Adjustments for Change in Temperature

[londonskier]

Some help would be really apreciated. I ride a 67" Strada.  Stock settings. The ski works great in Orlando, but here in London the water is about 50F and its just not the same. Feels like it rides higher in the water and I struggle to get angle, both sides, ie I ski more bouy to bouy.  Its more likely to be my style, but if anyone has some ideas, please post.  This weekend I'm gonna try moving the front boot forward one hole,(coach suggested it), but what about the fin? 

[Than_Bogan]

I've heard many rumors about moving the fin backward or forward to deal with large temperature changes.

Personally, the only thing I ever tried and has some success with was using less wing angle in much warmer water (and obviously more in much colder water).

But different sites can be VERY different.  Water temp isn't the only factor.

[ktm300]

Theories abound my friend. Go here and download water properties article: http://www.jagersport.com/tech.htm When you think you have if figured out, go here:

http://www.proskicoach.com/gear/cold_water_ski_setup/

 

No matter what you do, you aren't likely to ski as well in 50 as 80. Although, based upon his posts, Richard Doane seems to thrive in the cold. Maybe he will have something sage to say about it.

[Jim Neely]

I've moved my binding forward with good success. Also increasing the fin length works for me.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Agreement here with Brent on increasing DFT for colder water, that's what has always worked best for the group I ski with.  As the water cools it gets "harder" causing the tail of the ski to ride higher bringing the tip down too much.  By moving the fin forward (increasing the distance from tail) you drop the back of the ski deeper and raise the tip a bit, giving it generally the same attitude it had in the warmer water with the fin back.

If it skied well in warmer water moving bindings would likely be too large an adjustment IMO.  You want a tweak, not a complete reset.  Increasing DFT has always worked well for me and the folks I ski with anyway.

Cheers, Ed

 

[Andre]

Increasing Distance from Tail = Move fin forward,.Right?

[Andre]

I will! I'm at stock settings ever since i got the Strada.

2 sets tonite,water is 58 and the ski is not turning like it should or was in August.

But ran a nice 32,second one in the drysuit...My main problem right now is that i'm getting to the bouy line earlier then ever and i don't know how to handle it so i missed some passes because i was turning BEFORE the bouy...

[DW]

I actually have success increasing the tip when the water cools down, along with adding dft.  My theory is that the whole ski rides higher so I am trying to get more ski back in the water.  Since the turn radius opens up as the water cools, addng tip will tighten it back up.  DFT does a similar thing w/o any angle adjustment, but will also lose a little angle.

[rq0013]

I have a 66 strada and my water is getting cool (60). I had a hard time riding the ski until I moved my fin back and added depth. Im more on the theory with chris rossi. I had a hard time getting the ski out in front of me, it felt like the ski was gettting sucked back and thats what rossi feels to. I also added depth because the ski rides higher so it adds stability. I refrence this arctice:

 http://www.usawaterski.org/pages/Instructional%20Articles/Slalom/ColdWaterRecommendations.pdf

 

[Roger]

I spoke to the top three skiers here at Okeeheelee, 2 of which run into 41 and one mid 39. None of them change their settings for temperture. Water temp mid summer, 90 to 95, mid winter in the 50s (usually)...

 

[skibug]

This question / debate comes up every year; and I will answer the same as what works for me.  I leave the fin completely alone and move the binding forward 1 hole.  Seems to work for me.  i think that the general idea is to get more "tip" in the ski no matter how you do it.  Water cools down, ski rides higher; it is physics.  Water density changes as the water cools down and buoyancy goes up.

[clemsondave]

I move the fin back in cold water for the same reasons mentioned above. So far, on the Mid, I have not had to move it and we're in a cold spell. Water was apx 66 yesterday. Brrrr.

[Chef23]

Skibug, do you move both bindings forward or just the front binding forward?

[Old MS Accout]

Just add some length to the fin on the strada. I am at 6.720 flat on my strada and am skiing in cold water. I was a 6.710 in warm water. It will bring your tip down. 

[MAD11]

MS,

 

That must be measuring with jaws not tips. When I measured your fin last week it was not that short.

[h2odawg79]

Wow, there are some very different views on how to overcome the colder H2o!

Personally, I also feel the tip of my ski rise and the unstable/fast speeds  going into the Buoy. If the tip of the ski is feeling/looking high and the ski is hauling too much a$$ and not slowing well, then a Binding move to the front or a fin move to the Back will cure this. As MS said, even adding some length (leading edge) will drive the ski tip down as well... 

