Cost to put in a slalom course?

[MitchellM]

I would like to put in a slalom course on Lake Agnes in Polk City, Florida.  The lake has an average depth of 10 feet and has several spots that seem suitable.  My neighbor tells me there were two courses on the lake in the past that his sons used when they were competing.  I am new to the lake and just learning the topography.

This is a 377 acre public lake.  I presume I would need some sort of permit?  Any idea of the cost to put in a permanent course?  How do I select the best location and orientation?

I have considered a portable Insta-Slalom course, but I am hesitant about the time and effort required to put the course in place and remove.  Plus, I only have my malibu LXI which is less than ideal for installing these portable courses.

Call out to Jon Travers has been sent already, but I was curious about the collective wisdom here.

[kc]

I have zero knowledge of permitting a slalom course in Florida. I would think a Google search would provide  information. It’s probably under the jurisdiction of the Dept. of Natural Resources, or whatever it’s known as in Florida. You may also have to get signatures from a certain percentage of the lake property owners. The fact that there were courses on the lake in the past, may help your chances for approval.

Does your neighbor know if the old courses were permanent? If they were, the anchors may still be in place. If you do go the portable/cable type route, you don’t have remove it, once installed, unless you’re only able to get permission for a course that must be removed when not in use. Jon Travers, obviously is an excellent source for all things slalom courses. Good luck!

[lpskier]

I’d reach out to Lucky Lowe or Ricky McCormick. They both live in the neighborhood and have several courses. Also Scot Ellis and Tom Asher. 

[ETskier]

Find out from your neighbor approximately where the 2 courses were located. Then make friend with a fisherman who can help you find the anchors with his fishfinder graph.

[swbca]

First find the Jurisdiction that issues permits.  State laws may govern the use of slalom courses, but they may have delegated permitting and enforcement to Counties or Cities.  It some areas a course that is not on the surface at night does not require a permit.  This means a portable course setup for the day would not require a permit.  It may also mean you can have a submersible course without a permit provided it is submerged at night.

With or without the need for a permit, a submersible course is the easiest thing to live with.  You can be skiing within a few minutes of anytime you see conditions are good for skiing.  There are a few ways to build a submersible course.  They all require a bit of work to get them installed and calibrated, but once done can provide decades of skiing whenever you want.

Edited November 13, 2023 by swbca

[LeonL]

You need to PM @skierjp.  He will probably see this post though.  He lives in Polk county and knows all the details that you need to know..

[MitchellM]

Polk County does not issue permits for slalom courses, but they do have standards for their placement.  These standards were emailed to me today.  I am required to obtain a permit from the Florida Department of Environmental Protection.

[MDB1056]

I'd strongly recommend an Accufloat floating course for a permanent or semi permanent application.  Extremely heavy duty. Coated stainless steel mainline, all PVC is heavy sched 40, heavy duty connectors, etc. These are not nearly as easy to install as other floating courses but that's due to heavy duty components. Those also help them stay super straight. Much easier compared to dealing with individual anchors etc, and can be of course removed if needed. I picked up one 5-6 years ago for only $300, quickly learned it was a bear to work with if planning in and out a lot as I was. Sold it and replaced with much easier poly line and 2" PVC with spring clips etc. Easy in and out even by myself using a pontoon. Your type of application will have a lot to do with options and costs. Yes a magic submersible course that appears with the touch of a button would be wonderful, but every design I've seen has a lot of moving parts and things that can go wrong and gives me maintenance nightmares.  Will be curious what path you take.           

 

[Oldkier]

Just went up on ski-it-again complete course 100 dollars

[MitchellM]

7 minutes ago, Oldkier said:

Just went up on ski-it-again complete course 100 dollars

That's a great deal and won't last long.  Very tempted to get my feet wet with that one.

[6balls]

Get permitted, buy a course, drop it in.  Keep lots of lines/zip strips/extra buoys in your boat for repairs when you get there to ski and find buoys missing.  Scissors, wire cutter, dive goggles in boat.  Heavy anchors.  Tighten initially with something other than an inboard ie) outboard jon-boat or pontoon in reverse--gives steady pressure w/out course damage.  

