escmanaze

@vtmecheng You are probably right that most of them don't have great form. Also, the overwhelming majority don't care. If the body is horizontal and the spray is big - mission accomplished. You mentioning user strength is cool. That was the number one reason I don't own my Vice-C anymore. Awesome ski - I'm just not strong enough to get it across the wakes quickly. If I was free-skiing all the time, that ski would be my favorite because I would only care about the turns, and it really excelled in the turns. But I don't freeski much anymore and I do need to get across the wakes quickly so I opted back to the senate that helps me get across faster even if it doesn't turn as well. So in my world, the Vice-C was the better freeskiing ski and the senate is the better course ski - completely 180 degrees from prevailing narratives out there. And why? Because I'm not very strong.

Well if I've made @Horton bang his head on his desk in despair, then I'm going to take that as my sign that I'm definitely on to something. :) :D ;) The paper was not aimed at HO or any factory specifically. It seems safe to say that the terms are defined this way by the industry as a whole and I wouldn't try to credit that to any single manufacturer or any single entity. It's all of us together.

@GZ22 I think that might be part of the position paper. Certainly a lot of possibilities exist these days that didn't before. So if we are to get or keep people skiing, it would seem very important to make sure they are riding the best ski possible for whatever their purposes are. Hence - good ski recommendations are really important. Here in Utah, we actually have what I would consider to be a really healthy ski scene. Local pro shop always has a big wide selection of skis and moves through them as well. There's always room for improvement, but it is encouraging that I'll bet their wakeboards sold numbers don't crazy outpace their skis sold numbers.

I must be missing something here. Can somebody explain why they would recommend, for example, a senate graphite instead of a lyric graphite TO A WOMAN? The lyric was made for women and the OP is a woman. If she's looking for graphite level ski - why senate instead of Lyric? lithium or pro-build; ok, those aren't available in the lyric so that's obvious. To me, @quinne seems like an absolutely prototypical perfect candidate for a lyric, either graphite or alloy. That opinion seems to be in the deep minority here. I would love to understand better the perspective. @brooks Am I missing something here? I'm honestly seeking to understand - not to argue.

Oooohhhhh. Ok, I get it. They just pick a super hard pass and get as many buoys as they can. They can try as many times as they want within a 6 minute window. OK, so let me propose a new format. This is what I thought I was going to be watching. Start with the ZBS chart. https://www.usawaterski.org/pages/divisions/3event/ZBSCheatSheet.htm Cut the 6.5 minutes down to just 5 minutes. Now send a guy out to ski. Let's say a guy who is a good skier in really good shape could choose to run 32 off passes. We know these passes are total cake for most the guys in this video. So if they are running 32 off passes, and the boat is spinning around the islands at each end and they just keep running them successfully for 5 minutes straight, then let's say that they would total like 8 times through in that 5 minute span. So then you take a 32 off pass at 36 mph being worth 96 points from the ZBS chart and this skier would earn 96 points times 8 times completing it successfully and his point total would be 768 points. This would kind of put an aspect of endurance and consistency into the competition instead of just peak performance for 20 second intervals only. This is cool too though.

So...when I first read the description, I expect to see something. But then I watch the video and it totally wasn't what I expected. Hmmm...What am I missing? I gotta figure this out.

@Hallpass I suppose you have a very different lived experience out there on the delta than what I see here in Utah and Idaho. A quick google search brings up very prototypical examples of what is all over Utah and Idaho. -V drive boat, because the boat spends most the time surfing and tubing. - Fairly fast speeds to try to get the wake smaller in the big old barge. - Small skinny skis. Marine Products is well known for getting people on small skis - probably because they know their customer base very well. - It's all about the turns. Big spray, horizontal bodies, tight turns characterize the goal for tons of them. - Wake crossings mean nothing. Whatever it takes to get up and over that thing. You do what you gotta do man. - Runs don't last very long. Certainly not miles like you mention. More than 7 turns, but probably not too much more than triple that. If they're skiing aggressively, they will crash a couple times and they will repeat probably about 3 times. I also see a little bit of what you're talking about, but I see a LOT more of what is represented in these videos. When these guys are at Marine Products shopping for a ski, they are saying that they want a ski that will give them the lowest (most horizontal, or laying down) turns possible. Naturally, the sales guy goes to the shape of a Vapor, Alpha, or GT-R, and probably isn't wrong to do so, as certainly, those will always be the shape that will "grip the turn" the best.

