Pros useing Rear Toe Piece instead of Rear boot

[gregy]

Wow, I was looking at the podium picture for Diablo. All 4 finalist were using RTPs. I knew Nate, Tgas, I guess Mapple had some influence on CP. Will Asher must of went back. Must be something to it?

 

What's the advantages to Rear toe piece. I knew a really good skier who said he liked to move is foot around. I been using a rear boot since I was 19, can't even remember it.

[BraceMaker]

Step off dock starts - cold water.

[MrJones]

T Gas talked about his ability to adjust on the fly with the toe strap. There is also an article in WSM this month by Schnitz about boot vs. plate on the rear. I'd like to give it a try this winter actually.

[ForrestGump]

Watch closely the still pictures of Nate or Mapple that are out there in their edge change. They are allowing the ski to rebound into and under them with their knees(while their core and upper body is still leaned away) and their rear heel is WAY up in the air. You can't do that when you're locked into a rear binding.

[6balls]

Allows me to lift my heel, also allows me to do hole shots with one leg out. For a guy whose weakest link is his low back, the easier hole shot alone is worth it to me.

[H2OSkiGirl]

I was wondering the same thing and was asking Boody about it on our long drive home from the Pro-Am... I was in the boat for all OM and the H2H and was amazed at how when they dropped a lot of them pulled their back foot out. I just feel so stable in the double boot, but the Goode bindings do allow for the rear heel to lift so maybe that is why?

[Skoot1123]

Makes you go "HMM" when you see the scores they put up and are using an RTP. Did those in previous generations really have something figured out??

[MrJones]

I have to disagree with my fellow Scot. (I am a Scot with one "t" as well) I think that you will find more skiers in the future going back to a rear toe. The only reason I switched years ago is because the better skiers in my club had them so I went to it as well. I now wished I had never switched.

 

There are a lot of kids now using a toe. Chad's son Tyler is a toe strap guy and I don't think he is changing. We have 3 kids who are skiing and I have no plans of switching them to a double boot as they grow. There is obviously no performance advantage (reference the pros mentioned above) and it is sure less expensive. I would also really love to be able to do the flying dock start when the water is cold. (I've done it with both feet in, but timing is critical and misses are hard on the back:)

[SkiJay]

You can add Neilly Ross and Page Rini to the RTP list too. If Drew and Matt thought there was a better setup, their kids would be using it. In fact Drew is on a rear hard shell himself, and he put Neilly in a RTP because he thinks it's a better way to go.

 

 

[eyepeeler]

20 years ago...Kristi Overton Double boot, Carl Roberge DB, Lucky Lowe DB, Kris Lapoint DB, Bob Lapoint DB, Wade Cox DB, Suzi Graham DB, Jennifer Lapoint DB. Scot, Come on Man!

[A_B]

I went to double boots on my EP Pro Stock (a long time ago). Used a rear heel cup from adjustable boots bolted to the ski prior to that. I don't like my heel sliding around but do lift it up. I do not over-tighten my rear Strada boot so my heel can lift. I feel it on deep water starts as well.

[jimbrake]

@Scotchipman - 20 years ago was only the early '90s. I guess you're a lot younger than me, but that ain't exactly the ancient times and there were tons of people using double boots in that "era". My first set of double boots was in '83 and they weren't at all uncommon then. You'd probably have to go back another decade yet to find the majority of open level skiers using a rear toe piece.

 

I think a lot of kids probably still learn with a rear toe piece and if they are successful, they just stay with it because that is what they are comfortable with. I took my kids out of a toe piece and kind of forced a rear boot on them because they were taking some sketchy falls with one foot in, one out. I can see some potential advantage to being in a rear toe piece, but not sure you'll see a lot of people switching to them from a double boot setup.

[ToddL]

I love my Strada double-boot setup. I feel like every degree of lean is transfered to the ski, yet, I can lift my heals and feel weight on the balls of my feet. I also feel my rear heal lift during deep-water starts. Plus, I can sit in the water in them forever with zero cramping. Training sets are never ended early due to foot cramps.