[skierjp]

@MitchellM If you go with a floating course only use a Accufloat. Insta courses won’t hold up. That lake can get extremely windy. If you put a floating course in and you run into trouble with fisherman or property owners your chances of getting a permit are slim. If done correctly I have never known of a course permit that was denied. Usually in Florida you want to be on the east shore going north and south.If the lake is heavily fished and has a public ramp which it does, a floating course might not be the way to go. Just remember, if you go the  cheap route you will regret it when it comes time for maintenance and repairs. I have 2 surveyed courses and  2 Suyderhound Accufloat courses. There is a gentleman by the name of Chester Trump that has lived on that lake for a long time he can probably give you some insight. I believe his sons were wakeboarders. 

[MitchellM]

7 hours ago, skierjp said:

@MitchellM If you go with a floating course only use a Accufloat. Insta courses won’t hold up. That lake can get extremely windy. If you put a floating course in and you run into trouble with fisherman or property owners your chances of getting a permit are slim. If done correctly I have never known of a course permit that was denied. Usually in Florida you want to be on the east shore going north and south.If the lake is heavily fished and has a public ramp which it does, a floating course might not be the way to go. Just remember, if you go the  cheap route you will regret it when it comes time for maintenance and repairs. I have 2 surveyed courses and  2 Suyderhound Accufloat courses. There is a gentleman by the name of Chester Trump that has lived on that lake for a long time he can probably give you some insight. I believe his sons were wakeboarders. 

Thanks for the insight.  Someone here gave me the contact information for Lee Trump who is Chester's son.

Seems to me that the northeastern shore of the lake would be well suited for a course.  Just along the area owned by Fantasy in Flight.  I am told there was a course in that location years ago along with a second course in the cove where my house is located.

I'll be meeting with Jon Travers to hear his advice and recommendations.  I have contacted the state to get the permit process started as advised by Polk County officials.

[H2Oski17]

MitchellM— Check your Messages.  I’m moving to the Polk City area and have experience w floating courses and submersible courses.  BTW—10ft is almost the perfect depth for a submersible course.

[skierjp]

@Mitchellm Traveling west towards Tampa there was a course on the west side going north and south. FYI, Kermit who owners Fantasy of Flight skis. A few years ago he was restoring a MasterCraft. 

[MitchellM]

7 hours ago, skierjp said:

@Mitchellm Traveling west towards Tampa there was a course on the west side going north and south. FYI, Kermit who owners Fantasy of Flight skis. A few years ago he was restoring a MasterCraft. 

Interesting!  I did not know Mr. Weeks was a skier.  I may need to invite him out for a spin.

[Zman]

@MitchellM

 

Good luck with getting your course in. I lived across I4 on Lake Tennessee for 7 years in the 90s.

Would love to have another lake to get a set in when in Polk Co visiting old friends!

I used to love watching Kermit Weeks and a few of his friends flying around with their vintage aircraft while sitting by our pool. The restaurant (open any more?) at Fantasy of Flight was a favorite breakfast place for us.

[MitchellM]

18 hours ago, Zman said:

@MitchellM

 

Good luck with getting your course in. I lived across I4 on Lake Tennessee for 7 years in the 90s.

Would love to have another lake to get a set in when in Polk Co visiting old friends!

I used to love watching Kermit Weeks and a few of his friends flying around with their vintage aircraft while sitting by our pool. The restaurant (open any more?) at Fantasy of Flight was a favorite breakfast place for us.

Let me know when you're in town.  I'd be happy to give you a pull.

Looks like Jon Travers will be putting a course in for me shortly!

[Zman]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:50 AM, MitchellM said:

Let me know when you're in town.  I'd be happy to give you a pull.

Looks like Jon Travers will be putting a course in for me shortly!

Awesome.  You will be all set!

