.  Kudo's to them for stepping up, there must be enough pull from potential customers to make it a viable business step.  Certainly a very different business calculation for Sanger v 'big 3' ski boat mfg's.

[swc5150]

CP didn't get traction because it was a Centurion and the price delta wasn't substantial enough.  Same with a Txi base vs Open version...it's not that much extra to get the goodies when you're already spending a lot of money.  Anecdotally, our local MC dealer sold way more Sportstars than Prostars, just like they're selling way more NXT's today.           

[dave2ball]

@Dano it would sell but not to the numbers that it would make it worth it for MC and nautique.  The person who buys this would have a hard a bare bones boat to the general recreational skier who is out with the family all day on a public lake.   If a bare bones boat was in popular demand wouldn’t they build it?

[bananaron]

Probably a great boat for footin.We need someone to ski it and foot behind it.I don't think the barefoot mkt is that big. I am the only barefooter on my lake.And yes the CARBON PRO I THINK IS A GREAT BOAT YOU CAN BUY FOR LESS MONEY.The J-CRAFT would be a fabulous all around boat for a guy like me.Great wake for slalom and barefoot and ZERO MAINTENANCE!! And yes people would rather buy a used big 3 boat then the GEKKO GTR OR CARBON PRO........I think some of it was poor marketing.I bought my Gekko in 2001 and most people knew very little about the boat however once they skied it they were impressed.Same with the carbon pro that I owned......

[Horton]

Resale is a factor that you guys are missing. The CP was a GREAT boat but part of the problem was the resale was terrible. At the time you could aways buy a older used 196 for about the same as newer but also used CP.  No one gets the CP when they can get a 196 for the same money. 

Today a 2014-2020 ProStar would be a solid hedge against a new or very low hour budget boat.  Same with a older but current hull Bo or 200.

[Hallpass]

People say they want a bare bones, low cost boat.  The actual sales don't support it.  The budget minded would rather buy a used boat with all the bells and whistles, than a new, stripped down model.

Not an exact comparison, but, the SV211 was far and away the best seller for Correct Craft (Nautique).  They stripped it down and presented as a price point boat, and the sales went to nearly nothing.

 

 

 

[swc5150]

Don't tell Nautique or they'll stop making 200's😉

[bananaron]

@Horton This summer I could pick up a 15 to 17 carbon pro with zo for way less then any MC 2014 OR NEWER BOAT......

[bananaron]

I think the big 3 newer boats are still way over priced........

[Dano]

@dave2ball From a business point perhaps creating a cheaper boat to sell more numbers is just working harder to earn the same profits.  I get it, It's probably not in their best interests.  I'm suggesting that without a legitimate alternative in the market place there is no anchor to keep the competition honest.  Google says prices in 2016, base price of a CP was $49,000.  A prostar was roughly $58,800 a 2023 prostar base price is $95,000.00.  That's a 63% price increase in 7 years for what is essentially the same hull.  As a consumer I feel like that's price gouging.  It's no coincidence that prices increased significantly with the death of the CP.  Covid and supply chains played a roll i'm sure but not the tune of 63%.  A healthy market has more than 2 or 3 players especially when all 3 are playing the same game.   It doesn't create healthy competition, it creates inflated used boat prices as well. For that reason I would welcome any manufacturer that can create a truly affordable option and be the outlier. 

The CP being 10k cheaper than the  pro star was not a serious shot at selling a bare bones stripped down affordable boat for the reasons @swc5150 has already noted. 

 

[dave2ball]

@Dano and MC sells out of the pro star at 95K. Motors have increased in price oil which is the gelcoat is made from and so on. Yet the public still is buying.  
if you feel it is price gouging don’t buy one. There are 5 others behind you that will pay the price.   

[Dano]

@dave2ball  Selling out of limited production is not the same as high demand.  By the way nobody is suggesting MC or Nautique should change their price or business model.  it works for them. The fact that this topic exists and pops up on an annual basis suggests there is a desire for something different that has not been marketed before in a meaningful way (as noted in previous posts).  The Sanger price point is certainly proving it can be built.  I think that is good for the market as a whole. I fully encourage you to shell out your cash for the current offerings, the market needs people like you too. 

[APB]

You can go to almost any dealer and order an optioned down boat. Options are the problem.

