And you thought Safe Sport requirement would be the end....

[markn]

little league.pdf

When SS became a requirement for skiing, I was one of the many who quit competitive skiing. Stated that conformance was acceptance.  Also warned about the lost art of drawing the line and that SS was only the beginning.  Before reading the attached opinion piece from the Wall Street Journal, even I could not have envisioned the extent to which politicians would go in their efforts to control every aspect of our lives.  Now I know. I take no joy in being correct in my prediction.

 

 

 

[buechsr]

1 hour ago, markn said:

little league.pdf 98.27 kB · 49 downloads

When SS became a requirement for skiing, I was one of the many who quit competitive skiing. Stated that conformance was acceptance.  Also warned about the lost art of drawing the line and that SS was only the beginning.  Before reading the attached opinion piece from the Wall Street Journal, even I could not have envisioned the extent to which politicians would go in their efforts to control every aspect of our lives.  Now I know. I take no joy in being correct in my prediction.

 

 

 

I don't follow your logic as to what an insurer mandated requirement of safe sport has to do with this commission, nor how safe sport initiatives in any way control "every" (let alone any) aspect of your life unless you knowingly choose to enter a forum in which you submit to their jurisdiction. 

As for proposed tax benefits to help offset the extraordinary modern expense of youth sports and simultaneous gutting of school sports programs, and as the father of 3 very active kids with pricy endeavors, I wholly applaud it!

 

[DvarianDan Johnson]

@markn - IMO you're way over reacting to a pretty benign piece.  

[jcamp]

So I might get a tax break? OH THE TYRANNY!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[markn]

The responses validate the concern.  Granted, I am more than likely older than the respondents (nearly 68) and my generation was far less conditioned to accept and questioned giving up "freedoms for security or comfort".  From elementary school through college, I participated in  several sports and never once was the topic of "equity" brought up nor the idea of central control in return for a tax break.    Other than to have more centralized control over kids sports and to further advance specific policies, why is there a need for "a new office of sports and fitness in charge of  coordinating and developing youth and grass roots sports"?  Once the office is established, what other new policies will be implemented??

Further, in what economic world does it make sense offering funds from health savings accounts to be used for sports equipment and travel expenses?  (mental health and exercise?? )   Sounds very much like "buying" the acceptance of more centralized control over youth sports.

While I respect the opinions of  others, my position on this proposal has not changed.

 

[The_MS]

Look at these quotes. 
It recommends an overhaul of youth athletics development to improve “equity”
 

But this system has fallen out of balance, and more Government Intervention is required

The agency would run a competitive grant program and set minimum safety standards and best practices. 

Crap like this should scare the bijibius out of any parent. They actually want to use HSA money to pay for youth sports and equipment? In 2024 the interest on the debt is going to be larger than the defense budget.  Wake the F up people. Congress has a 15% approval rating and you want these people to draw up rules for competitive Waterskiing ? 

 

 

[buechsr]

1 hour ago, markn said:

The responses validate the concern.  Granted, I am more than likely older than the respondents (nearly 68) and my generation was far less conditioned to accept and questioned giving up "freedoms for security or comfort".  From elementary school through college, I participated in  several sports and never once was the topic of "equity" brought up nor the idea of central control in return for a tax break.    Other than to have more centralized control over kids sports and to further advance specific policies, why is there a need for "a new office of sports and fitness in charge of  coordinating and developing youth and grass roots sports"?  Once the office is established, what other new policies will be implemented??

Further, in what economic world does it make sense offering funds from health savings accounts to be used for sports equipment and travel expenses?  (mental health and exercise?? )   Sounds very much like "buying" the acceptance of more centralized control over youth sports.

While I respect the opinions of  others, my position on this proposal has not changed.

 

Do you want to talk about A) safe sport or B) your article?  They're 2 different things.  Either way, what "freedoms" are being sacrificed for "security or comfort" for either A or B, above?  

