Is skiing dying?

[MrJones]

I agree about bringing the fun back into it. In truth, I think that slalom specialization has hurt the sport overall. (Yes, difficult words for a slalom fag to speak). 20 years ago when I started most of the tournaments were 3 event. I started tournaments at 18 and was really only a slalomer, but I would trick and jump some just for FUN. Picture borrowed jumpers, crashes, entaining for everyone.  

Except for Bennett's there are no 3 event tournaments in La. I fully understand the reasons. When we built our lake the extra cost of dirt work, a ramp, liability, and the fact that I (a non jumper) would have to maintain the thing made the decision easy. Still, I think that 3 event skiing made it more fun. We are mostly so serious about our slalom score now that we forget to just ski and enjoy it. (Guilty as charged on this point as well)

Another thing I have noticed. Back then there were a few of beginner/novice only tournaments in Oklahoma. These were run by the normal AWSA affiliated clubs and the better (Reg/Nats) skiers were there as drivers judges only. I started in these tournaments then joined a club, etc., etc. It seems that maybe the INT league has taken over this area. Hopefully the grassroots concept that AWSA is now pushing will help to bring these skiers into the fold.

Lastly, there are a lot of little skiers out there. JD must have had 8-9 B/G1 at the last Cottonwood tourney. Not many unfamiliar last names, but the kids were there. I hope they stay involved.   

[Old MS Accout]

Nationals and Regionals cost too much. They are not an indication of people out there skiing.

Fly, drive, rent a car, hotel, tourney fee and 1 set.

Why should there be 145 skiers in M3 when about 5% have a chance of winning it.

You should have to win or place in your state, advance to regionals and then to nationals if you place in the region.

Shrink the tourney, shrink the cost and make it a true national champ through advancement.      

[skidawg]

If u shrink the tourney and costs there is no way to make a profit for the host club and governing body! I do however agree on some level it would br more prestigious if you had to earn thru advancement!

[bmiller3536]

I was happy with my first experience at nationals this year, did not ski as well as I would have liked but that is part of it.

There was only one thing that really irratated me, the shirts they gave out to the competitors did not say anything about nationals on it but convienently they were selling shirts that said 68th Goode Nationals for 25-40 a piece.

[MrJones]

Agree on making the tournament more presigious if you have to advance through placement at regionals. The only problem with that is that one of the strengths of our sport is the family nature of it. I would much rather be at a tournament with the kids (where I can ski too) rather than at a soccer field sweating away with all the other parents. Nats is a family vacation for a lot of people. I would think we would have to be very careful in changing the current set up.

This may be off the actual topic, but one thing that was very shortsighted was taking the US Open away from Nats. It was great in the old days to ski, see all the pros hanging out at sponsors booths, and then watch the Open on Sunday! Now there is no more US Open and Nats attendance is way down. Who made that decision? Why not bring it back?

[bmiller3536]

bmiller3536@yahoo.com

[jimbrake]

This doesn't have to do with tournament attendance or the question of "is the sport dying", but it's related to the evolution of the sport and where the good skiers are coming from. My question is how many of you, and especially families, are able to seriously pursue skiing without living on a tournament lake? Used to be in the West that no one (except the Hortons) lived on a lake, but there were a lot of good skiers regardless. Now, lots of families live on tournament lakes and the kids especially have great access. My family doesn't live on a lake. We belong to a club and ski two nights per week (one set each for me and my two boys) and both weekend days unless we are at a tournament. We are having a blast, the boys are improving, but skiing everyday is not possible, skiing multiple sets is usually not possible, and skiing 3 or even 2 events is not likely even though we'd like to do that. I was 3 eventer a long time ago. I know there are lots of others in similar or probably even more restrictive situations, but it seems like there is a shift occurring in the sport where the best competitors, especially the kids, live at their training sites. I'm not calling foul at all, just seeing this and wondering how I'm going to get my kids to the level they want to be at - strong National-level competitors with a shot at skiing for a good college team. That's not my goal, it's theirs. Anyone else seeing similar trends in their regions? If we are evolving to a point where most or all of the serious competitors and best skiers are coming from a live/train setting, then that will become even more daunting for new people to come into the sport. Seems to me we are becoming more and more hidden and exclusive (that is not intended to be read as "country clubish or snobbish". I would love to live on a lake. As a matter of fact, I'd like to belong to my local Country Club as well. Ain't likely to happen.).