The question is; How much of what per 10 deg's of change? 1 hole fwd. is probably the simplist for starters. ( I  went fwd. 1/4" or 1 hole on sequence plate and have now added about .005" leading edge for -20 deg's and falling...) 

[Jody_Seal]

Leave the fin adjustments alone' it's winter time, gain some weight it all works out./vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif

[Old MS Accout]

Flat with a goode caliper

I think tips are 6.845

[skibug]

Chef23, just the front binding.  The extra 1/4" of ankle separation is not an issue.  The only time I would move the rear binding is if I was trying something for my on side turn.

[6balls]

Just skied 6 round tourney Pensacola at 75 degree water temp, consistent smoke on 35's, 2.5 to 4 at 38.  Same as I was running B4 left Minnesota.  Today skied 58 degree water in crosswind back in MN and same score...water a little faster here.  Maybe something I should do w/fin/wing/binding, but not too inclined given same scores.  I tend to run same on PP, SG and ZO, too, though have run rare 38's ZO.

[thager]

Mr Ross you are an animal!!

[PJ]

usually when it gets cold i'm trying to figure out how to get my tip up

[Ed_Obermeier]

Apparently different things work for different skiers.  I know for a fact that moving the fin forward (increasing DFT) works for me in colder water, but I'm only sking from 28 into 35 off 34 mph.  Others will just as vehemently state that the opposite is correct.   Maybe it's different for shorter line skiers or maybe it's a technique thing that varies between skiers?  I do think that I tend to stay more back on the ski if that means anything.

Ed

[6balls]

Thager, my brother Jim was a bigger animal running 38 twice during the 6 rounds at skiwatch in Pensacola this weekend.  You can find one of his dopey easy 38 passes on youtube...worth a watch to see how non-radical he runs it.  He ripped off a bunch of 35's today back in the cold MN water, too...no fin/wing/binding adjust.  Maybe we should adjust, but we seem to ski same both warm and cold. 

[thager]

Are you on a Fisher too D? Water here in S. MN was 65 degrees today and I couldn't run snot at my home site. Skied OK last night at Pine Island with MS after a 2 week layoff. I'm on an Elite. Part of my problem may be tightening my accusink course but not recalibrating the ZO entry gate points? Everything just felt out of synch.

[6balls]

Bro Jim was on a fisher but for last 4 weeks on a new Razor and loving it.  I'm on a D3 RCX...probably Z7 ST for next year.  We had fun w/MS and wife Kim at Pensacola.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Just to beat the dead horse a bit more...  My buddy RaintreeSkier and I ended up doing a little experiment this morning, thought I'd share (as if anyone gives a damn at this point). 

Neither of us had messed with our fins since the mid summer water temps were pushing 90 degrees, current water temp around 65.  He reduced his DFT about 0.004 (fin towards back of ski), I INCREASED mine (moved the fin forward towards the front of the ski) about 0.005.  When I skied Wednesday on the previous settings the ski just didn't feel "free" and I struggled on it.  Today the ski felt much better and more free and I ran back-to-back 32's no problem on it.

RTS said his was stopping on him at the ball and he was having a tough time getting wide.  Second set he moved his fin forward about 0.003 - .004 from where it had been before he made the previous move back and he skied much better, agreed that the ski was freer and was easier to ski on.

That's what works for us FWIW.

Ed 

[Steven]

That's what I do and it seems to work well. Fin and boots forward with the fin longer and shallower to allow for slip while trying to keep the same fin area as your stock set up for cold water and fin and boots back with the fin deeper and shorter to keep the same fin area as your stock set up for warmer water. As if anyone cares!

[Ed_Johnson]

Ed O,

Agree 100%. Thanks for posting.

I just noticed on my Mid that the tip is starting to rise near the finish of the turn both sides. Water temp has gone from 92 to 80. Moved the bindings forward 1/4" and problem solved. I know once the water gets below 72 then I will start to feel fast into the buoy and will shallow the fin .005 and increase DFT .005. Works every time.........Ed J.

[h2odawg79]

re:

 "Ed O,

Agree 100%. Thanks for posting.

I just noticed on my Mid that the tip is starting to rise near the finish of the turn both sides. Water temp has gone from 92 to 80. Moved the bindings forward 1/4" and problem solved. I know once the water gets below 72 then I will start to feel fast into the buoy and will shallow the fin .005 and increase DFT .005. Works every time.........Ed J."