Much similar to the experience you had of trying both in 99 and liking the nautique better, I think if you tried both right now, you would like the mastercraft better. Not by such a wide margin probably, but that would still be the result. My experience between the two has been more similar to that of @Wish than @ScottScott. I have a 97 SNOB bubble back. I love it BTW. My time behind the prostar was at 28 mph and 30 mph at 15 off a few years ago when I wasn't skiing as well as I am now. It was a super smooth transition and I thought if anything, that maybe the prostar might have a tiny advantage on my boat. The 200 was a different story. Especially the first time behind it, I didn't ski well at all. To be fair it was on a different lake than my home court, but overall, I didn't ski very well and I really did feel like the wake had something to do with it. Since then I've skied that 200 quite a bit and I've gotten much better behind it, and for a while had tied my practice PB behind it even - but that was now at 34 mph, not back at the slower speeds. Haven't skied a prostar since - so I'm still operating off that one time 4 years ago. But here's the trick. Your 30-40k budget is much more likely to land you a 200 since those came out in 2010 and the prostar didn't come out until 2014. Obviously, you'll ideally want to try both, just like last time. I think you'll agree the prostar is the better wake overall for all kinds of non-shortliners. Maybe those tests will be what is needed to cajole you into raising that budget by the necessary amount. Good Luck. Happy Hunting.

@megsi99 In case you aren't aware who commented above, here you go. https://radarskis.com/team/chris-rossi If Rossi says Senate, then shoot, you won't catch me arguing with him. Maybe I was a little off thinking Katana in the first place apparently? If he's offering a PM, I would PM him and see where it goes.

I don't have a clear read on this EVO, but here is a women's evo they have in a 65". I wanna say the evo is kind of like halfway between a katana and a union? But I'm not real sure if that's true. Sometimes HO makes their marketing a little harder to understand. https://www.wakehouse.com/products/ho-womens-evo-water-ski-w-freemax-rtp-2019.html

https://www.wakehouse.com/products/radar-womens-union-waterski-w-double-prime-2019.html Here is a 65 women's union that they have somewhere at one of their stores. I wonder if they have a way of transferring from one store to another? It's a double boot but that's not terrible. If you don't like it you can probably sell the back boot for more than the cost of an rtp. Call them on the phone and they might even swap it for you before shipping it.

Wakehouse is action right? Not sure what he's trying to charge you for a senate alloy, but it looks like at least one of their shops somewhere has this lyric from last year on a great sale. Again, I would still rather see you on a Union, but this sale price ($400 with prime and rtp) and immediate availability is certainly tempting. https://www.wakehouse.com/products/radar-lyric-womens-water-ski-w-prime-rtp-2018.html

@megsi99 Totally honestly, yes. Typically your level of skiing doesn't get matched up with a Senate. To be fair, however, the Senate will probably feel the most like your ski you are on right now. And your brother will really like it!! It won't be the worst thing in the world. It's still a great ski. I ski a Senate Lithium and love it. Maybe if you did get a senate, that might be an excuse to get a 67 instead of 65. If you are going to keep going as fast as you are in that video, those seem more like Senate speeds than they do like Katana speeds. Shoot, if you're going to go for a senate shape - I would rather see you get a lyric with the softer flex - and it would save money. It may be the best fit for you that they have in stock, but I wouldn't call it the best fit for you. You would probably still really like it. Maybe they could order a women's union for you? Maybe you look to the HO EVO? Maybe you look to the Connelly aspect? If you really want to buy from them and you really want to buy right now, then it sounds like the options are limited. Like @aupatking says maybe they have some good demo stuff for you to try a few or something. I definitely agree that you want to make sure that the guy there sets it up correctly. If and when you buy, try to make sure to be getting your help from their most knowledgeable waterski guy and not just some surfer dude. This is kind of a tough one right?