[Boody]

Scott, what you just described is the Diablo tournament in Brentwood, Ca. It's a blast, skiing, watching the pros, booths, fun event.

[Than_Bogan]

Actually, jimbrake, I'd say that's very much on topic.  If the sport is not dying (which I contend it isn't), then it's certainly changing.  And making that change work for us is clearly the key to the sport's future health.  If people can't do the sport at the level they want to, that's a problem.  And if there's a perception that people outside "the clique" have no chance, that's maybe an even bigger problem.

That said, I think having to "fight for it" can be a real advantage.  It keeps you hungry and appreciating the skiing time you do get, instead of getting obsessed, then bored, then burnt out.  I didn't get into skiing as a young kid because my dad so was much better than I was and that seemed like "his sport."  It wasn't until I got a lot stronger at around age 16 that I started to realize maybe I could be good at this sport, and soon I passed my dad, and then I went to a ski school and realized that I completely sucked, and THEN I got hungry! /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif  Result: Most fun hobby ever.

What kinda bums me out is that public lake ski sites seem to be really losing out.  Why deal with jetskiers, fisherman, tubers, yahoos, and wallys if you don't have to?  And -- oh, by the way -- you'll probably get better water and better conditions on a custom-built site.

But this subtly comes with a huge downside that I don't know how to address:

A custom built site requires in the neighborhood of 20 acres -- usually a lot more.  While that's not quite on the scale of a typical golf course, that is nevertheless a TON of land in any well-populated area.  And that means that you'll tend to see two things:  1) Ski sites in the middle of no where that aren't convenient for most people, 2) Ski sites that are extremely expensive and/or exclusive.

Public lakes, on the other hand, are all over the place.  So the transition from public lake ski sites to private ones often comes with a serious reduction in accessibility.

[HO 410]

If your kids are internally motivate, you greatly increase the odds that they will want to keep skiing and go out of their way to keep skiing when the get into their teenage years and beyond.

[swc5150]

I'm one of the minions whose skied my entire life, and never entered one sanctioned tournament.  We purchased our own boat, gear and course, and just competed against ourselves.  One observation I have about the popularity of wakeboarding versus skiing is the musical aspect (I would see that being a pro musician).  As annoying as it can be for a quiet day on the dock, wakeboarders pump their own soundtrack into their sets, usually loud gen-X noise that makes them feel like they're performing an extreme sport.  IMO, being slingshot across a wake at 60mph is about as extreme as it gets, we're just missing the "action" music accompanying us.  Like my father used to say, "it ain't extreme if you don't need gloves".  Anyway, my intention is not to denegrate wakeboarding, but rather to point out the generational difference in our sports.  Add loud, banging systems to slalom boats, and promote dudes full of tats running shortline, and kids would take to it instantly - without parental pursuasion.  You all might think I'm crazy, but just think about!  Cheers yo!!

[Than_Bogan]

What are tats?  Assuming that's not a typo, I think my generational gap is too large to even understand what you're talking about! /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif

Personally, it really bothers me to hear music on the water, from any source, and even if it's music I like.  But then again I became an old fogey at about age 11.

[Thomas Wayne]

 

Tats?  Here's a picture of someone with nice tats:

http://www.freakingnews.com/Celebrity-Tattoos-Pictures--648.asp

 

TW

[HO 410]

I hate to generalize, but 20 somethings have other things to do. The reason I am able to keep skiing, at 24, is that I have access to several private sites and at least 1 will accept me as a member. When I've gone to a public lake with friends, the boat has always belonged to a parent or cool rich uncle.

[JDM]

HO 410 is right regarding the younger skiers at least for me relating to tournaments.  As a younger M2 (31) skier it is a bit tough for me to get into tournament skiing with everything going on in my life.  I have a 2 year old daughter (already skiing on a ski trainer!!!!), establishing a carrer, remodling a house, constant weddings and other things going on, means I only get to ski 4 days a week (Thur-Sunday) so it is hard for me to get psyched about even a 2 set tournament where there are travel time considerations (especially where we live on the western slope) travel costs, hassels with traveling with a child, keeping her entertained at the site ect... versus 3 full sets as long as I want and relaxing at our home lake with friends and family.

 I am also blessed to have parents who have a private lake and boat, othewise I wouldn't be into skiing at all, because it is very costly or inconsistent depending on where you live.