I would like to respond to your second paragraph in the meantime.  Given your generation, largely speaking, enjoyed the benefits of school (government) funding of sports programs (and at a minimum you enjoyed things like PE classes and recess), you'd be surprised what the current landscape is for kids sports, both for recreational and elite programs.  You may have heard there is a childhood obesity situation brewing.  Were you aware that recess, PE, and school-sponsored sports have been cut dramatically?  You would not believe the lack of school-provided opportunities for physical education and sports these days.  It's starkly different than that which you got to enjoy if you played sports "from elementary through college". 

My son plays 3 varsity sports at a public high school.  His current winter sport requires the team to be virtually entirely self-funded.  They're not even  provided uniforms from the school, let alone equipment.  We literally have to pay for bus rides, expenses, coaches, uniforms, all of it.  And that's just one sport, of 1 kid.  I will easily pay into the 5 figures for kids sports this year.  I (and my kids) are  fortunate, but there are kids out there who literally have no opportunity to play a sport because they don't exist at scale in middle school unless you go to a private school, and can't afford to do so in high school.  My son's current team has lost players mid-season because they simply could not afford it, let alone the kids who knew going in they could not afford it.  Lost a kid not long ago that already has a job, is part of a magnet program, with outstanding grades.  This is not an elite state team, this is high school!  There is a real affordability problem for youth sports.  A tax credit is at least an attempt to help provide the opportunity for kids to get the physical, mental, and social benefits of team sports, you bet!  It also seems to be a articulably valid HSA expenditure.  I'd concede that expensive elite programs and coaching require a different discourse, but in the absence of school provided opportunities and the wild west of private programs, this proposal is far down on my list of objections to valid use of "government oversight".  Is that because it's current and personal to me, probably.  But I also don't see the sky falling because there is recognition that there are serious problems brewing.  And when serious problems brew, government will get involved.  It is what it is.  Unlike you with competitive skiing, I'm not willing to tell my kids they can't play sports because the government is requiring a sacrifice of their rights.  I just don't see it that way. 

Cheers.  

 

 

 

[CharlieThreeThree]

Old white man feels threatened by change. You and your lines of thought are not original or at all useful.

[The_MS]

@buechsr what has changed in the last 30 years that has caused sports to get so expensive? 

[buechsr]

10 minutes ago, The_MS said:

@buechsr what has changed in the last 30 years that has caused sports to get so expensive? 

In my view, it's more of a shift than it is price increase.  What used to be part of school budgets, now falls on parents.  When those teams and opportunities can't be supported, people have to pay for any kind of athletic opportunities privately.  As to the rise of elite programs, its capitalism.  But there's only a market for it given the decline in school-sponsored athletic opportunities...in my view, of course.  

[MISkier]

Has USA Water Ski commented on the impact of this to our rules or organization?  Or, are we just having a general political discussion here?

[buechsr]

35 minutes ago, MISkier said:

Has USA Water Ski commented on the impact of this to our rules or organization?  Or, are we just having a general political discussion here?

All that has happened is that a committee has issued a report.  There has been no implementation of anything.

What's political about this?  I didn't see D's and R's mentioned?

Here’s a far better article on the report.  I find it pretty hard to disagree with much.

https://projectplay.org/news/olympic-reform-commission-report-analysis-next-steps

From that article:

”Policymakers should be motivated. Through its Healthy People 2030 initiative, the federal government has set a youth sport participation target of 63% by the end of the decade (it’s currently at 51%, according to the latest data). Last week, computer modeling experts, working with our Aspen Institute program, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services and researchers from five universities, released a peer-reviewed study showing that reaching that target will unlock $80 billion in direct medical costs saved and worker productivity gains due to improved physical and mental health into adulthood, plus another 1.8 million Quality Years of Life lived by today’s 6-to-17-year-olds.”