For a lot of people a ski boat is a status symbol and luxury item. Nautique, Malibu and MC have positioned themselves to be very profitable in that marketplace. on the flip side of the coin…think basic white f250’s….. dealers order them optioned down and they always sell. It would be cool if there was an industry/club base model(tournament options only) boat. Centurion did not succeed because 1. It wasn’t a top three and 2. The marketing couldn’t compete.

I know a lot of boat owners/skiers that want a new boat but the price is holding them back. I’m one of them.  It’s unfortunate and I think a brand should capitalize on it. There are skiers out there that just want a great pull that meets all certified standards. 

Nautique should have done w the old 200 hull. Instead, they muddied the waters with an all new 200. 

I know this is all been talked about, but man I don’t understand why it can’t happen. If we are ever fortunate enough to have one of the big three do it for us… God, I hope people support it. I think it could be a great way for Malibu to increase their tournaments presence … Especially with how great people skied at the Malibu open. Let’s give that boat a chance and get people behind it! Where it’s priced right now… It will never be a player. Clubs, schools, tournament organizers and skiers will take the more tournament used option any day.

 

 

 

[UWSkier]

Those who have said that the used boat market cannibalizes the new stripper boat market are correct.  I'd rather have a 5 year old boat with all the nice stuff than a brand new boat that looks like a bath tub with an OG, round ZO gauge.

[UWSkier]

5 minutes ago, APB said:

You can go to almost any dealer and order an optioned down boat. Options are the problem.

For a lot of people a ski boat is a status symbol and luxury item. Nautique, Malibu and MC have positioned themselves to be very profitable in that marketplace. on the flip side of the coin…think basic white f250’s….. dealers order them optioned down and they always sell. It would be cool if there was an industry/club base model(tournament options only) boat. Centurion did not succeed because 1. It wasn’t a top three and 2. The marketing couldn’t compete.

I know a lot of boat owners/skiers that want a new boat but the price is holding them back. I’m one of them.  It’s unfortunate and I think a brand should capitalize on it. There are skiers out there that just want a great pull that meets all certified standards. 

Nautique should have done w the old 200 hull. Instead, they muddied the waters with an all new 200. 

I know this is all been talked about, but man I don’t understand why it can’t happen. If we are ever fortunate enough to have one of the big three do it for us… God, I hope people support it. I think it could be a great way for Malibu to increase their tournaments presence … Especially with how great people skied at the Malibu open. Let’s give that boat a chance and get people behind it! Where it’s priced right now… It will never be a player. Clubs, schools, tournament organizers and skiers will take the more tournament used option any day.

 

 

 

Malibus are used at quite a few sites in Europe.  Hazelwoods, French Malibu Open, Jollyski, etc.  Not sure why they're not more popular here.  BUT, as @Broussard mentioned, Malibu did exactly what you said when they released the current TXi back in 2017.  It was a basic boat, that from outside of the boat (for the image-conscious), looked EXACTLY like the "high end" TXi.  I don't know if the price delta was just too small or what, but they barely sold any of those.

[dave2ball]

@Dano you mentioned the Sanger as a great model example.   Well that DXII really sucks to drive and skis even worse. They were tried on the west coast for a very short amount to time in tournaments and They ended up on the trailer and asked not to come back.   Sanger makes a great barefoot and flat bottom/ jet boats but  true comp boat they flat out sucked.    There are reasons some boats are great price points.   And this is one of them.     

[Dano]

@dave2ball you missed the point entirely.  We can choose to disagree.  I'm good with that.

[dave2ball]

@Dano I see your point for a bare bones boat. Unfortunately the numbers  don’t support 

moving that direction     

 

[DW]

New boat cost - an item most people will not be aware of, the cost of the engine has gone up substantially.  Why? - the old marine small block Chevy was being cranked out dirt cheap from a plant in Mexico where the tooling was paid for years ago.  Once that stock was used up, the cost jumped because the industry also migrated to the LS series small block.  The all aluminum LS costs the marinizers significantly more which has to be passed on.  It also required tooling up all new ancillaries such as brackets, mounts, exhaust manifolds, etc.  Add some Cats to that and the fact a boat is a giant hydrocarbon bathtub and those prices have also jumped. 

[swc5150]

When the CP was in production, the sales guy at our closest Centurion dealership hadn't even heard of it.  That certainly didn't help sales.  This is always a fun topic though:)

[Jody_Seal]

sitting on the floor right now is a new H6 raw water cooled pcm and transmission. right at $20k with shipping and tax.. 