  

[Deke]

Jimmy, you make it sound like you're busy or something! Seriously though, you are very lucky to be able to ski 4 days week even if you didn't have all that going on.

[jimbrake]

Hmmm. What is that beneath "Mom and Dad"?

[h2odawg79]

I 2nd the draw of the wakeboard mentality.

*The more the merrier! (everyone is welcome...) -FUN!

*It's rockin' and generally a "Hang Loose" Good time atmosphere where the Laughing and Smiles are infectious... -FUN!

Too many Ski Brains are uptight, elitist's that don't want anyone else messing up their water! -NOT FUN!

Too many skiers are Waaaaaaaaaaaay Too Anal & serious to enjoy the ride. They ONLY have Fun when they ski well and when they don't, their ugly discontent is infectious...  -NOT FUN!

Slalom is very Cool and edgy. But, the younger crowd is Hard pressed to have the opportunity to see it much less get involved for a number of Good reasons. I Totally agree with getting some Tatted Guy's and Gal's with a little edge involved with the Pro tour so the younger crowd could atleast see that it Really is Hardcore and Edgy. This kind of PR work would most certainly change the Face and the Demographic of Slalom...

P.S. I'm not a Boarder...   

[MattP]

Being a college student I really do see the draw for wakeboarding for the younger crowd. I agree with all of h2odawgs points above they really are true about wakeboarders and the skiers. I ski with some guys (on public water) that are uptight and do not want any one messing up their water and are too anal sometimes. but they are great guys dont get me wrong. I take friends out to the lake all the time and i will sit there and teach them to wakeboard/wakeskate getting more of my friends on the water no matter what the sport is always fun for me.( you never know who will find a passion for it as I have). All of my friends that come out have heard about the type of skiing I do and want to see me run the course. When I get done with my set they usually are speechless and think that it is the coolest thing. They always say something about how crazy the cross wake and turn speed are. But then they want to go and wakeboard. I always ask why and I tell them I can teach you to ski like I do. But they think it is to hard to learn and just want to wakeboard. I have yet to figure out what to do to get my friends to want to ski or at least try it. my 2c.

[boarditup]

"...too hard to learn..." and "...is hard for me to get psyched about even a 2 set tournament where there are travel time considerations..."  The entire culture has changed since the heyday of skiing between the 1950's and mid '80's.  It is still a viable sport, but we have to change with the times.  If the young dad above could have a morning tournament set - between 8:00 am and noon - that would work with his schedule and the tolerance of his wife.  Heck, the wife may even get involved.  If the young child had a way to compete (say kneeboard or wakeboard) at the same time, the fun factor would skyrocket and more young families would get involved.  Now, if we have the new blood coming in, lets have a way for them to become officials in a short period of time (say one season, or two if the pace is slower) by using YouTube, self-study, and mentoring, and you have a way to propogate the sport along.

The sport has to become more accessable from a rules and regulations perspective.  Why can't we run multiple events on the same day and same weekend?  Why can't we mix in board sports with slalom and trick skiing?  Why does it take longer to get a Regular Judge than an MBA?  Why don't we have on-line training for all of our officials?

Skiing has already changed to match the culture.  The question is if the organization will adapt, or die out.  Time will tell.  Ask these questions of your rep on the Rules and Scorers and Judges Committee as often as you can so we can preserve the sport for the next generation.

[Old MS Accout]

I have 6 rounds over 3 days the last weekend in Aug. It is full. I have skiers from NE, IA,CO,WI, Canada and Il.

B1/G1 through M6 and W7.

Promote fun tourneys and people will be there.

 

[Than_Bogan]

Well, I have just realized that I am officially Part of the Problem.

I like being an uptight elitist!  I want a sport with clearly measurable results so I know exactly how well I did.  I don't want to listen to music on the water.  I don't want to see anyone's tattoo.  I don't want idiots messing up my water.

That said, I believe there are some reasons that people like me get involved in this sport, and to some extent I think it could be a mistake to target a different audience that may actually not be suitable to slalom.

Consider this:  A round of slalom always ends in failure.  However good you are that day, there's another buoy or another rope length that eludes you.  And if you're a little off, your score directly reflects it.

It's hard for me to see how this fits with a hang loose/extreme mentality (apologies that my terminology is about 2 generations out of date).

