35 off help

[skinut]

Ok, I have been running my 32 off @ 34mph pass 3 out of 5 times. I have been cutting the line to 35. I am struggling with one ball. I feel like I am flying straight at the ball and end up turning at the ball and then miss the two ball. What do I need to do to progress at this line length? BTW I have been struggling at this line length for the past 3 years. I PB'd at a tournament with 4 @ 35 last summer, but that was a fluke. I average 2 @ 35 in practice. Any help would be much appreciated.

[jdarwin]

I'm sure everyone has their own advice as to what works for them. Here's mine: Don't try and pull yourself wide. At 35, you have to move the ski out. As you pass the right side gate buoy, give a significant tug with your right arm. As you feel the ski start to move from left to right (under you), let it go. You'll swear that you won't be wide enough to get around #1 but you'll be surprised. Only the ski has to go around the buoy. I struggled with the same issue you are having. Until I mastered moving the ski out (and letting it go), I carried too much speed and "beat the boat" out of #1. Going to 2 ball, do the same thing - pull with your left arm off the 2nd wake. This will prevent you from pulling too long and will allow the ski to move out. It's a pretty simple way of accomplishing what can seem very complex (handle control). I've modified it over the years but this is what got me running 35 consistently. My $.02.

[scuppers]

The above is very good advice!

[Chef23]

I agree with jdarwin conceptually but have never been able to implement. What I have noticed from watching good skiers at 35 off and deeper is that they change edges earlier than I would think and let the ski swing out. I am stuck at a couple at 35 off also. Right now I am hurt so I will probably stay stuck there for until next year.

[jayski]

Edge change for sure earlier, as jdarwin said...just because the line is shorter doesn't mean pull longer...also you rgates probably, again because it's shorter doesn't mean you need to pull out harder or longer and your turn in needs to be sedate too..

[bmiller3536]

Run 32 , Run 32, and then Run 32 some more

Whatever you are doing wrong at 32 is magnified at 35

Once you can run 32 with your eyes closed then you can take time to work on 35

 

[jaredH20]

i second bmillers comment, i only started to progress on 35 when i could get 32 clean, and consistent

 

[skinut]

All great comments. I appreciate the run 32 post. The problem is that when I run it in a tournament I have to bump to 35. Obviously, if I haven't practiced it I won't even come close to having a shot at rounding any buoys. So I feel like I have to practice it regardless of my consistency at 32. I also believe that if I can start to understand how to run 35 my 32's will be much better.

[jayski]

I can see the point of being technically sound at 32 and it getting amplified at 35 but when you start getting into 35 and beyond portions of the technique are different, better to slow the boat and ski it there...Drew got me running 35 starting at 32mph and building up, he used this on some others (pros) as well with great results...other thought, after spending that time at 35, 32 will seem like a cake walk...

[WBLskier]

I am at the exact same point and having the exact same problem. Last year on my old ski I ran 35 a handful of times at 34mph (in practice). Great advice. Thanks all. I can't wait to try it out this weekend.

[Razorskier1]

Early edge change matters a lot and JD has some good advice there. Start doing that at 28 and 32 -- push it earlier and earlier. I also agree with bmiller and OB. I ski a ton of 32s, and optimally you should be 100% (or dang close to it) at 32 before beating yourself up at 35, in my view. If you can make yourself do that, then 35 will come more quickly, and with less risk of injury.

 

The one thing I notice most at 35 and 38 is that I need to slow down, like OB says. It's odd, but I can feel really slow going through the gate, and my pass is terrific -- early to the ball, tight line, easy transitions. I can run 35 with a fast gate too, but it feels like a scramble the whole way down -- sort of turn, pull, turn, pull, turn, pull. That is not the way to run 35. Relax and slow down. Contrary to what we all think, you don't need to fly through the gates, and you don't need a long pull. Start as wide as you can, turn in slow and easy, and keep your handle with you as you edge change off the second wake.

[6balls]

Great advice above. Try to be patient and allow the ski to finish the turn. Easy at 35 to get amped up and try to force the ski in to backside the ball. If you are high on the boat and crank the ski, you will move in toward the side of the boat...all you did was make slack. When it comes tight you are either screwed or overloaded. When a person is dialed you CAN still backside at 35, but you can also run smooth 35's slightly more downcourse than you think.

