escmanaze

"Part of what started me thinking about his is that every time a new ski/boat/glove/rope/cost comes out everyone carps endlessly about the new cost. I say if the price of the new crap is out of your budget don't get it but shut up and enjoy the stuff you have." Yes @Horton. This!!! I also snowmobile. In the snowmobiling world we have been privileged in the last 3 months to see the manufacturers develop for us probably the best youth snowmobile in a long time with the first ever (in the snowmobile world) single cylinder EFI engine as well as the first ever stock factory 2 stroke turbo. Incredible Innovations!!! But what do you know. Here come all the broke jokers out of the woodwork. All they want to do is bag on the kids sled that costs $8.5k because they could never afford it. All they want to do is bag on the stock sled that costs $18k because they could never afford it. It just wreaks of jealousy, envy, and sour grapes. I see the same thing here, but to a much lesser extent, which is good. In the same few months, I've also had Dave Ramsey preaching to me a lot about the word "contentment". I really think that contentment and gratitude are at the heart of where we all need to strive to be. We need to count our blessing that we get to ski at all, whether we are on a 40 year old outboard and a $50 ski off craigslist on a public reservoir or whether we are in a 3 million dollar house on a pristine private lake with a 6 figure boat and a $3k ski. The key is to find the joy that skiing can bring you at whatever level you can afford it and just be grateful and enjoy the ride, and maybe just as importantly, the time spent with our fellow humans each time we go out and ski. That's one of the best parts about skiing is that you can't do it alone. You HAVE to be making a friend while you are skiing, whether you like it or not, which is good for many of us techy guys who would otherwise be hermits if left to our own devices. Alright, I'll get off my soapbox now. Overall I think you're really on the right path though.

Goodness gracious what is going on lately with our industry? We're losing so many of the giants of our industry. So sad.

Bump for a friend.

Rad video. Kinda funny to see those Nautiques with their biminis up at night time.

Ha ha ha!!!! @jcamp let's look at this. What I wrote: "Tend to believe more" What you took away: "completely disregard" and "not believe any" Come on man.

So I'm just a nobody who skis on a mud pond in Utah a few times a year and doesn't know any famous waterskiers so I typically would have no reason to believe either side of this polarizing issue. But when the Washington Post runs an article, I always tend to believe more the other side - whoever it is they are trying to slander. Looks like this time, that is Nate.

Well here's to hoping the boat path shown here isn't indicative of a lack of tracking. Um...dude...you're driving for the video. Can you please just get off your phone for like 16.08 seconds while we get this shoot done?

Me me me a million times me!!! Some guys let me try their the other day and it was totally awesome. This seems kind of like the onewheel but for water. So awesome. Oddly enough, the same guy was having a foil built to be able to pump indefinitely like @ski6jones describes. Holy cow that must make you tired quick though. I think I'll take the motor. With that being said, I can't even afford $2k for a one wheel so I certainly can't afford $13k for one of these.

@Horton I totally get that too. I'm right there with you. Totally not interested in even debating it or anything. I'm just trying to remind everybody to still be nice to somebody who has done a lot of positive things for the waterskiing community.

Hey Everybody, I'm one of the folks who knows Chipman on a personal level. He and I have chatted about this exact issue even. I'm not trying to be his personal lawyer on here or anything like that, but thought I might just remind everybody that there are always two sides to every story, and the reminder that there is a human on the other side of this who probably can still read most of this, so please be careful about unkind things you might throw his way. Also a reminder that he is and has been a very valuable member of the waterskiing community for a long time and has done a lot of things to encourage and grow the sport and get and keep people involved in slalom skiing. Again, I'm not saying Horton is wrong to terminate the account or anything - no way I could possibly know enough to say something like that, I'm just saying, remember to be nice to a guy who is one of us after all. And on that topic, he asked me to post his ski for sale on here a while back and I totally forgot and now I totally feel like a horses patoot. http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Slalom&postid=53376

Ah so we are back on this then huh? The horse ain't dead yet!!! Keep beating it!!! But sir, there's literally nothing but bones left?