Seems reasonable to me.  We’re all familiar with our military recruitment deficiencies, largely result of recruits’ inability to pass requisite fitness standards.  No doubt the lack of school fitness and sport support has led to that national security issue.  That’s not political. That’s simply a statement of fact. It would seem whether you’re 68 years old, or 16, that reasonable efforts to improve the health and fitness of a fighting force is a reasonable goal.

[MISkier]

@buechsr, phrasing about "giving up freedoms" or "centralized control" tends to lead toward more political discussions, which may not necessarily list party affiliations explicitly (though it may be somewhat apparent what those are).

[buechsr]

7 minutes ago, MISkier said:

@buechsr, phrasing about "giving up freedoms" or "centralized control" tends to lead toward more political discussions, which may not necessarily list party affiliations explicitly (though it may be somewhat apparent what those are).

I totally disagree.  This thread is about a report that has the potential to impact NGBs including skiing.  One person opining that said report’s recommendations require sacrifice of “freedoms” does not make it a political discussion. 

[DvarianDan Johnson]

Much Ado About Nothing  so far.... 

[DonT]

taking @buechsr comments in a slightly different direction, as a boomer (ok, I acknowledge that), it used to be that youth athletes were encourage to participate in as many sports as possible - baseball, football, basketball, track, volleyball, etc.  Let youth find what they like from a menu of options.  There were few "elite/club sport" teams that required massive expenditures of money.  I grew up in a baseball world, where it was little league, then on to american legion feeding into HS teams.  Yes American Legion was a bit more money....stay with me here.

Fast forward to now - or when my now mid 20's to 30 YO kids played, there are very few multi sport athletes.  Youth are discouraged in playing multiple sports, but rather focus on one.  Which drives the idea of elite/club teams.  As an example, Soccer players are encouraged to play on club teams through the year, to the point that if you are not playing on a club team, your likelihood of playing varsity soccer is pretty much nil.  This one sport focus manifested itself in our family as I had one son told when he was high school swimming that he wasn't to snow ski, but getting up in the mountains was his way of maintaining mental health.  Fast forward to today and that's still true - as he took his passion for being outdoors to coaching youth as a freeride ski team coach.   

The idea of one sport focus, with accompanying elite/club/travel team membership coupled with the points made above where PE and School sports funding has been transferred to parents, this  price tag for participation in sports (and all HS activities in general) has skyrocketed.  

Rather than introduce another level of government oversight - and the corresponding increase in taxes, fund the entire education system (academics, sports, extra-curricular activities) at reasonable levels offering the opportunities to all socio-economic backgrounds and focus on developing well rounded individuals that can find the sport/activity that suits them - whether it's baseball, band, theater, debate.  Do this at the local level.  Remember, very few youth make it from youth sports e.g. AYSO soccer to the MLS.  

Moving this back to a water skiing discussion, as what I would call a niche sport, local clubs/ski sites need to offer opportunities at the grass roots level to introduce youth to the sport.  Take lover of water and outside beyond tubing - but to a social atmosphere where youth get together and just ski....pull the collegiate experience into earlier years.

Sorry for the long winded soapbox.

[markn]

Dang I love @The_MS!!  And for clarification @buechsr,  my Little league, Wild Cat baseball , competitive swimming , and recreational snow skiing was not government supported and certainly did not require oversight by some federal agency.  Further, I raced bicycles in college and the entire program was self funded with ZERO tax payer dollars.  And yes, we travelled and spent 3 weeks in Florida training.   As far as a childhood obesity problem, you are suggesting the remedy is more involvement from a newly formed government agency??   

 

 

[CharlieThreeThree]

I'm not sure what you're ranting about but maybe you can use those bootstraps you're so proud of to pull yourself out of whatever situation you're in?

[Jody_Seal]

@markn thanks for the incite. problem with this younger generation is that they want someone else to make the hard decisions rather then pull there own boot straps up and make these decisions. they have taken on the thought that government needs to make more agency's and create more bureaucrats to oversee these agency's. Blue big government ideology.