Oh, and run piles of 32 off! To have much hope of getting out the end gates at 35 you should absolutely own 32. Work on what is discussed by the others above at 32, then reapproach 35.

[Laz]

Great thread. This is my problem at '32 and '28. I think the article in handle control is addressing this issue. I have just started making 28's with some regularity and have only recently tried 32'. I tend to overcompensate and pull like crazy through the gates. This above advice sounds most useful.

[jdarwin]

Scot Jones' has always said " run it - cut it". I think that has some merit. 28 and 32 are similar. 35 and 38 are in another realm. If you can run 32, cut it. But begin to integrate at 32 those things that will make 35 a success. Running 32 clean all day prepares you to run 32 95% of the time in a tournament. It doesn't necessarily prepare you for 35. You can ski straight to the buoy and run 32. You can't do that at 35. You must create an early line to the buoy. It certainly starts at the gate shot. You must make a dynamic edge change and move the ski out off the 2nd wake to have any level of success at 35. I'm not saying my technique/strategy is the best and there are probably numerous way that are better but the end result must be the same; moving the ski out while maintaining a tight line (i.e. handle control).

[skibug]

I too am struggling to make progress at 35'. Usually 1, 1.5, or 2 is as far as I get. I have a question based on Jdarwin's comments about giving a "significant tug" with the leading arm coming off the second wake. I have recently read the article by Chris Rossi that talks about connecting out of the ball with the trailing arm and keeping that pressure and connection through the second wake. I have consciously been applying this theory for the last 1.5 - 2 weeks and my consistancy at 32 has increase so much that I have run 8 out of my last 10 32's and the other 2 that I missed I was around 5 ball. So, is this movement in conjunction with or a transition from trailing arm pressure to leading arm pressure at the point you come off the second wake; or, is this just a difference in overall technique?

[6balls]

I think the Rossi article was a little misleading...not that he isn't right but how it was written. Made it sound like you should really have the majority of the pressure in the trailing arm from the buoy. From wide, this is tough to do...I tried w/rope on trailer hitch after reading Rossi.

In this month's waterski mag I thought addressed clearer. "Your trailing arm is the free hand in your turn. As you complete the turn, make sure you feel pressure through that arm as you grab the handle. While equal pressure is often taught, you will need to have slightly more pressure in your lead shoulder. Feeling trailing arm pressure, though, will assure that you are in a balanced position in your cut, as it prevents you from dropping your lead shoulder excessively." This made more sense to me.

[jdarwin]

@skibug - I think "balance" is the main point of Rossi's article. You don't want to overload with your leading shoulder. But often by focusing on having pressure on your trailing arm, you will remain balanced or "stacked". If you do that and then "create additional pressure" or "tug" on your leading arm off the 2nd wake, you will find it does 4 things; it keeps you on the handle a bit longer. It moves you up over the ski which will allow the ski to carve better in the turn. It allows the ski to move under you and carve out and it prevents you from pulling too long. The last item (pulling too long) is the greatest benefit in my mind. When first learning 35, we try to get to the buoy line early (create space before the buoy) by pulling long.

[skibug]

Jdarwin, thanks for confirming the technique. I will try to employ that suggestion next time out. I think that a lot of shortline skiers naturally have balance and trailing arm pressure without thinking about it too much (like my ski partner who gets into 39' regularly). I believe that your statement about "balance" is correct. I think that I need to focus on trailing arm pressure because I haven't been for so long. Which, in some cases, feels like I may be overdoing it; but, in actuality it turns out to be just the right amount to stay open and stacked. It is still somewhat of a foriegn feeling; but, eventually it will be committed to muscle memory. I am anxious to incorporate your suggestion as it seems there is a lot of concurrence.

[bmiller3536]

All of this is great advice,

I am not suggesting you stay at 32 forever, but take a week, two weeks depending on how many tournaments you ski. Work on all of the advice above at -32, once you feel comfortable go to -35. You will have an easier time applying it at 32

[Razorskier1]

I think handle pressure is really important at all lengths, but increasingly so at short lengths. Years ago I figured that as the rope got shorter, I needed to pull harder and generate more width with power. WRONG! After extensive reprogramming achieved through coaching and watching good skiers, it became clear to me that the lighter I was on the line, the better the short passes go. I have since spent a lot of time on how the handle feels in my hands, because it keeps me from overloading the line at 35 and 38. When I pull out for the gates I think about how much handle pressure I am generating. when I feel pressure, I hold my lean there. Same thing when I turn in. Then I pretty much follow JD's advice and let the boat pull me up after I cross mid-line, keep the handle like OB says out to near buoy width, release, rotate and repeat.