2.5 times cost is the common number in this industry as to how much the end user will be charged for a item. with that in mind. the boat companies have far better bying power   for raw goods and materials. 

the same h6 to the boat manufacturer will be substantially less price wise maybe as much as $5k. so now go inventory the rest of the components and materials into the boat and one will find the cost going out the manufacturer door will be as much as 2.5 times less then what the end customer sale will be. so if a new boat is $135k divided by 2.5 equals $54K That the manufacturer has into the product before markup to the dealer. dealer cost on that boat now is close to $80k or more. dealer has to pay flooring (sometimes) as well as prep and a sales commission of 7-10% to the salesperson.. 

in the big picture with this somewhat Grey scenario one can see why it is far more profitable to build big boats vs small ski boats. 

some have said the waterski aspect of the boat industry should be lucky manufacturers are still building ski boats ...

[Horton]

@Jody_Seal I think it is fair to say that you are also explaining why the current cost of boats is not price gouging. 

[foxriverat]

70 k for a barebones boat is still way too expensive for this middle class guy.

[swc5150]

It's confusing to me...and not trying to earn a panda here, but for real.  Are we lucky ski boats are still being made, or are there really 5 people behind me ready to pay up if I don't buy one?

[Jody_Seal]

54 minutes ago, Horton said:

@Jody_Seal I think it is fair to say that you are also explaining why the current cost of boats is not price gouging. 

I think so. like it or not the inboard marine industry is in reality a off shoot of the automotive industry and we are like plumbers. with the decline of competitive water-skiing the new ski boat market is at an all time low. taking up production space for a low volume boat is not what a major builder will do when the bigger higher volume as well as profit margins boat can be built on its place. 

it would take a small builder like Sanger to produce and market a ski boat in the lower price range. they are not feeding the beast within..

[UWSkier]

1 hour ago, swc5150 said:

It's confusing to me...and not trying to earn a panda here, but for real.  Are we lucky ski boats are still being made, or are there really 5 people behind me ready to pay up if I don't buy one?

I think we're lucky the manufacturers aren't using the build slots for more profitable models.  Direct drives used to be "watersports boats" that people would start out in, then maybe move into V drives as families grew, interests diversified, etc.  Now people starting out wanting a "ski boat" are buying used or bare-bones V drives to start with, and graduating to big barges.  It's also why the newer DDs seem to be more utilitarian than their predecessors.  My '01 Malibu RLX came with all the same luxury amenities as the highest-spec V drive of that year.  They still marketed it as a boat for a skiing family, kinda.  You don't see any marketing anymore with a direct drive as a boat for the family man.

[03RLXi]

Anyone wanting brand new and prepared to spend $70k is also likely to be willing to spend $100k. Will probably appeal more to those considering a fairly new but used boat and then seeing this brand new at similar price.

Discussion needs to be is the difference justifiable. The Sanger has the same or similar basics as a current top 3 so if we pretend that enough boats are built by each that R&D and tooling costs can be ignored (which they can't but for sake of argument lets ignore them) is the extra $30k the top 3 charge for their boats justifiable considering the difference is plusher seats, some touch screens, vast amounts of seadek, etc? i.e. if the hull, trailer, engine, transmission cost the same the difference is the fitout and electronics package. Is that justifiably worth $30k?      

[BGrow76]

Hopefully the Pista01 ski boat that @arturonelson is involved in works out. Looking at https://alahua.mx/blogs/noticias/pista01 is shows a base price of $79,000.

[BraceMaker]

They're just the wrong boats to make "cheap" versions of.

Groups of buyers.

International - @BGrow76 sure a boat made and sold to places that don't want to pay for a US made boat to be shipped and imported and tariffs 100% great place to have an alternative to buying a SN or Mastercraft or Malibu if something made in mexico will play nothing would be better than the IWWF saying that Pista and Boesch and 100 other ski boats are IWWF certified and let the world stage drive the big 3 in the US into a corner.

Show ski and barefoot - Hydrodyne and sanger and whatever fast boats, outboard boats boats that go 60 and have provisions to pull pyramids, show ski, triple outboard rigs, and towers with extensions to do triple flips on your hydrofoil - don't need to be AWSA towboats and that's a thing.

Stripped down versions or 2nd tier versions of boats targeting AWSA approval your carbon pro, your ski nautique 200 - you have a ski lake you ski tournaments, you want a new boat, you don't care that you're not training behind or getting the support of being a big 3.