[Cnewbert]

@H2Oski17 I'm curious about your statement that a 10' lake depth is almost perfect for a submersible course.  Some friends and myself are planning to install a submersible course on our public lake, and water depth has been a topic of discussion.  The consensus is that 10' would be marginal at best, and wouldn't allow for any significant drop in the lake level.  Our thinking goes like this:  we'd want the mainline, diamonds, and PVC arms 5' below the surface when the course is raised.  When submerged we'd want the buoys a minimum of 5' deep.  So even if the sand ballast bags were secured directly to the PVC arms and not hanging on lines beneath them, we'd need a full 10' of water to sink the course properly, and at a 10' water depth the mainline and arms would be resting on the lake bottom itself, likely in weeds which are abundant in FL lakes.  As well, there would be no margin for error should the lake level go down.  Ideally however, we'd like the buoys 6' deep when submerged. We want enough depth below the arms to allow the sand ballast hang lines to be adjusted individually for variations in depth that will certainly occur in any natural lake, and so the arms and mainline float above the bottom and above any weeds when the course is submerged.  Our thinking is 15' depth is the minimum we'd look for.  I'd be grateful for your thoughts on this.

[MitchellM]

16 minutes ago, Cnewbert said:

@H2Oski17 I'm curious about your statement that a 10' lake depth is almost perfect for a submersible course.  Some friends and myself are planning to install a submersible course on our public lake, and water depth has been a topic of discussion.  The consensus is that 10' would be marginal at best, and wouldn't allow for any significant drop in the lake level.  Our thinking goes like this:  we'd want the mainline, diamonds, and PVC arms 5' below the surface when the course is raised.  When submerged we'd want the buoys a minimum of 5' deep.  So even if the sand ballast bags were secured directly to the PVC arms and not hanging on lines beneath them, we'd need a full 10' of water to sink the course properly, and at a 10' water depth the mainline and arms would be resting on the lake bottom itself, likely in weeds which are abundant in FL lakes.  As well, there would be no margin for error should the lake level go down.  Ideally however, we'd like the buoys 6' deep when submerged. We want enough depth below the arms to allow the sand ballast hang lines to be adjusted individually for variations in depth that will certainly occur in any natural lake, and so the arms and mainline float above the bottom and above any weeds when the course is submerged.  Our thinking is 15' depth is the minimum we'd look for.  I'd be grateful for your thoughts on this.

Interesting discussion.  Have you checked the depth of the lake where you plan on putting in the course?  I mentioned 10 feet as the average depth of my lake, but what does that actually mean?  We are going to survey the actual depth where we are planning to put the course in later this week.

[Cnewbert]

@MitchellM I think depth only really matters if you are putting in a sinker course and water that is too shallow would not allow the course to be sunk deep enough for it to be out of sight, out of mischief and out of trouble.  We're going to install a WallySinker course, but I got the impression you intend to install a floating course in which case 10' depth would not be a concern.

[GaryJanzig]

On Lake Latonka we have an Accufloat course which has been there for over 25 years. It is a private lake, but with similar traffic to a public lake. It is 15-20 feet deep where ours is located. We only submerge it for the winter. We use mason string to attach the buoys so if a tuber or jet skier goes by it will break off without damaging the structure under water. The strings are tied to brass swivel snaps(dog leash clips) which are clipped to the eyebolts on the arms.  To submerge we swap out the buoys with antifreeze jugs(zip tied to their own clips) half full of water and let it sink. It floats a foot off the bottom. I have a custom made grappling hook with smooth edges to find it in the spring from my canoe.  If you want to sink it while in service, put a 40 pound anchor in the middle of the gates on the arms, then detach the skier buoys and let it sink. The Accufloat kit comes with instructions on how to sink it. +The important thing is to keep the pipes from filling with mud while submerged, they will break from the weight.  When I swap out the buoys I can sink it in about an hour by myself, and bringing it up in the spring takes two hours. Never tried the 40 pound weight method.

[LeonL]

@GaryJanzig 

10 hours ago, GaryJanzig said:

10 hours ago, GaryJanzig said:

floats a foot off the bottom 

Once it becomes non buoyant,  why does it not go all the way to the bottom?

 

 

[ScottScott]

For me, 10' is pretty minimum for any slalom course in Fl. If I am replacing buoys, or when I fall, I like the thought that my feet dangling below are at least a couple feet above the gator sleeping on the bottom.

[MitchellM]

27 minutes ago, ScottScott said:

For me, 10' is pretty minimum for any slalom course in Fl. If I am replacing buoys, or when I fall, I like the thought that my feet dangling below are at least a couple feet above the gator sleeping on the bottom.

I'll keep that in mind!