@Such_a_brett That would be bonkers for you to build something like this close to silicon slopes. I have to assume, though, that the closest you could possibly get would be right around Cedar Fort though right?

@owennibley Ha ha ha!!! I told you I should have been giving you $20!!! You wouldn't let me!! That's it, I'm totally sneaking another 10 into your pocket next time I see you up there!! I do get what you're saying about Lake Powell being all about a lot more than just good water. Lake Powell, especially for the kids, is the "whole experience" of the thing. It sounds like you and I see "owning a boat" very differently. To me it literally is just a tool to get me to flat water with a course on it and everything else falls into the expense category. It sounds like you maybe find some joy in the little tasks associated with "going boating" and if that's the case - shoot, good for you. I'm actually a little jealous of that. I think that's why something like this would work out really well for me. And that's probably the same reason why it wouldn't work out so well for you. I get that too.

@bradenday I'll give you my best sales pitch here. Shoot, apparently @Such_a_brett is going to need to start throwing some commissions my way here pretty soon. 1. If you are going more than once a week on a new wakesetter, $7k per year is likely not fully enough and you have probably left out some costs in there. 2. If I lived at a place like this, I can't imagine that Lake Powell and Bear Lake would have much draw left for me. Bear Lake is just lame in the first place, that place was never all that attractive. Lake Powell, though, for me was heaven as a kid, and I still think there is something valuable for the kids there. But for me personally, I would MUCH prefer to just ski 5 days in a row at Utah Lake on the perfect glass that I get there instead of go and fight the wind, the tubers, the gigantic storms, the poop dock, the 6 hour drive, the quagga mussels, and the flat tire on the way down there just so that I can try to wake up at 5:30 am after sleeping on some ghetto little camping pad in a sleeping bag to get an hour or two worth of decent water in the morning before normal people wake up. And if you really want to go, you find which of your kids have friends with boats. Then you work out a deal with them where their family comes as your guests to your "country club" throughout the summer and then they invite your family to Powell when they go. 3. Your hectic family schedule is why it is SOO much easier for you to schedule your family on a couple sessions out the back door with whatever kids happen to be available at the time than it is for you to look for that time that's just right, pack up the whole family, drive out to the lake, drive back, wipe down the boat, unload all the stuff. I think a hectic family schedule is an argument FOR this model, not against it. 4. Getting blown off on Friday. Wind apps are getting pretty good, and getting blown off is a much smaller problem on small private lakes like this than it is on big public lakes. The type of wind needed to "blow you off" this lake will be EASILY predictable by even basic weather apps 24-48 hours in advance. It does beg the question for @Such_a_brett though: What would the cancellation policy look like? A few different ways you could go there each with its own set of ups and downs. 5. Schedule is packed on saturday: I think most the comments on here about demand far outpacing the supply will prove to be completely overblown. Remember how hectic your schedule is? Everybody else is just like you. With that being said, certainly Saturdays will be the most crowded, but honestly, outside of private lakes, are there really even any lakes in Utah worth going to on a Saturday? I'll take my chances on a crowded Saturday schedule at this private lake any day over a crowded public lake on a saturday. I'm sure you aren't just like me, so probably at least some of these won't apply to you. But again, for me, it's a no-brainer, except for that whole living in Logan part.

Oh yeah, and for all the talk on here about "crossover boats" and we all wish we could just own two boats...guess what. Live on the ski lake, but then whenever you want, ride the onewheel over to the wake lake and get your surf on whenever you feel like.

@owennibley shoot man you are crazy if you think I'm going to be the one raining on your parade. If you haven't already thought of more ways than that, that your boat costs you money, I'm not about to be that jerk who points out just how high-maintenance your girlfriend is. If you're in love, my job is to just . You do at least have to be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge that you're comparing apples with oranges. A 92 prostar on willard bay on one hand. A brand new prostar on a perfectly shaped private lake right out your back door, every aspect of which is somebody else's problem on the other hand. Comparing those two user experiences is certainly comparing apples to oranges.

It's funny. We all seem to live in denial about what our boat actually costs us. I suppose if we were actually honest with ourselves about the cost, we maybe probably wouldn't own it.