In addition, slalom water skiing has a long learning curve.  For most people, you're talking 100's of hours on the water before you can hope to run a slalom course at any speed.  (There are amazing athletes out there who can cut this to around 5 hours, but those folks are a rare, rare breed.)

This creates a barrier to entry.  Why spend all that time trying to figure out slalom when you could just go tubing and have a blast RIGHT NOW?

But it's also a feature of the sport.  It makes the accomplishments mean something.  If I had just shown up and started running -35 later that day, I wouldn't have NEARLY as much pride and feeling of accomplishment as I did when I ran -35 for the first time at the ripe old age of 31 -- after 26 years of at least some level of involvement in the sport.

Finally, slalom is extremely technical.  Again this is a barrier to entry.  But it's also an opportunity for a certain type of athlete -- one who may lack the best natural athleticism but is willing to work hard and study the sport.

None of this is to say we should just be static -- that would be suicide.  I agree with most of what has been said in this thread.  But I just wanted to recognize that the characteristics of slalom match with a certain audience, and PART of what we should be doing is figuring out how to find that audience.

[HO 410]

The most fun I've had at a tournament was at the day after state tournament where people started betting on a self-handicapped tournament. $20 with a buoy count somewhere close to your average (strangely nobody sandbagged the bids). This put over $200 on the line, got people to ski hard in a round that didn't matter, and made people stay around to see how it shook out. You make tournaments exciting and fun when the score that matters the least is your own.

 

I seriously doubt that the market is saturated, but to some extent I have to wonder if everyone that wants to be skiing is skiing. Several times a year I'll invite a friend out to go ski, but they have a slightly deflated look when they see the site. I've since been linking them to google maps so they know what they're getting into. But even the ones that have a blast wouldn't come out more than a handful of times, even if it cost $5 a set. The way we ski, even the not so serious ones, is a far cry from the recreational activity most envision when you say "waterskiing."

[h2odawg79]

Thanimal, WOW! -That's some welcoming attitude! If I was just an "Idiot" out on the water I would have a Hard time wanting to get involved with  'Tudes like that!

 "and PART of what we should be doing is figuring out how to find that audience". -WHAT???

[boarditup]

"None of this is to say we should just be static...and PART of what we should be doing is figuring out how to find that audience."  Well said!

The key to remember is that our target slalom audience is usually attached to a non-target audience family.  MS said it well - "Promote fun tourneys and the people will be there." 

My perspective is that part of the fun is improvement and involvement that has a reasonable path and outcome.  If you don't see a possible positive outcome in a reasonable period of time (individually defined) then you won't even start.  For example, would you spend $1,000 for an old HO Mach 1?  Not likely.  Why? Because the new Strada is a better ski and may actually improve your scores or make skiing more fun or interesting.  The Rules Committee and the Judges and Scorers Committee has to remember that involvement beyond skiing at a tournament must also be fun, meaningful, and have a reasonable chance for a positive outcome.   Hazing rituals or "that's that way I did it" does not mean it is right for the times.

We have ever improving skis, boats, handles, speed control (flame on), techniques, and lakes.  Lets use the same continuous improvement philosophy in our organization so we fit today's culture and keep the organized sport alive. It is up to skiers to push for changes, improvements, and adaptations from the bottom up.  If you disagree, that is great - we still need to have a sport-wide discussion so people will come up with solutions better than mine.

[h2odawg79]

I just realized, that some people on here only recognize it as "Skiing"  if it is Tournament Skiing and others may only recognize it as Skiing if you are doing it in a Slalom Course...

I'm sorry, I thought the Topic was; "is SKIING dieing" and I was thinking we were ALL talking about Waterskiing in General, like when we say: "WAKEBOARDING" we're Not all talking soley about Wakeboard competitions and competitors...

What is the Skiing "target audience"??? Is it really the uptight elitists? Because there are actually some pretty Cool Pro's out there who don't act like the north bound end of a south bound Donkey! God help us if the face of the  Target audience "Must" look and act like a Jack Ass...

Must we further segregate and reduce the Sport by depicting a certain sterio type to carry our Banner? Couldn't a Boarder become a Skier and a Skier become a Boarder? Isn't the actual Goal here to find ways to preserve and improve the sport? -Not further isolate it? 