One more thing: I would expect that all the skis considered so far are going to feel really significantly different than that old Jobe. In the long run, that's a really good thing. In the short run you might feel uncomfortable and have buyer's remorse. I know when I went to my senate in 2012 from an old 99 KD6500, I really had some question marks the first few rides. For me I think it was after about 3 rides that I started to figure out how this new ski wanted me to behave. So make sure to give the new ski 10, maybe even 20 sets just to get used to it because it's going to feel really different.

How fast are you going in those videos? 28-30 mph? Seems a bit fast at your current skill level. I mean, it's FREE skiing, so you can go however fast you want. Just make sure you try some different speeds and go a certain speed on purpose - not just cause that's where your dad happens to put the throttle. So with that being said, here goes. If it were just you, I would think you might enjoy slowing down to something more like 24-26 mph and ride a Katana, probably a 65", maybe 67" with a prime front boot and a prime rear or an rtp according to your preference. If you have no preference I would recommend rtp. However, with your brother in mind, maybe we compromise up a little bit and move up from Katana to Union. Again, hard to decide 65 or 67 - probably dependent on the answer to the speed question above as well as dependent on exact weights of both of you, which I won't ask here. At this point, maybe we even go up to a vector boot instead of prime. I would still get the women's version though, which is available in union, but not in Katana. He can deal with a little softer flex, especially with the rollers you're hitting occasionally. And you can typically find the women's versions for less money too. And then while youguys share that ski, tell him to save his money and eventually buy his own 67" senate. If you keep improving, you'll probably eventually like it more and you can use his or get your own lyric. P.S. Looks like an awesome lake setup youguys have there and a sweet classic mastercraft. Keep lovin it and havin fun. Looks awesome.

Video would be very helpful for giving recommendations. Otherwise, based on what you've provided so far, I would agree with @ballsohard and suggest you start your search in the range of a katana or a union.

Couple of things. 1. Post video of you skiing. The recommendations here will then be WAY better. Also, as and added bonus, if you can find any, post video of what you want to look like so we can see both where you are and where you want to be. 2. That's very nice of you to share with your brother...but...be careful. Hopefully he's close to your size and close to your ability. If so, sharing is great. But if he's significantly different from you in size or ability, then he should really really just start saving up for his own ski. I would hate to see you buy a ski that fits him better than you and they you're sad. After all that, based on the limited amount that I hear so far, I would say start your search with a 65" Radar Union or, if looking used, Radar Theory. Bindings you could go prime or vector, double boot or rtp - totally preference there. You can definitely check out other brands as well and stuff, but that's where I would begin.

To me it's fairly obvious that the #1 thing that would make your skiing better skiing is going across the wakes faster and in a more stacked position. However, if you've only been slaloming for a year, then that may very well not even be a realistic expectation. You might still be in the beginner mode of skiing where you just don't have the balance and stability on a ski to do something that sounds so crazy. So then my main reply would be "just keep skiing man". I totally understand that the wake is kind of a scary thing right now, and if you're not ready to hit it going 40 mph just yet, that's cool. Just keep skiing. Keep enjoying the skiing. Keep pushing yourself just a little harder each day to be a little less scared of the wake and to attack it a little more aggressively each time you go out. Soon enough you'll look up and feel so stable on your ski that you aren't 1 lick scared of the wake and you're attacking it with all the vengeance you've got. Then that's the point where you'll start really working on getting stacked up etc. so that you can get across it even faster than you previously could. Back in my day, before wakeboarding existed all we had was a ski and we hardly even knew what a course was cause we "was" just some country folk from Idaho Falls cowboy startin off the floating docks of Ririe reservoir because otherwise the 90 HP motor on the 16 foot tri-hull '76 Reinell might take 2 full to minutes to get us out of the water and up to speed. Yeah, back in those good ol days, you knew somebody was a good skier if they could dock start, throw a big spray, and then "jump the wake." Shoot man, I'm pretty sure that from ages 10-16 my number one goal in waterskiing was to jump the wake. Maybe that taught me some bad habits, but it also took a young timid skier who wasn't very stable and after thousands of wake crossings getting air across the whole thing, at least one thing was for sure - I wasn't scared of that stupid wake anymore. I knew that it couldn't throw anything at me that was make me going to crash because I had hit that dang thing so hard and so fast so many times that it just couldn't phase me anymore. So actually I believe that was a good first step. With the fear totally gone, now I could focus on proper body position etc. If you actually stack up properly, you are FLYING across the wakes. There is no room for even an ounce of fear or instability at that point. So really, I think that your next step could easily just be to just keep skiing and getting more and more comfortable and stable and less and less scared of the wake.