[skinut]

Wow, thank you all for your great advise. Hopefully I will stop banging my head against the 35 off wall and can start making some progress. This is why sites like these are so important for our sport. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Razorskier1]

I am a big believer in bmiller's advice too. Apply the skills at a line you can run. I ran my first 35 off pass in a tournament after almost never practicing that line. I just ran tons and tons of 32s. I also ran my first 38 in a tournament after almost never practicing 38, but a ran a lot of 35s in practice. Even now I go back to 32 anytime something doesn't feel right at 35 or 38 to just dial it back and work on the right sight lines, position on the ski, angle through the gates, edge change and handle control. This despite my feeling very comfortable at 35, where I often run 4-6 35s back to back in a set. I still find 32 a good line length to go back to when I need to fix something. Last summer and this summer I'd say over 50% of my passes are 32s, run early, wide and with a tight line.

[jimbrake]

The discussion above regarding trailing arm pressure is great as that is what I'm focusing on now, but I'm thinking about it in a different way that is helping me a lot on all my passes -especially at 35. When you are in your edge change, your trailing arm is about to become your arm that is still on the line when you release. If you focus on trailing arm pressure through the edge change, then it's easy (for me) to feel load in that arm AFTER the edge change and maintain a tight line out to the apex of the turn. That means the boat continues to take you on an outbound path longer and it gives you much better balance into and through the turn. Just another way to ride a tight line outbound!

[Wolfeie]

Believe me you are not alone in tackling 35 off for the first time.

Last fall I was in your position as far as 35's were concerned....usually getting 1-2 balls and an occassional 4-5 balls. The difference was that I was running the 32 off over 90% of the time. You need to be patient and get to a point were you are running 32 off much more consistant before you expect to run 35 off. Another method is to put a switch piece on your rope and start working on 33 1/2 off. I started running this rope length many times, not even thinking about 35 off. Last fall at the end of the season I ran a half dozen 35 offs, a couple off the dock. Now I usually get deep into 35 off (off the dock) and I am now running it fairly often. But the keys have been certainly working on my 32's so that I rarely miss one, working on the 33 1/2, and keeping the same basic start I have on the 32

on the 35.

[ForrestGump]

Joe, please confirm, though............ you do not mean pull in with that arm, correct? More of a motion of using it to advance the handle outbound with a straight arm.

I ask because I've been driving while Mueller has been trying to break DWest from curling that lead arm.

[Ed_Johnson]

OB, JD, or anyone else,

 

Would you mind sharing what ZO setting you use and what you feel it does for you over the other settings you have tried ?

 

I mention this because at 35 it is critical for me to have ZO pick me up after the hookup and release me by the centerline for an early edge change.

[Old MS Accout]

If you feel narrow at the ball at 35, stay away from A.

[jimbrake]

Ed - pretty consistent with C2. Last night tried B1 (should've tried B2), but that little tiny bit of delay after getting back on the handle bugged me. I will say that in practice I'm going back and forth between PP and ZO a lot and I'm not feeling a lot of difference or getting different scores anymore with PP or C2. ZO is just becoming less and less of a concern it seems like.

[Ed_Johnson]

Jim,

Agree with the C settings. I use C-2 with 5.7L Boats and C-1 with 6.0L. Seems to give me the quick boost I need after hookup to centerline. When I skied with Andy Mapple, he used C-2 also.

[skibug]

B3 for me. I was at C2 all last year and at the begining of the year and switched to B3 about 1.5 months into the season. I have been on it for 2.5 months now. FWIW I ski behind a 2009 MC 197 TT; the boat pulls like a freight train and the wake is noticably harder then the SN. I actually wish there was a C- or B+ setting. C2 is a little too early and B2 is a little too soft. So B3 for me and here is my logic or rationale.