[Dirt]

I had not skied a tournament in many years. I had fun skiing with friends at our practice site and on the river. I skied a few tournaments this year and they were a lot of fun. It was great to see all the familiar faces and some new ones. I had not felt or missed the tournament nerves in a long time. If you want to ski tournaments that is great. If you don't want to, that is OK. They are not for everyone. Some people, my wife included, don't like them. You are still supporting the sport by buying skis, boats, ropes, handles, magazines, etc... To each his/her own.

[Horton]

I am not really following this thread. You guys are keeping it friendly..... right?

[Than_Bogan]

Personally, I am mainly talking about slalom water skiing, but obviously anyone is welcome to discuss any aspect of skiing with respect to dying. 

I've never seen anyone in waterskiing act like a jackass -- not even me /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif.  As discussed on the "why do tournaments?" thread, waterskiers are an incredible group of people.  I go out of my way to be friendly to everyone on the lake, even the guy who just ruined my water.  That doesn't mean I'm *happy* about him ruining my water!

h2odawg79, I think you are misinterpretting my comments (or else I yours).  Slalom waterskiing is a uniquely frustrating sport.  It needs to be compatible with you.

Also, slalom is a sport that inherently desires an empty lake.  This aspect of it is anti-social.  For one person to practice, everyone else needs to be NOT practicing.  This is fundamentally a disadvantage to growing a sport, and I don't think it can be ignored when considering plans to prevent the death of slalom water skiing in particular.

Isolation is in no way a goal of anyone here.  But if you're a salesman, you want to try to sell to people who might buy.  This is in ADDITION to just flat improving your product -- I was bringing up an orthogonal issue.  Sorry for any misunderstanding.

This thread contains tons of great ideas, definitely including h2odawg79's ideas.  KEEP IT UP!

[h2odawg79]

My remarks are ALL in the Best interests of SKIING! And I am ALL about Friendly! Nothing from me is meant to be or sound degrading or detrimental to the sport or relationships here on BOS! http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-embarassed.gif 

[Than_Bogan]

Yep, I didn't think otherwise.  And I hope I'm doing the same.  Great discussion here.  Heated at times and easy to misunderstand each other, but still continuing to be very productive in my opinion.

[Horton]

Thank you guys.

[behindpropellers]

So....

 If you were 16 would you hit the course or wakeboard?

 What tournament would you rather sit and watch?

 

[MattP]

im 19 and I would say course. I did the whole wakeboard thing but I never really liked it. I skied way more but I did break out my front teeth wakeboarding. I love releasable bindings so skiing it is for me!

[h2odawg79]

Yes, this is a Great thread with a lot of Great idea's from a lot of Great people.

 We are All individual in our make up and life experiences. WTS, I personally think that the Best thing that we can do is, be very careful Not to ever contribute to an "US and THEM" mentality. The Best thing for the Sport is also the Best thing for us individually and offering a "Come As You Are" invitation to ALL is what will keep this Sport Alive and Thriving. While, never aligning with an "US" or a "THEM"...

I've never heard a WakeBoarder downing the Skiers like 2nd class citizens. BUT, We've ALL Heard or even contributed to defaming the Boarders... As far as Character and integrity goes, We're Better then that. Aren't we? Besides,  we can get All the "Us and Them" we can Handle by Going to most any Church in the U.S. (It don't work there and it won't work for Skiing either!) 

HOPE, FAITH and LOVE and the Greatest of these is LOVE! (Love thy neighbor, the Golden Rule and Karma..)

Peace!http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif 

[jlittle]

Unfortunately sometimes... the Golden Rule = he who has the gold, makes the rules.

[swc5150]

H2O,

You're right, watersports should be all inclusive, but to say that only slalom guys denegrate wakeboarders is false from my experience.  I've gotten shredded by wakeboarders for being a "dinosaur" slalom skier, etc. 

I think the integration of the sports has been difficult simply due to the different mindsets.  Slalom skiers tend to take it very seriously, almost with the feeling of a golfer teeing off - focused.  Wakeboarding is almost like a basketball slam dunk contest - loud, with groups of people partying it up on the sidelines.  It's hard to mesh the two I guess.  Of course there's always this -- 10 people in the boat,1 boarder=party;  2 people in the boat, 1 skier=company. 