[Cnewbert]

@ScottScott to say nothing of the snapping turtles and water moccasins. 😂

[ScottScott]

40 minutes ago, Cnewbert said:

@ScottScott to say nothing of the snapping turtles and water moccasins. 😂

Yeah, they're all there....but the turtles and moccasins are there no matter what depth there is. Dropping at the end of a course is often closer to shore, pushing limits to the shoreline where you may touch bottom. I almost always wonder if i'm going to drop in on top of a sleeping gator.  Of course closer to the lilly pads you always have a chance of a moccasins slithering out. The turtles are pretty much everywhere. 

[Cnewbert]

@ScottScott  yet somehow, against all odds, we live to tell about it!

 

[MitchellM]

Here I've just been worried about getting around one ball.

[MDB1056]

Gators don't actually sleep on the bottom . They need to breathe. 

[ScottScott]

@MDB1056. Can't tell if thats a joke or not....  they can stay underwater for hours

[jjfresh]

Not the comments I want to be seeing regarding gators and FL...it's one of the main reasons I still debate about moving there.  There aren't any gators in VA I have to worry about.  Whether that peace of mind is better than 24/7 sunshine and warm weather I'm not sure yet.

[buechsr]

12 hours ago, jjfresh said:

Not the comments I want to be seeing regarding gators and FL...it's one of the main reasons I still debate about moving there.  There aren't any gators in VA I have to worry about.  Whether that peace of mind is better than 24/7 sunshine and warm weather I'm not sure yet.

They're nothing to worry about.  My daughter literally had to jump off the starting dock in a tournament last year with one 50 feet away.  Gator-fear is irrational, particularly in football, lol.

[Cnewbert]

@jjfresh If you are debating about moving to Florida, gators should be the least of your worries.  It's FL drivers you need to fear!  The riskiest part of water skiing is driving to the lake as there are no documented attacks on water skiers by gators in FL (nor any other state for that matter).  But if you are in Florida and decide to go in the ocean to swim or surf, just be aware FL leads the nation in shark attacks, and is often referred to as the "shark attack capital of the world".  So if by some miracle you survive the drive to the beach, enter the ocean with extreme caution! 😄

[GaryJanzig]

@leonL     With the jugs attached to the pipes while submerged I am guessing how deep it goes. When I drag my grappling hook from my canoe in the spring to bring it up it feels like the cable is only a foot off the bottom. The 41 foot arms have 3 jugs attached each with about a half gallon volume of air to keep it from sinking into the mud.  On the end where the skier buoys are I have a counterweight attached which is a half gallon jug filled with sand. A half gallon volume of air is enough to bring the end of the pipe back to the surface. I attach the jugs fulled with sand to keep it from coming back to the surface. In the past I have tried adding more water to the jugs to make it go down, but last year I had two pipes get stick in the mud. For the main anchors we have a 300 pound diesel camshaft on one end and a 200 pound girder with legs at the other. We use a comealong to keep the course tight. We broke a cable once when trying to straighten it out with a boat tugging on it. We got it as tight as we could by hand, and put two loops in one of the anchor lines and attached the comealong to the loops. If the course starts to bend we can crank it a few times to straighten it out. We can also loosen it up if we have to do any structural repairs. We have it set up where the water line on the buoys is six feet from the cable and pipes.

[skierjp]

When we sink our Accufloats here in Florida it is because a hurricane is coming. We have 2 Accufloats and 2 surveyed courses. All we do to sink the course is remove both boat lane buoys and the turn buoy, the antifreeze jug that is attached directly on the PVC between the inside boat lane and turn buoy stays on. The course is approx in 18’ of water. We attach a long rope to the inside boat lane  buoy eye bolt approx 20’ with an old buoy floating on the surface. When finished there will be 8 marker buoys on the surface, one at every gate. The reason for the marker rope on the inside boat lane eye bolt is when floating the course the pipe will surface easier. If you want you can also leave the outside boat lane buoy on, the course will still sink to the bottom. We use a 4’ 1/4 polypropylene rope permanently attached to the eyebolt on the course and the large plastic clips from Wally Skier to the buoy. All rope ends are fidded, NO knots. When you raise the course all you will have is buoys in your boat the ropes are left on the course. 1 ski boat and 2 people and the course can be sunk or floated in less than 30 minutes. 
FYI 23 years of lakefront living and skiing in Florida and not 1 gator issue and never seen a water moccasin in the lake or on my dock. Most people mistake the black water snakes as Moccasins. 