 

As for Safe sport, goes back to what was easy because no one in the leadership role has the balls to call out and enforce the congressional reporting mandate. Safe sport was easy as it came as a appendage of the USOC money's. again nothing in the congressional act requires a sport to utilize any overseeing entity's for reporting abuses in a sport. 

[markn]

@CharlieThreeThree As a result of choosing to be an underdog rather than a victim throughout my life, thanks to the bootstraps acquired, I don't think I could possibly be in a better situation.  But thanks for your concern.

[buechsr]

1 hour ago, markn said:

Dang I love @The_MS!!  And for clarification @buechsr,  my Little league, Wild Cat baseball , competitive swimming , and recreational snow skiing was not government supported and certainly did not require oversight by some federal agency.  Further, I raced bicycles in college and the entire program was self funded with ZERO tax payer dollars.  And yes, we travelled and spent 3 weeks in Florida training.   As far as a childhood obesity problem, you are suggesting the remedy is more involvement from a newly formed government agency??   

 

 

Your counterpoint involves little league and "recreational snow skiing" as indicative of, what exactly?  Uncle Sam didn't buy you new Rossignols?  And that's somehow congruent to high schools not providing football helmets?

As to the childhood obesity problem, I am suggesting that more kids than ever skip sports as a normal part of childhood, and that for many that's a result of unavailability and financial preclusion, in stark contrast to generations that came before them.

 

1 hour ago, Jody_Seal said:

@markn thanks for the incite. problem with this younger generation is that they want someone else to make the hard decisions rather then pull there own boot straps up and make these decisions. they have taken on the thought that government needs to make more agency's and create more bureaucrats to oversee these agency's. Blue big government ideology.

 

As for Safe sport, goes back to what was easy because no one in the leadership role has the balls to call out and enforce the congressional reporting mandate. Safe sport was easy as it came as a appendage of the USOC money's. again nothing in the congressional act requires a sport to utilize any overseeing entity's for reporting abuses in a sport. 

That's an awfully broad brush with which to paint in my opinion.  Adults have responsibilities to the next generation.  Can we all agree on that?  I would respectfully disagree that this commission is in any way demonstrative that "this younger generation" wants someone else to make the "hard decisions". 

In this specific context, they just want to be able to play the sports their elders had the opportunity to, an outcome that benefits everyone.

 

[buechsr]

22 hours ago, markn said:

little league.pdf 98.27 kB · 167 downloads

When SS became a requirement for skiing, I was one of the many who quit competitive skiing. Stated that conformance was acceptance.  Also warned about the lost art of drawing the line and that SS was only the beginning.  Before reading the attached opinion piece from the Wall Street Journal, even I could not have envisioned the extent to which politicians would go in their efforts to control every aspect of our lives.  Now I know. I take no joy in being correct in my prediction.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, markn said:

@CharlieThreeThree As a result of choosing to be an underdog rather than a victim throughout my life, thanks to the bootstraps acquired, I don't think I could possibly be in a better situation.  But thanks for your concern.

Uh, you quit competitive skiing over an hour-long video.   Do you not see the irony?

[kmenard]

In only pictures...demonstrate that too many of us are getting bored while waiting for the weather to change so we can argue about what the proper way to describe waterskiing movements is. 

[The_MS]

I would bet that USA waterski will soon be required to have a DEI department. 
“The 44 page report has 14 recommendations that aim to reimagine the way government supports our sport system from the moment a child first slips on a uniform”

Anytime you see the words like equity, reimagine, safety and funding, we have problems. 

[Skoot1123]

Hey - “I’m from the government and I’m here to help!” 
Wake up folks!!  It hasn’t been that long since we were all wearing masks (or forced to wear them).  What lessons did we learn from that?!  

[markn]

@buechsrFunny, I always thought of those who conformed to the mandate as the victims.  