Buyers who live on ski lakes but the ski lake has a club boat and they just want to own a used one for less because they just use it on weekends with friends.

And then there's the HUGE market of public lake boaters who want a boat that does everything a true crossover someone stick a https://www.indmar.com/engines/23l-ecoboost/ in a DD hull based off a Prostar 205 from the mid90s or a Malibu TXi, reduce the engine cover as much as you can, modernize the top deck of the boat to get as much seating as you can, make the front bow as big as you can increase the freeboard as much as you can while just making sure it slaloms pretty OK at 28 MPH 15 off through 34 MPH 35 off and that's the boat.  You'll sell more of that than anything else that engine is 300+ HP it can have ZO off  I am your buyer.  I own 2 prostars a pontoon and an I/O.  We pull the I/O and put a second ski boat in when we don't have a ton of guests so we can pull more skiers.  Literally we need a ski boat that's not absurd to ski behind that can competently go down 1.5-2' chop with out soaking the seating and has speed control for lower speed activities.  Preferably with provisions to tarp and trailer.

[Horton]

what?

[DW]

@BraceMaker - a category not included in above post:   BOS members, slalom addicts, pro skiers, etc.  These customers demand / want the very latest hull designs, best and most powerful engines for short setups, optimized GPS guided speed control w/ .001% error, easy to use information screens, great handling & rock solid pull through course, latest prop to reduce wake, comfy seats, great sightlines, etc, etc.  Result - the awesome Prostars, Nautiques, Malibu's that unfortunately cost $100k+ that people are willing and capable of purchasing.  It's the R&D cost, premium materials (engines/ZO) that separate these boats from the budget boat not just leaving off premium vinyl, seadeck, deckadence.

In the immortal words don't stop making them:-)

[RAWSki]

@Dano hit the nail on the head  if its not a MC or SN then noses will be turned up high.  Love that Sanger is doing something unique and "Retro"   Recall Centurion also invested in AWSA approval and supported local regional and national tournaments throughout its run.  I dont recall anyone complaining that they had to ski a tournament round behind a CP usually the opposite.  

I also dont agree with the CP being classified as a "stripper".  Having owned and promoed 2 for several years.  Asisde from the dash interface ----- I cant recall missing anything. ZeroOff,  The fuel gauge worked, had a heater and heated seats, good quality vinyl, dual side fuel fills, unique gun sight drivers aid, oh yeah and pretty sure it introduced SeaDeck to the ski boat market.  (OK that last one might be a negative!)

[BraceMaker]

1 hour ago, DW said:

@BraceMaker - a category not included in above post:   BOS members, slalom addicts, pro skiers, etc. 

Yes those people were purposefully excluded are any of them going to buy this Sanger for 70++ instead of __________________ buying a used MC/SN/Malibu?

Look you want to sell a bunch of boats? Look at the boats that are selling like hotcakes by everyone who isn't those three, we know what they are selling and that's wake barges and a handful of ski boats.  My local marina sells several hundred 19-24' I/O boats a year the other several marinas around me same thing Cobalts Four Winns etc.  They sell a metric ton of pontoon boats.  

Unless you think you're creating a market for a new buyer (this boat doesn't) then you need to be targeting someone to buy it.  The vast majority of new boat sales in the US are like I just mentioned the 19'-24' run about or bass boats and if you can blend a ski boat into that market you can create a market that IMO doesn't exist buyers like myself if that boat exists are replacing several boats with a single boat - if you can make it.  Again this is not that boat to me this is like what would I do if I wanted to have my same 1990s boat but have it cost 60K more.

[Dano]

I think the OP's original post was just pointing out that it was super cool to see a brand new DD being offered at nearly half the price of others.  Proving a boat can be brought to market at that price point.  The post was not about the hull design, or weather or not the boat can compete with MC or Nautique. Simply that the boat has all the basics of a new tournament boat as far as Engine and ZO goes so what exactly is costing the additional 75k for a new tournament boat?  Jody Seal has already pointed out some of the hidden costs and that is fair.  I'm not trying to take anything away from the current manufacturers.  The big 3 have established themselves as the pemium ski boats, the best of the best. They deserve their dollars.  But just as Ferrari can exist, so can a corvette. 

 

 

[DW]

@Dano - in all fairness, it can be done if you have all the molds laying around and paid for.  The DXII is not a fresh design, and good on them for bringing it back as there must be a demand for them.