It's been a Long day and I'm tired. So, maybe I'm just not seeing things right. But, Bindings fwd. or decreased DFT produce the Same result. They will both increase ski tip contact and help reduce tip rise while increasing the Brakes. (simply put)

 

So, Ed O finds his cold water solution from moving the fin fwd. and increasing DFT. While Ed J finds his cold water solution by moving his Bindings fwd. These are two intirely different adjustments producing totally different (opposite) results! -agree 100%???

 

Steven, are you agreeing with Ed O on your adjustments, as though yours are the same as his???

Am I having a ment down or Twilight moment??? -I'm So confused....http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cry.gif  On the Upside, At least your all agreeing on "something" and thats a Good thing on the Forums!http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif

[Steven]

h2odawg79, ya I'm in agreement with Mr. Obermeier.http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif

[londonskier]

Thanks to everyone for their contributions to my listing question.  I've tried moving the front boot forward one hole.  It didnt work.  This week I'm gonna increse dft.  If that doesnt work, I'm gonna buy a Razor cos I loved the fisher.  Anyone skiing on a Razor?  What do you think of it?

[h2odawg79]

Seems as though some of us are feeling or percieving different symptoms as a result of cooler water. So, I'd think that the Fix or adjustments would also very...

In your case, your not reporting a "fast feeling" and tip rise in and/or thru the turn. So, 1/4" fwd. is probably not going to get you wider. (better angle) As far as your symtoms, if there is no more data to work with, then reduced angle and running straight into the next Buoy. I'd say follow this exerpt from Chris Rossi: "My general rule of thumb is to run the deepest fin possible. IF YOU GET TOO DEEP,THE SKI WILL NOT ROLL UP ON A HIGH ENOUGH EDGE ANGLE TO KEEP THE DIRECTION YOU SET OUT OF THE TURN AND YOU WILL RUN STRAIGHT AT THE NEXT BUOY"...

You only need to find what works for you and your circumstances...

[Marco]

Londonskier- You should give the Elite a try as well.  I am coming off 4 years on the Fischer and it still skis great, but I had an opprotunity to buy an '11 Elite Alpha for 1/2 price.  It is an RTM ski just like the Fischer, and skis very similar.  It is just as fast, has a bigger sweet spot, is not quite as quick at the buoy so it doesn't bite if you climb up on the front like the Fischer does.  It lays down in the water better than the Fish, especially on the offside, and tip rise is almost non existent.  My first set on it I got within a buoy of my PB.  If you like the Fischer, chances are you'de like the Elite as well.

[skidawg]

Ditto

[h2odawg79]

Londonskier, I was a work yesterday and I thought about an "older school" adjustment. I say "older" because it's been around for 10+ yrs. and No one ever talks about it anymore. But, the Lapoints and Ben Favret have documented the effects of flipping the wing over (from what is now our standard mount) and placing it closer to the bottom of the ski. This should provide more deceleration/braking and the ski should roll up on edge more allowing you better angle. This may allow for more edge, but you may also lose some of your off-side turn stability... It's a simple thing to try! (maybe the simplest) I'm going to when our water falls another 10-15 deg's.

Other things that probably account for some people who don't make changes to their ski, is that some people are affraid to touch their settings and just grit it out and ski ragged. While others who are Lucky enough to consistantly stay on the water can better "merge into" the colder temp's and are not as ileffected as those who cannot stay out there consistantly and go out after a week or so off and find the water 15 deg's colder and they ski like crap and wonder why! And then another wk. or two and it might down another 10-15 deg's or even back up 10 deg's... (Ski's are so Darn fussy these days!)  

I am rather surprised at the lack of info. on this thread concerning colder adjustments...  

[6balls]

Londonskier, my brother is on a Razor and loves it.  He ran 38 twice in Pensacola tourney, then ran one the other day w/me back in MN.  He ran a fisher prior to this ski.  I forgot my ski the other day so used his Razor and was able to run 35 back to back first time on it...though more ragged than usual.  When I was "right" on the ski, it was extremely quick across the wake, carried out well and the finish of the turn was amazing.  Seemed pretty sensitive to body position, though...too far front and stopped cold.  I skied two sets on it and felt it was faster cross course w/less effort than my D3, but not as stable/predictable.  It's a higher strung ski than I'm used to, but I can see the potential and my brother just loves it.