[thager]

Dumb question but why couldn't rear boots pivot? Only attach the front shell bottom to the pivot point so the heel could lift. Must be a rule?

[T8skier]

Cooper Tate is on RTP and ripped this weekend. Maybe a little partial.

I think it's a bad idea have young kids on hardshells or double boots.

I watched Cooper take some falls that would have put me in the hospital.

[MattP]

I ski a RTP. Enough said.

[MrJones]

I have to say that it has been a bit of an "American" thing to go to double boots if you look back at it. Andy, Jodi, Mike-Helena K., Patrice, Brett Thurley, Mick-Karen-Bruce Neville, etc. had rear toes. Most of the US skiers from the 80's were dbl boot guys/girls.

[bhs]

@Scot how old do you think Nate, Will and Tgas are? I really don't know, but they seem pretty young.

 

My Brother had a K2 waterski in the 70s that had a kicker with a heal cup. The first double boot ski I skied on was a Kidder Redline in 85 or 86. Never skied a course or went to a tournament in that era but I remember double boots being common in Bart's or the Overtons catalog.

[thager]

I had a double boot on my Northland Pro in 1971. Used a hard plastic Cypress Gardens heel

screwed on behind the normal rubber toe piece. Not pretty but it worked.

[Waternut]

I love getting up with a RTP and never felt insecure in it but I had an accident where I rolled and the ski didn't which about snapped my ankle. I was a teenager at the time and although I fully recovered from the accident, I'm mentally scarred and can't ski aggressively with a RTP anymore. I took about 6-7 years off when I went to college and picked it back up and used a RTP again for about a year because I was broke. Never really felt comfortable and always rode the tail. Now I ski with boots that either don't release at all or boots that both release from the ski together.

 

It's like driving without a seat belt for me. It's unlikely that I'll wreck but I don't feel safe so I'm more nervous about it.

 

Doesn't Marcus Brown ski double boots because of an accident?

[MattP]

@jfw432 I know he has a modified front boot because of a accident.

[BraceMaker]

@thager

I think we're in the infancy when it comes to binding products, and skis in general. If half the $$$ spend on downhill ski bindings/tech filtered into slalom skis, the products would be well ahead of where they are. But the fact is, we have a small industry, with EXTREME forces.

 

My original switch to double boots occured after a highwrap front RTP spiral fractured my femur. Fact is, if you fall going through the wakes with enough rotational force, a heel will come right out of an RTP and a foot will stay right in any wrap binding. So when I look at a system rotational release is a priority. Either it needs to trap both feet, or it needs to release consistantly with torsional load when you have only one binding. What does that leave in terms of product?

 

Certainly the Goode doubles, the Fogmans, The FM dual boot systems, many of the Radar products. Of course all of these if you let the rear heel up will not release, for instance if you do not tighten your ratchet straps on the back binding and your heel comes up 3" you can now fracture your front ankle before your rear binding lifts up enough to disengage the release unit.

 

On a Front Boot/RTP you have the same scenario but most of the front boot only systems are pretty good in that crash "mode" OTF in reflex RTP is a release, OTF in Goode Single is a release if the heel interloc is set properly, OTF in an E-Series is a release, OTF in a Revo is a release, OTF in a wiley's front Highwrap RTP is a release. Again when all are set properly, wetted prior to skiing blah blah blah.

 

Danger mode? Rotational loading. Reflex+heel adjusters = locked in during rotational load, same with Revo, Wiley's, Goode, etc. etc. What front binding allows rotational release consistantly???? I cannot think of any. Hence if you do not have both feet in and locked down you have rotational forces with rotational injuries, spiral fractures, severe sprains etc.

 

To me, you go double boots after an injury because you lost 2 years hobbling around on crutches with fixators, therapists, and pain. We have far to go.

 

 

[gregy]

I'm surprised that someone has not come up with a rotational release like the snow skies have. I thought Reflex might but I have never seen any up close.