[lpskier]

@GaryJanzig Hey Gary: Being something of an old hand with Accufloat courses, I would be very reluctant to put a come along on the cable for fear of putting too much tension on the cable and breaking whatever happens to be the weak link. When I maintained the course (for about 30 years)  I would only tighten by hand. I’d have a loop in the anchor line maybe forty feet from the end of the course and a small block carabinered to the course. Run the bitter end of the anchor line though the block, then back through the loop on the anchor line and then pull everything tight. My trick was to put totally empty large detergent jugs on the anchor lines, somewhere around the middle between the anchor and the course. When I tighten the course by hand, the jugs sink. Once I’ve tied off, the jugs try their best to float to the surface. This effort to float pulls the course tight and keeps it tight, even of the water level rises or falls,  plus or minus a foot or so on our lake. Once you figure out the system, you always have a straight course and you rarely have to tinker with the course tension. 
 

My course was in 20+ feet of water. My system probably would not work well in shallow water. I also ran about 100’ of anchor line to the course, so the total length was 150’ or so to have enough length to connect to the course and tighten.
 

 

[Mastercrafter]

So.. I’m curious if you’d share.. What’s the cost for a new permanent course? You said JT is installing one for you and I see on Instagram he’s busy pouring concrete anchors. 

[lpskier]

This is five doors down the street from my house on South Lake Conway in Orlando today. I think the bulge in the middle could a four year old…
 

Seriously, you are significantly more likely to see a gator on a golf course than on your ski lake. On the other hand, I wouldn’t let my dog play in or near the water from dusk to dawn. 

[thager]

Hope that pet has a collar or is chipped in case it runs off!

[ScottScott]

15 hours ago, lpskier said:

you are significantly more likely to see a gator on a golf course than on your ski lake

SEE a gator.....maybe. Doesn't mean they aren't there. Presume if there's a body of water, there's a gator in it. Its a rare lake that doesn't, and if it doesn't now it may tomorrow (especially in the spring.) In the winter you're more likely to see it laying on the banks, in the summer you can assume they're sleeping on the bottom till dusk (only coming up for air every couple hours.)

Still, a skier has a better chance of getting struck by lightning than an encounter with a gator (which isn't really saying much in central florida.)

[skihacker]

Got done skiing an hour ago, just as the wife got back on the platform a small one is floating middle of lake maybe 100 ft off back of boat, not super happy but it took off as soon as another boat approached, still beats shoveling snow I say!!

[jjfresh]

5 hours ago, ScottScott said:

In the winter you're more likely to see it laying on the banks, in the summer you can assume they're sleeping on the bottom till dusk (only coming up for air every couple hours.)

And what's what scares me the most - the ones you can't see.  Like what if I drop and I step on that sucker???

[lpskier]

@jjfresh That‘s what the “gator pass” is for. “Heads up, guys. We’re skiing.” 
 

@ScottScott I follow the “out of sight, out of mind” philosophy. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by lpskier

[ScottScott]

@lpskier yes to the gator pass.  Includes a little trolling by the Lilly pads at end of course.

 

Good thing reactions aren't allowed in this thread. There'd be a lot of off topics being thrown around.  Sorry @MitchellM

[MitchellM]

1 hour ago, ScottScott said:

@lpskier yes to the gator pass.  Includes a little trolling by the Lilly pads at end of course.

 

Good thing reactions aren't allowed in this thread. There'd be a lot of off topics being thrown around.  Sorry @MitchellM

@ScottScott yes, this thread did take an ugly turn.

[jjfresh]

Well to get it back on track, have you head back from anyone in Florida regarding the placement of the course? 

[MitchellM]

20 hours ago, jjfresh said:

Well to get it back on track, have you head back from anyone in Florida regarding the placement of the course? 

Yes, I actually heard back from someone at the Florida DEP last week.  She actually seemed excited because the request for a slalom course permit was very unusual and required some investigation.  I am in the process of completing the application.  Jon Travers was out on site yesterday and we have agreed on the location.  Hopefully the permitting process will go smoothly.

[jjfresh]

Sweet.  Keep us updated.