[CharlieThreeThree]

4 hours ago, Skoot1123 said:

Hey - “I’m from the government and I’m here to help!” 
Wake up folks!!  It hasn’t been that long since we were all wearing masks (or forced to wear them).  What lessons did we learn from that?!  

My sister was a nurse who died from covid, you hole.

[buechsr]

16 hours ago, The_MS said:

I would bet that USA waterski will soon be required to have a DEI department. 
“The 44 page report has 14 recommendations that aim to reimagine the way government supports our sport system from the moment a child first slips on a uniform”

Anytime you see the words like equity, reimagine, safety and funding, we have problems. 

It was actually a 244 page report.  

The problems are here already.  In the last few years massive amount of SA uncovered,  decline in youth sports participation, major funding deficiencies and at the same time explosion of elite programs that preclude some of our best athletes from opportunities.  I fail to understand how this report causes more problems than those that are here now.   That said, it's just a report.  Action is needed in many areas.  Equity and reimagining are not boogeyman words.  As I live youth sports issues in the present, they are very legitimate issues.  

[swbca]

15 minutes ago, buechsr said:

Action is needed in many areas.  Equity and reimagining are not boogeyman words.  As I live youth sports issues in the present, they are very legitimate issues.  

As long as there aren't DEI activists that insist on and promote gender confusion among our children in sports.   

[Jody_Seal]

Being a Nanny sport has it's consequences. having to buy into a monopoly to participate in what constitutes safe Sports platform and business efforts. 501C Non for profit with a Marketing dept. saddling in with a government overseen entity and being monopolistic may be against anti trust laws? Seen their advertising, pretty slick highly professional adds and presentations. I wonder what their marketing budget is like??

 

Going in for a 5th run at the propaganda and indoctrination nanny ideology segment. USAWS and their monopolistic watch dogs require complete re-training every other year. Lucky me it's my year..

Edited March 8 by Jody_Seal

[buechsr]

While I'm no safesport apologist, I can appreciate their tall task.  They have 117 employees and a budget of $21M.  They field 150 reports a week.  20 a day.  Think about how crazy that is.  Examples of problems abound, but doesn't i mean its not anything other than overwhelmed...which is the problem, not safesport necessarily.  

Seems abundantly obvious to me the problems have long existed with solutions long overdue.  And I'll happily watch an hour long video to be part of the attempt to help the requisite solution, monopoly or not.  

[Jody_Seal]

@buechsr

 

Edited March 8 by Jody_Seal

[buechsr]

1 hour ago, Jody_Seal said:

@buechsr

 

lol...yep that'll be me doing my update as well (if that's what that's supposed to be a caricature of, I guess you could have picked other animals had you wanted to be mean).  Actually will be the first year I've had to do it "for" USAWS.  My prior "courses" through Safesport were for other organizations, which required far more than what USAWS requires.  Thankfully, they carried over. 

It is what it is Jody.  No doubt you were also on the zoom call with USAWS brass in which it was explained we can't get insurance without an educational program and as Safesport is obviously a leader (if not monopoly), seems like a good fit.  Where is there room for criticism?

If your homeowners insurer said we're not providing coverage unless you watch a property claim mitigation video every 2 years that's an hour long, we'd all do it.  This no different in my view.  A perfect solution with problems, you bet, but it IS a solution, for which there were no options.  Your proposals of a new organization still doesn't get around this reality now that every NGB, sport, organization, etc. is aware (on "notice") of these issues that are far too rampant.  

[Horton]

My concern is as follows:

BallOfSpray and water skiing, in general, need as many participants as possible. I want to avoid any conflicts among you for reasons unrelated to skiing. I've noticed that some of you have different political affiliations – red, blue, or other. Given the current divisive and toxic state of national politics, engaging in political discussions outside water skiing only highlights our differences that are irrelevant on the dock. I restrict non-waterski politics on BallOfSpray to protect the unity of water skiing from unnecessary divisions.