@quinne I love to hear it. Whether you like this particular response or not, I think you will really like the wakes that the response has to offer in comparison to your SS. In fact, just like you mention being able to run 30 on your sunsetter and not being able to run 30 on the Dixie, I really think that with a small amount of time getting used to the response, you will find a very similar step up. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if very shortly after upgrading from an SS to a response, you find yourself one full speed better on the response and are skiing 32 on it. Some guys on here will kill me for saying that, but I've found that most of the guys who disagree are deep shortliners with perfect form and are probably pretty heavy. They don't relate to lighter lesser skiers with less than perfect form who truly are able to ski significantly better as the wake gets smaller.

Pictures make it look like your daughter is a bit more advanced than your son? Based on the limited info in the pics, if I had to buy one ski for both of them right now I would probably go for a 65" TRA. You're likely to find it packaged and/or priced better with a small prime or vector front boot and a basic RTP. I personally would call that just fine and go for it. Big range, and once their feet are too big for that, it's time for them to have their own ski anyway. @Bruce_Butterfield is a well respected source around here on kids stuff. Bruce, why do you recommend a Wiley's? I can't imagine not having my wonderful lace-up modern bindings.

I tried a few since 2012 and ended up finding my "trusted friend" in my 2018 senate lithium. With the profile bindings I'm into it like 1300 or so, but I think I'll stick with it a couple years and that will help amortize the costs for a little while. I suppose that limit can move based on just how much you love riding on the darn thing right?

Getting a freeride as a replacement for a combo is a total no-brainer. The next step up might be a tougher decision but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. If you get there, though, you should still be able to sell the freeride for a decent price if she ever decides to move up.

Let me state this a little differently just from my own personal perspective. I LOVE waterskiing. If all I ever had access to was my boat, I would continue to love waterskiing way more than boarding, skating, or surfing. However, if I could only ever ride behind a v-drive, I guarantee you I would spend way more of my time boarding, skating, and surfing and I would spend very little time skiing. Is it because they are more fun? No. It's because a v-drive wake sucks the fun right out of waterskiing. If you only buy your kid cleats is he going to like basketball or football more? Duh. Football.

https://instagram.com/p/B0eM_t1gE6f-t6lmbwI3QOcthKZOzg4kScz86w0/ 74 year old

I couldn't possibly disagree more with @Canuckskier. My whole extended family from old to young skis way more than they do anything else behind the boat - and it isn't because they haven't tried the other stuff. I can just as easily argue that his kids chose not to ski BECAUSE they had to do it behind a v-drive. I suppose the world will never truly know, but as for me, I'm going to give my kids the best skiing experience possible, and then if they don't like skiing, at least I can rest easy knowing I at least gave it all I had. Personal bests in my family have been set by folks ages 74, 38, 22, 18 (two of them), and 10 just this summer. All behind an open bow tiny wake ski boat that makes skiing an absolute joy. Below is the 10 year old. And 38 year old See how my ski just takes one little skip over that wake? The last thing in the world I would ever want is a tow point farther back. On these good ski boats, the wakes turn into darn near nothing as you shorten up the rope. My 18yo nephew commented just the other day as he moved from longline to 15 off at 26 mph how much better the wake was and how awesome it was that it was skinnier instead of wider.