 

I am 200 lbs and heavy on the boat and line. I tend to get a lot of angle and pull off the ball. I liked C2 because it picked me up early enough to support me before I started to sink a little or slow down and it also let me free of the boat early (by the 2nd wake). The issue with C picking me up a little early was letting my ski finish the turn; so, the later pick up from B allows that to happen more naturally, without me pushing on it, and hence I wind up in a better leverage position and the ski comes around out in front of me. I just have to be a split second more patient (which is a good thing). The 3 setting gives me all the RPM right off the bat; which feels like I have the support from the boat that I need as I sink into a strong, stacked, pulling position. The acceleration curve of 3 bleeds down the RPM most rapidly of the 1 thru 3 settings which still allows me to be free of the boat just past the 2nd wake (i.e. does not feel like I am being pulled narrow). I think that you need to be somewhat physically strong to hold a 3 setting as it does tend to hit you a little harder.

 

My logic on trying settings is this: Lets say you are at A2 and you want to be picked up earlier; but not hit any harder, then go to B1. B1 is earlier pick up; but the the acceleration curve is softer; the ramp up of RPM is slower. If you are at C2 and want to be picked up later; but, still get the support try B3. B is later; but, the acceleration curve of 3 is stiffer/quicker.

 

So, up a letter; down a number or down a letter; up a number. My theory...not sure if it holds water or not; but, seemed to work for me.

[Razorskier1]

ZO settings are a lot of personal preference. I'm 6 feet, 195 lbs and ski on a Razor. My goal is to build my speed before the first wake, and be free after the midline. For me C2 does that. B2, which is where I started, didn't pick me up quick enough and, more importantly, carried me too long. Different settings fit different skiers.

[rq0013]

yeah I think the persons weight is a big factor because Im 150lbs 5 11" and I use B1. Seems the ligher skiers use a later pull compared to heavier skiers.

 

[Andre]

OK.All the trailing and leading arms comments may be confusing to some (me).

When going through the gate,the leading arm and back arm are the same:right arm ...right?

Almost as confusing as Horton toe-heel side turns...:)

[Than_Bogan]

I think the hope is to stop using "back arm" since it confused everyone (definitely me). I actually think different instructors used "back arm" to refer to different arms!

 

Through the gate, leading is right, trailing is left. Those are the terms to use because they're way harder to mess up.

[skibug]

Yes, trailing arm / leading arm is much better terminology. Trailing arm is the arm that comes back to the handle around the buoy, the arm that is opposite your direction of travel across the wake. It is the left arm going to 1, 3, 5 and of course the right arm going to 2, 4, 6.

[ToddL]

Concerning ZO settings... I am seriously convinced that the number has everything to do with the skier's weight. To me it is this simple: If the skier pulls the boat speed down a lot, then the number has to be higher to recover more efficiently. When the skier's weight and the number are not matched, then you have problems.

 

1 = small increase in throttle is used to recover lost speed.

2 = medium increase in throttle is used to recover lost speed.

3 = large increase in throttle is used to recover lost speed.

 

Thus, if a heavy skier pulls down the ideal boat speed a lot, and is using 1 in their ZO setting, the boat's throttle will have to stay up longer since the small increase in throttle is not sufficient to recover lost speed quickly.

 

Also, if the boat's engine is stronger or weaker, then the number's effectiveness is impacted. A 6.0L engine with a 2 setting on ZO may perform similar to a smaller engine with a 3 setting.

 

Regarding the letter setting... The letter is a matter of balancing your skiing style with the throttle reaction timing. When do you want the boat to support you? early, middle or late? C, B, or A, respectively.

 

When you combine these factors together, you can see how a large skier who cranks hard right out of the turn skiing with ZO on A1 would feel like the boat's pull is soft (often desired), but gassing them down course into the next buoy (a.k.a. not free of the boat).

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddL Very much agree with your ZO characterization. I am lightish (170lb) skier with an even lighter style, and for me 1 is mandatory. A/B/C don't make as much difference for me. C is the most helpful if your technique is solid out of the ball, but I've found B is maybe just a hair more forgiving to my brand of mistakes.

 

A heavier or harder pulling skier needs a harder throttle response (i.e. 2 or 3) because one way or another ZO is going to get the speed right. And that means that too light of a response turns into too LONG of a response, which is bad.

 

I still have my fingers crossed that this part will be automated someday. The accelerometer seems to provide enough data to make a very good guess about how hard the skier is pulling and automatically do the right thing.