[ML]

I think Wakeboarding is like Freestyle Motocross and Slalom is like Hardcore Racers, as a guy that raced for close to 15 years when Frestyle came out I was like what a bunch of Ding Dongs. But those Ding Dongs grew the sport almost over night. Most people cant flip a motorcycle , but they can ride tracks and jump. Boom instant growth. I think the open guys like Rossi, Marcus and others do a great job of trying to promote skiing period. When they talk about it they dont talk about fin settings, body positon or skis they just say get out and feel it. If you ask them of course they will be technical. But the tech stuff isnt what got me into it back in the day when i watched the Coors Light Tour, it just looked cool.

I'm like most on here, when a Wakeboard boat shows up at the lake I role my eyes and think crap they going to destroy my perfect lake. Its part of the world now, I just try and convert any of them I see. I just tell them when thier my age, your body wont let you flip like that. Well maybe after too many barley pops.

 Events like Malibu are where the future is for promotion, the skiing conditions arent that great but you expose so many new people to it. Just like The Coors Light Tour did way back when.

[LeonL]

swc5150,

Good analogy:  Golfer vs. slam dunk contest.

[h2odawg79]

Dinosaur come backs: 

"There are only two types of people on the Lake; Those who can Ski and those who wish they could"!

"Everyone is Born a WakeBoarder, only a chosen few can overcome it"! 

Just Kidding, ALL in Fun!!!http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif

 

[Than_Bogan]

I knew there was an elitist in you somewhere!! /vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif

That second one is pretty classic.

[h2odawg79]

Yes, Guilty as charged! -But I am trying to overcome myself! ( of course, I'm still battling myself when it comes to Pontoon boats pulling Tubers...)

I think I just insulted all Boats by using the words "Pontoon & Boat" together in the same sentence...

[Than_Bogan]

lmao

[Chef23]

I was just at an INT event yesterday and if skiing is dying it was tough to tell by this event. There were 90 pulls over the course of the day and I would say the two biggest fields were Junior Novice and Junior 4th class which are kids that can't run a full pass and kids that can run a full pass with gates up to 28 mph. Plus there were some kids mixed in other division who were better skiers including a 14 year old running 4@32 off and a 15 year old girl who ran 5@28 off in my division (I did manage to squeek out a win over her).

 The format of the INT is great for people just getting into tournament skiing. I saw a 13 year old skiing in his first tournament skiing getting a PB (including skiing at home) of 4@34mph, a 12 year old girl that struggles to run 22 mph at home got 4@26 mph and a couple of girls that we ski with regularly skied better than they do at home.

It was a great event and we brought 7 skiers to the event including 1 first timer, 4 who were skiing their 3rd INT event and we would have had one more first time tournament skier but his back was sore. I know we are going to migrate some of those people to AWSA events this year also.

Most importantly the kids all had a blast cheering each other on and playing with each other on the shore. I will admit I found it cool that the kids I help coach would cheer for me also when I dropped after each pass.

On the way home after my son (11) was talking about the difference between INT and AWSA and how they are both fun but with a different set of people and he likes them both. It was a great day and some excellent quality time with the little guy and friends I have made from the events.

[Than_Bogan]

INT is amazing.  It's scary to think where we might be in AWSA tournaments right now if INT hadn't been around the last few years.  It's really THE source of new blood for AWSA tournaments.

I was at an AWSA tournament a couple of weeks ago, and many of the "regulars" were not there -- some are retired or semi-retired and some were on their way to Nationals.  But the tournament was still packed, and that was due almost entirely to participation in Boys and Girls divisions.  In fact, the only other person in my division (M3) was there mainly to support his kids.

I guess I don't know it for a fact, but I think most of these kids came via INT.

My own kids are just starting to get interested now.  I don't know if they'll have any interest in the tournament style or not.  But if they do, there may be a year or two in here where I do a lot more INT and a lot less AWSA tournaments.  Time will tell!!

Fresh thinking like INT is, in my opinion, one of the big reasons that we AREN'T currently dying as an organized sport.  Some of the other forward-thinking ideas in this thread are part of the reason, too.

[unksskis]

Why not take the initiative and organize some Grassroots tournaments in your area, maybe even add wakeboard (although we know your opinion on that) and it will be an INT, but affiliated with AWSA.  Seems the states where INT is most prevalent, the Grassroots program has not taken off, people won't organize it, or is not even being given the opportunity.