Lights...YES!!! I think a lot of tiny waterski communities aren't the right place for lights. But this one - especially the wake lake, seems like the perfect kind of place where the lights could really add to the environment. July and Early August, I think a ton of people would love to be out surfing until 9:30 or 10:00 at night. Maybe even until 11:00 on Indy Day and Pioneer Day as everybody will be kept awake by the fireworks anyway.

So on the business model being a winner - I do still have one question left. I understand a home owner paying a little premium for being on the lake and paying a higher HOA for being on the lake. However - I'm a little worried about your condos/apartments. Even if they were condos, I could see people paying more for them because of the lake and the amenities. I've witnessed it first hand living at Ivory Ridge in Lehi. However, with them being just apartments that folks just rent with no possibility of owning, is there still a chance that people will pay more each month in rent in order to get what they are getting? Maybe this is just part of the next generation below me and I just don't get it. It seems like there are lots of these types of folks in SLC, but even Ogden and Provo don't seem to have a ton of them, let alone Logan. I certainly don't want to tell you this market doesn't exist, because I'm frankly not really in tune with the folks who would constitute it, but I'm having a hard time imagining a ton of them up in Logan. It probably exists and I'm just oblivious, but in the spirit of you "defending your ideas" here on the forum, I would love to hear what you may know about this target demo.

Also, one more thing: Especially with your slalom lake going in there, I think you can expect to have folks like me showing up who own drysuits and really want/expect to use them. So I want to go ski on March 10th or November 1st, but it obviously isn't reasonable at all to expect the charter company to be sitting out there waiting for me. Maybe you could build in some contingency plan for the 2%-5% of folks who are really hardcore that they can go through an EXTENSIVE training and qualification plan to be able to list themselves in the app as the driver once the temps average less than 80 degrees or so. At that rate maybe they could even drive for a couple neighbors as well or something. And speaking of rough Logan winters impeding on our skiing , let's try to make lemons out of lemonade. Maybe take at least the shoreline, or even the whole lake if the ice is thick enough and run a snowmobile over it with the little groomer attachment behind it so that people can go out and do cross country skiing and fat tire snowbiking on the "public lands" when they are frozen over. https://www.snowgroomers.net/path-master/

I love it!! Actually I sat down last night and started drawing up something a lot like this with one big wake lake over there to the left just like you show it here. I just wasn't seeing much value in the concept of having it in a V shape. If I was up in Logan, I would totally be right on your list of folks wanting to buy the lot toward the bottom left of the waterski lake. Unfortunately, I'm down in Salt Lake County. That's still my main concern - just not enough folks like me up in Cache. But I suppose it really only takes a few to fill a place like this. And I do see value in the model of keeping it a small premium on the lot and then having folks pay for the boat as they go. I really think that's a winning model for a lot of people...once they take some time and think about it. Here's to wishing I lived in Logan. Keep up the good work. I really think you're on to something really good here.

Maybe something like this? It puts just a big blog triangle in the middle. You could go with or without the little triangle park in the middle. Certainly for tubing it would be better off without it. All your big buildings and stuff could be on the top left - so that they are "waterfront" you could change the SUP lake to just have little fingers that weave in and out of some properties up there or something. Speaking of which, if you are going as deep as you say and running as smooth of a shoreline as you say, then what about running a border of some type around the edge of the big lake and the SUPs, Kayaks, canoes are allowed in the shallow part of the big lake? Again, you could check out Jensen Grove for a model of this concept. Then you could connect the tiny SUP lake with the big lake if you wanted as well. Maybe that triangle in the big lake - if it exists could have a big huge tall condo building as the centerpiece? A little bridge to get you over there? Just an idea - probably crazy. This also puts the waterskiers off on the extreme edge of the property where they want to be - away from everybody. also, a 2,000 foot slalom lake is ok and doable, but 2,300 like stillwater is even way better. All my ideas are eating up your usable square footage to sell with water that you can't sell. Sorry.