 

The top pro skiers seem like they really don't have many bad wipeout type crashes. Myself, it's much more common, at least once a month, so maybe I need my "safety belt" on.

 

Went from a EP comp with adjustable binding / rtp in '84 to double bindings, think it was a HO mach 1. Been using them since.

[6balls]

As a M1 and M2 skier, I was pretty much the only guy I ever saw in a toe loop at tourneys (except my brother). This was 90's and early 2000s.

[andjules]

Like @ToddL, I think this a spot where the Radar RS-1/Stradas stand out. They perform best while still loose and allow quite a bit of heel lift, so you get the best of both worlds plus a very safe release system. So, for @Thager, you can essentially do what you're suggesting with the play btwn the liner and not-too-rigid shell.

 

Seems like the majority on BoS are 40+ yrs of age. I'd hate to see everyone rush to a RTP setup because of this trend among pros. The advantage to your skiing is likely slight (plenty of folks taking their double boots to way deeper line lengths than I ever will) but the disadvantage to your falling is significant - you want both feet in or both feet out. I know my number one goal is to just keep skiing. I'd hate for one bad fall to take me out for a couple of seasons with a snapped ACL.

[MSJ]

This could be a compromise?

[Nando]

Before switching to a double boot many years ago I added the Maherajah Heel Holder to a couple of my skis. I had a few of these things and used them for a coouple of years and thought they were great. I think MSJ's system or the Reflex R style look great. Here's an old Maha ad i found- check out those prices!

[andjules]

@Nando - any idea what year that's from?

[estrom]

I don't know enough about the differences in safety pertaining to certain types of falls. I just feel more stable in double boots. As for performance, it's probably like using different grips in golf, that is, personal preference.

 

[mr_pretzel]

So it is less safe to us a RTP?

[estrom]

@Nando, that's a great ad. I know Bob Maher and he would get a kick out of that. My guess is that is from the early '70's, maybe even '60's since it's a Sausalito address. That's before he was in Healdsburg where he was making skiis for the LaPoints.

 

[Razorskier1]

I use RTP because I have always used RTP. My most common bad fall, which I try very hard to avoid, is the OTF. When that happens I consciously pull my back foot, and literally jump out and away from the ski. If it isn't going to be too bad of a fall or I can get to my back, I keep the ski with me. In the end the safety issue to me is in my hands. If I put myself in a place where I'm going to get my ass handed to me, then I'm probably going to get hurt regardless of the binding system. Might not be a knee, ankle, leg bone, but probably will be a neck, shoulder, head, etc. My focus for the last few years is simply to be smarter about when to give up the handle and just accept that you aren't going to get there this pass. Live to ski another day . . .

[bogboy]

That maharajah looks like a "low taper " design.

[Bulldog]

Someone should try a mountain bike shoe with a SPD peddle/cleat on the ski. It would flex and release. OTF could be a little scary though…..

[andjules]

@mr_pretzel yes, RTP is generally considered less safe. One leg going one way, the other going a different direction (with a big object attached to it) can lead to nasty joint injuries. This is essentially the reason that snowboarders don't need releasing bindings but snow skiers do.

[Waternut]

@Bulldog I have considered just that concept. I think in an OTF, your legs would go crazy and you'd come out. When I go over the front on a bike with clipless, I come out of the pedals. The problem I see is steering the ski and getting on edge. I feel like I would twist my feet independently while skiing causing accidental release.

[jimbrake]

@andjules - thank you. Some will argue that point (both feet in and connected) forever, but in my experience, that is the safest.

[mr_pretzel]

@andjules

But that means that any system with 2 different releases is also unsafe? So a double animal for example wouldn't be safer than an rtp and an animal. What systems release both at the same time?

[estrom]

@mr_pretzel, your first question is correct. I was running some binding questions by Wiley's and they said mixing different bindings is not safe because of the different release points.

 

[andjules]

@mr_pretzel you have a point: no system is perfect. But I think experience will show that (matching or similar) double boots far-more-often-than-not/far-more-often-than-RTP-setups release either both feet or neither. Yes, I've had falls where my front foot only came half out. But exceedingly rare.