[Than_Bogan]

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting otherwise, but just to state it unequivocally:  I support all recreational activities, most certainly including wakeboarding -- and also fishing, tubing, sailing, rowing, and even jetskiing.  In fact, my club was the ONLY organization to formally support jetskiing when it ended up getting banned from Lake Cochituate quite a few years ago.  My support extends well beyond the water as well -- I want skate parks and anything else that gets people doing something active, fun, and non-destructive.

Unfortunately, these activities each need some space of their own, and slalom water skiing is one of the worst in that regard: it basically needs the entire lake for just one skier!  So that's one disadvantage we have.

Re grassroots: Personally, I have so far found myself placing my priority on my own family's recreational activities rather than taking the effort to organize something larger like a Grassroots tournaments.  And INT seems pretty well established in MA, so I'm not sure it would really add much in this area?

I actually kind of like the idea of INT being its own thing so that it can set whatever rules it feels like setting to increase participation.  In my mind, step 1 is participation and then step 2 (or maybe it's more like step 10) is getting the ones that most enjoy the formal competition aspect into Class C and R tournaments.  I tend to be all for specialization, personally, and I see INT and AWSA as filling different needs, even though they are related.  And while I love the aspect of INT that is a "feeder" for AWSA, I also see it "permanently" serving a slightly different clientelle, which I consider a very good thing.

[unksskis]

Understand and agree.  INT just recently partnered with WWA (World Wakeboard Association).  Our opinions and overall state of skiing aside, USAWS has some serious competition looming in the works, and if the INT is an actual feeder to USAWS, hopefully they continue to have slalom be a major event in their competitions.  I envision INT going the way of being majorly wakeboarding in 5 years, and being the feeder for slalom and USAWS fizzles out.  The thought that they are their own thing, not a big deal, different genre, all are likely true, but are also missed opportunities for USAWS growth in general.  In my mind, if even a portion of INT skiers transitioned to GrassRoots, we would see a greater influx of skiers, helpers, younger skiers and families, etc.

 The WWA and INT partnership is huge in many ways, a major being association fees.  Join one, it takes care of the other.  I do not go to INT, or WWA for that matter, competitions mainly because I don't want to pay another association fee.  Thus,  those that pay this association fee likely have the same feeling as I, and hesitate to join USAWS.  Point being, if grassroots could take the place of INT, they join USAWS, likely over INT/WWA association fees, and USAWS experiences growth.

 Way outside the box would be USAWS doing what it should have years ago, and letting WWA run wakeboarding, since it has done so from the start.  Wakeboarders aren't dumb, and the fact that USAWS failed to recognize it as an entity until it was large and in charge only fuels many wakeboarders and their attitude towards skiing.   There are 2 Nationals in wakeboarding, guess how many show up for one and then compare to the other.  Now look at the organizing bodies.  USAWB is poorly organized, and actually turns many riders off from the USA -watersport association as a whole. 

 Skiing isn't dying.  Attending this years Nationals was proof, and especially knowing many "normals" didn't make the trip.  What is dying is access to lakes, courses, JUMPS especially, and the openness of those that do have courses, lakes, jumps letting outsiders use is getting less and less.  That is what makes it difficult, and add to that, I can call up 5-7 people right now and go wakeboard,  1-3 people to go slalom on their course.  When you're crunched for time and access, wakeboarding just finds it's way to being the most common to do.   Hope I didn't offend anyone, wasn't my intention.

[Than_Bogan]

Excellent points, unksskis.  Well thought out and well explained.  I didn't even know about WWA -- quickly discovering I'm even MORE clueless about wakeboarding than I thought I was!

But I wonder if your thought about WWA actually might apply to INT:  I.e. AWSA should just let INT handle the novice tournaments and not try to "compete" against them with Grassroots?

I guess I don't really see wakeboarding taking over INT -- in fact it feels like the opposite from my (admittedly not very informed) vantage point.  From my lake almost everybody going to INT is going mainly for slalom, and then does other things (including wakeboarding in some cases) just for the heck of it.  (And I ski on a public lake, not a 3-event man-made lake, so there are equal opportunities to do any sort of activity.  I can only think of one wakeboarder from this lake who ever got into competition at all.)

[Chef23]

At the most recent INT stop the number of wakeboard pulls was way below the number of slalom pulls. I don't know if there are just fewer competitors or if the number of wakeboarders is dropping but there was definite concern within the people I talked to about the health of the wakeboarding events here in New England.