@Such_a_brett Even though I hang on BOS endlessly, somehow, I missed the whole first half of this thread. I have now read the whole thing. Wow. Lots. I feel like I'm fairly qualified to speak on the topic. I grew up in Farmington as a typical stern drive recreational skier but have since become much more of a buoy chaser in the last 7 years now down in Draper doing all my skiing at Utah Lake. Most of my old friends, though, are still very much the recreational folks that are exactly your target market. Here are a few thoughts on the topic of your proposals. 1. Judging by the posts, this last summer seems to have maybe fixed your attitude, but especially on all the posts last winter, I really think you are really underestimating the demand and popularity for surfing and I think you are really overestimating the demand and popularity for wakeboarding. I really think your big recreational lake will get 5 surfers for every boarder, and no, it's not a fad. those numbers won't suddenly reverse back. Whether you get it or not, whether you like it or not, surfing is here to stay. It is exactly what most people want out of their boating these days. It's not just something to do when the water gets bad. 2. 10 feet is absolutely deep enough for 95% of surfers who won't know any better. Yes, 20 feet is definitely better and the wave will be better. But very few parts of Utah Lake are deeper than 10 feet and yet surfing is 90% of what goes on out there. Deeper is better, but if I'm marketing to the masses, and not to the extreme folks, and all I can get is 10 feet, I wouldn't let that stop me. I see your new version is 15 feet. Sweet. Even better. 3. You are here on BallofSpray. This is where you find guys who tell you they adjusted their fin two thousandths of an inch and the ski feels like a whole new ski!!!! Speaking of extreme folks, this is definitely where you find them. So it's certainly wise for you to come here and put your ideas out there and see if you can still defend them, but definitely keep in mind that most of the folks on here live in a completely different world and have no clue what the average recreational utah family skier group looks like. @Than_Bogan talks about the people who are different than him, and he's smart to point it out. Definitely, your target market here in Utah is VERY different than Than in relation to what they are looking for with their lake time. Living here, and having been, in the past, part of your target demographic, I think you have a heck of an idea on your hands that is aimed directly at the right people. Except being in Logan. You are certainly putting more faith in the Logan market than I would want to, but I'm probably not nearly as familiar with cache valley as you are. 4. I like your new design LOTS more than the old one. Partially because it has a comp ski lake on it. I do still think you have a turnaround problem on your hands. Big boats want big lakes. It might be worth your time to take a big wake boat and set up your own little course somewhere and see if you can surf through it or if you can wakeboard through it. Then see if beginners can surf or wakeboard through it. It really needs to be easy enough for beginners. You could validate your design easily enough by setting up some stuff out on Willard Bay or something. 5. I love having a tiny non-powered lake nearby. Seemed like a shame to set a full size wake apart for a few days. This is way better to have the SUP folks on a different lake altogether. 6. I wonder if you couldn't find some way to turn your upside down v shape into more of a triangle kind of shape. This could help with the turnaround problems and you could possibly develop some kind of rotational pattern for potentially two boats at a time. Go to Blackfoot and visit Jensen Grove Reservoir on the 4th of July and watch them all go around and around in a counterclockwise pattern with like 12 boats on 55 acres. I really suspect you will be happier if your wake lake isn't shaped long and skinny like a ski lake. Wider and fatter more like a blob seems to be the way to go for average joe's doing a wake thing. From the sounds of it, I would gather that you are primarily a wakeboarder of intermediate to advanced level. Long and skinny would work fine for you. But surfers and beginners don't want long and skinny...I think. Good Luck. It could turn out really cool. I look forward to hearing more about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong Mark, but I think a Michigan fan is going to be really disappointed to find out that the "yellow" is actually quite green. As I understand it, this is much more of a "Seahawks" boat than a Wolverine boat. I actually think the color scheme is really pretty.

And I'll just pre-empt all the guys who are going to come and say that we have to teach them to cut through the wakes and not to jump them. Great. Go on. Blah blah blah. I'm pretty sure if there ever was a tiny skier able to do it right, this kid was it, and look at the air he is catching. Sorry, physics is still undefeated. When the wake is a certain size and the kid is a certain size, it just ain't happening.