[andjules]

oh, and to answer your last question, I guess hardshells on a single g10 plate connected to the ski with interloc would be a system where both feet release at the same time. But the whole dark science of how much interloc etc. is too much for me.

[gsm_peter]

Is there any statistics available on accidents with Dbl bindings versus RTP?

Could a long term poll (maybe here) be usefull for the industry to develop safer bindings?

[BraceMaker]

@mr_pretzel - I think the argument exists that so long as the system you use is similar front/rear, and not overly tight that you will either release both or neither.

 

So double animals set such that both bindings take approximately the same force to pull up out of would be OK, tight front animal and RTP, or tight rear animal looser front etc. could in theory increase risk.

 

about the only binding systems that actually do what you describe are either double boots on a shared plate, or the FM 66 which has only the rear release pin, and two plates which interloc in the middle, front plate technically is held down by tension through the plates from rear pin and a small section of plane velcro (not dual loc) which is more or less to allow you to jump off the platform or a dock.

[6balls]

I'm a toe loop guy, what do you guys think about weight? I skied w/a buddy in Chicago a few weeks ago and he's on a 2 yr old HO and runs into 35. I apologize for not knowing the specifics of model and bindings.

The double bindings rode on a single, narrow bar that was mounted between brackets fore and aft of the bindings. The ski and bindings together weigh a TON! The set up looked cool and very trim, but man was it heavy. Even with bindings released the blank ski with brackets and no bindings was heavier than either my Razor w/leverage and RTP in place or a D3 RCX w/Leverage and RTP in place.

Another buddy skis with a Goode system w/dual lock where both release or none at all, and his set up is pretty light. Good dual lock is important, however, as when his started to wear out he would separate from his ski when killing the course and taking an average turn...no fun.

As for safety, I fall in one of two ways. Over-turn and spit, or progressive out the front (well, there is that overturn combined with a progressive out the front...so 3 falls). In the out the front I keep the handle, rotate, land on my back and skid on my back with my ski up out of the water as high as I can get it. Think for a moment how much harder that skid with ski up is to accomplish with two feet locked in. If it's a more straight out the front it's pretty easy for me to release rear toe plate and essentially leap free of the front binding as @razorskier1 described above. In those cases I still keep the handle, make the same move ski free and skid it out on my back...maybe old barefooters instinct.

I'm not saying a RTP is safer than dbl's. If there was a drastic difference, however, you would be seeing lots or torsional knee injuries in the RTP crowd. Maybe there could be data to back that assertion but I haven't seen it. If the data is there, I'm more than happy to swallow it...would be useful info for all of our safety.

[Waternut]

@mr_pretzel, When I was looking for releasable hardshell bindings that kept both feet together, I was able to find 3 maybe 4 companies that made them. The most popular are the Goode Powershells but I personally hate the idea of the interloc tape. Constant swapping at $50-$60 per replacement and dealing with tape residue each time. Forget that, especially since I enjoy allowing new ski friends to use my ski who may take an OTF fall. Connelly Stealth bindings look awesome but they were outside of my price range so I didn't look too hard at them. Fogmans looked like they released together but are they still around? I settled on the HO EXO bindings and have been happy so far but have yet to trip the release system even after dialing back the tension and taking an OTF fall (it was a fairly slow speed fall though).

[ForrestGump]

FYI...... my exo's released through the gates at 32 off at Diablo Shores. Made big splash as I splattered myself all the way to one ball. It was an explosion that left me very sore through the weekend. Not sure why. Maybe I didn't snap the release fully in place after putting my ski together when I arrived.

[cacman]

Tonight I put a toe loop on my A2. Its been at least 20 years since i've skied this way. It took me 6 passes to make my opening pass of 28 off 34 mph. Ski felt really loose but able to get out in front easier, I think. Notice my back foot really wanted , and did angle itself out a lot. Not sure if i should keep trying or if that would be a waste of ski time. It was fun for something different.