Regarding safesport and similar organizations – it seems that almost every sport is grappling with similar challenges. While it's frustrating, we must acknowledge that it's the reality we live in. Blaming USAWS for safesport overlooks the fact that nobody wanted safesport, and USAWS was compelled to adopt it.

[buechsr]

1 hour ago, Horton said:

My concern is as follows:

BallOfSpray and water skiing, in general, need as many participants as possible. I want to avoid any conflicts among you for reasons unrelated to skiing. I've noticed that some of you have different political affiliations – red, blue, or other. Given the current divisive and toxic state of national politics, engaging in political discussions outside water skiing only highlights our differences that are irrelevant on the dock. I restrict non-waterski politics on BallOfSpray to protect the unity of water skiing from unnecessary divisions.

Regarding safesport and similar organizations – it seems that almost every sport is grappling with similar challenges. While it's frustrating, we must acknowledge that it's the reality we live in. Blaming USAWS for safesport overlooks the fact that nobody wanted safesport, and USAWS was compelled to adopt it.

Couldn't agree more.  Hence it's such a shame that anyone would pick this hill, when there was not an alternative.  

[ski6jones]

3 hours ago, buechsr said:

there was not an alternative.  

There is always an alternative. 

[Horton]

@ski6jones

I don't think any of us were in the room when the decision was made. Are you aware of a viable alternative?

[ski6jones]

@Horton Pretty sure that horse has already been beaten to death.  Many alternatives were mentioned in previous threads.  Whether viable or not depends on what you want the outcome to be.  Does viable mean exactly what we have now? If so then the correct alternative was chosen.

[Horton]

@ski6jones I was asking was if there was a practical viable alternative?  Of course, there are many courses of action that can be proposed by people sitting by in their keyboards, but most of them are likely impractical.

[RAWSki]

The new Exec Dir of USAWS said in a recent interview.  "It's not going away" it is what it is.  I think of SS like having to go to the DMV every few years to renew my license . 

Annoying for sure but after an hour of stupidity it's over and done. 

[MISkier]

SS training is nothing compared to all the HR training and security training I have to do every year for my employer and for the client to whom I am assigned on contract (yes, I have to complete training in basically the same subjects twice).

[The_MS]

What should have happened was there should have been a reasonable approach to the roll out of the program. Minimize the amount of people in the organization that need to perform training or the SS duties. Limit it to any team activity, coaches, Dr, elite athletes and offer volunteer training to parents that think they may need some help in spotting a perv. Separate the elites from the backyard enthusiast that support the organization.

What should have been done was multiple governing bodies from multiple sports similar to waterskiing should have joined together in a class action against the BS legislation imposed by the people you and I voted for. 
What can be done? We can all contact our legislators. Until the cash flow from Govt dries up, they will impose upon us what ever they can to keep the money flowing to all the cronies. 

[Horton]

@The_MS yea maybe but for now it is what it is. Beating a dead horse and/or refusing to invest an hour of your time for the class is not helping anyone.  

[The_MS]

@Horton it ain’t about the hour of time.. Sitting on the sidelines has saved me thousands and has improved my skiing.  I am old, the big dawgs are done, nationals suck, the organization got stale and went woke. I can wake up every day and wait for the best water to ski on. I dont need to commit a bunch of money to prove to myself that I can still get down 39 a bit. 

[markn]

@The_MSare we twins??

[The_MS]

@marknyour warm season is a few weeks longet😎

[Horton]

@The_MS how is your geriatric reality pertinent to this thread?

[The_MS]

@Horton It is why I gave  up USAWS 

[ski6jones]

There are alot of people that don't like the government sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.  This is a perfect example.of that.  Seriously?  No bigger problems to solve?

[sunperch]

@ski6jones  Problems like in illegal immigration, inflation, energy independence, etc.......???