Has any baller injured your rear Achilles in a double boot plate binding? Or do you know of anybody

[gator1]

I'm working on an invention to protect the front foot Achilles when using a double boot plate binding and want to make sure I'm on the right track. So far, it looks like everybody (me included) rips the front Achilles.

[Horton]

What about all the tendons that i wrecked in my front foot?

[MattP]

Double binding plate? Are we talking rubber bindings or hardshell mounted on the same plate?

[gator1]

Yah, you guys are right, not clear enough. Double Hardshell mounted on same plate. ANY damage to front foot vs. rear foot while using said double hardshell boots. Thanks for helping me communicate. Along with never running 41 off its clear I'm also not going to be a polling operative for a major political campaign.

[Waternut]

Tore my IT band in my leg but so far no ankle injuries with double boots. *knocks on wood*

[jayski]

Kurt Hinz tore both achilles a few years ago in an out the front at the buoy with the Fogman system...

[Marco]

Did my front achilles on a reflex with rubber rear...

[gator1]

Haysoos Kristo, @jayski, I can't imagine doing both at once. Did Hinz come back from that?

[gator1]

@OB, was yours an OTF or twisting fall?

[jayski]

@gator1 no idea, just remember him getting drove around in the golf cart at Swiss with his feet up over the front and both legs in casts...talked to him a bit about it but not too indepth

[JohnCox]

Didn't tear it (rear) but did enough damage to spend 6 weeks in a boot, and 6 weeks in an air cast. Draft bindings.

[T_C]

Complete tear back foot Double hard rubber Boots.

[gator1]

@tc, were the boots mounted to a releasing plate or screwed to the ski?

@horton: in hardshells on a plate?

@Marco, @OB, think I could have saved you both, know I could have saved myself

@johnCox: Draft bindings were screwed directly to ski, right?

[Zman]

Complete Achilles rupture, front foot, double rubber boots on a single G10 plate with dual lock to ski. My release was intended to be the boots, and for years I always came out of boots just fine - and I had some dandy crashes and OTFs. The evening of the injury I was making first set with new rubber boots, and after second pass I commented to my driver that I had no heel lift in these new boots (same model, just newer with design changes). Stuffed the tip at 3 ball and as my body lunged forward, no heel lift - something had to give - pop!

[Zman]

@gator1 There were about 6 or 7 of us poor souls with ATR last summer and fall. You can search the thread on "Achilles surgery" and see who was in the club. I believe it was mostly front foot ATRs, but some were back foot as well. I think all or most were hitting the buoy or when coming around the buoy. Mine was stitched on July 19th, finally got back to free skiing runs last week. Have three sets in so far and feeling good.

[Horton]

@gator1 I was in a home made system. Hard on front had rubber in back. 100% my fault.

[9400]

How many of the injuries were in cold water? I'm not sure what the temperature of cold water is, in my book, it's any thing under 60. When I used to use rubber boots, they were always hard to get off in cold water. Also how many hit buoys?

[Than_Bogan]

Crap! My answer is wrong! I *do* know somebody who used a double-boot and (at different) times blew out both of his achilles tendons. And since he didn't switch which foot forward, I have to assume one of those times was the rear foot!

[gator1]

@than_Bogan: Don't go trying to outsmart the Poll! No wrong answer, only data. Was this somebody on a releasing plate binding (fogman, stealth, Goode, reflex, fluid motion, etc), or was he in double boots screwed to the ski? Thanks!

[Than_Bogan]

@gator1 I don't know. I *think* it was in dual rubber boots, but I'm only about 60% sure.

[gator1]

@Zman, thanks, I'll go search the thread. Glad you're back on the water!

@9400, almost all the OTF ankle injuries I have been able to track down happen around the ball; either stuff the tip, or skip the tail, or hit the ball. And if we're counting on compliant rubber boots to let go, anything that disturbs the balance between retention and compliance, be that cold water, new tight boots, using soap to get the bindings on (sucks all the skin oil and plasticizer out of the rubber, leaving it "sticky"), and stiff boots just out of the basement in springtime can cause the rubber boots rip us up.

[WBLskier]

Has anyone torn their Achilles or know someone who has at the ball when the balls are half filled with water to sink them?

[Marco]

I hit an air filled buoy when I did mine. Now I have water filled buoys, but I haven't hit one since. If I'm heading at the buoy, I'll stand up and ski away, even in a tournament (unless they are bubble buoys). I haven't hit a buoy since my accident in '09.

[Zman]

@9400 My ATR was in July - so water was plenty warm, even in IL. But, you are on the right track - the front boot I had just put on was a newer and much stiffer rubber design, and the heal was a much tighter fit - even though it was the same size and "model". I am absolutely confident my foot would have released from my older boot when I stuffed the tip, and there would not have been an injury. Needless to say, I'll never use those again. They were horribly uncomfortable too (vs the older version).

[gator1]

Thanks to all for your data. A number of Ballers have asked for detail on how the Gatormod works. I'm getting close on the patent application, and hope to be able to get the disclosure and drawings on BOS in about a month. After that I plan to see if any of the plate OEMs are interested.

[Than_Bogan]

1) I know a quite good patent attorney in a private practice with relatively reasonable rates. Let me know if interested.

2) My ski partner @MikeT is coming off blowing up his front Achilles and is VERY interested in protecting it. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd be interested in some early adoption and/or feedback. If so, we'd of course sign an NDA. Let me know if interested in that.

 

nathaniel UNDERSCORE bogan AT alum DOT mit DOT edu

[The_MS]

When I saw @gator1 post on bindings I was thinking he is really Eric with a new patent on his Gatoraid lids binding attachment system.

[PatM]

@Than_Bogan I think you are refering to Bruce? If so he did both achilles and was on a old Fogman (I think modified). Or maybe it was a modified Goode setup before he went to a Fogman setup.

 

[Than_Bogan]

Yes referring to bruce.

[waterskicorey]

I tore my front one in double high wraps (HO Animals) OTF back foot came out front didn't. Tore my rear one 3 years later, same fall but Goode hard shells, they didn't release on a OTF

[gator1]

@waterskicorey, are you still skiing?

[BRY]

Havent hurt either Achillies (knock on wood) but sprained front foot last summer. Dont know anyone personally with an Achillies injury either. But everyone I know on dbl boot, single plate systems have buggered the front foot at least once. 5-6 people. Seems to be variations of the force going through the bottom of the foot so no movement to allow release. OTF essentially but not over the front of the ski, more over the toe, sort of falling "through" the ski. Seems to stem from at the ball: stuffing tip, over turning or severe break at waist. Not explaining it well but hope you get what I mean.

Think that is an inherent liability to single plate, front foot exposure. Inherent to dual release (F/R) is exposure to one foot in, one foot out. Trade offs, there's allways that 1 in 1000 fall. How many skiers time how many falls per season? Unfortunately seems to come around to all of us at one time or another. A better way would be good.

[waterskicorey]

Yes I am, they are almost as good as new, no problems with either of them.

[gator1]

@bry, you are explaining it well. "falling through the ski", same as being crushed by G forces onto the nose of the ski. Quad and calf muscle are overpowered, knee goes forward while hips are dropping and moving forward, ankle goes to overflex, long lever arm of back half of single plate provides too much leverage for AT to overcome. POP. (or riiiiiiiiiiiiip) As @ob said "felt like toes touched the back of my calves".

 

And you have succinctly outlined the situation: dual release weakness is one foot in/one out twisting fall, and single plate weakness is the crushing OTF. And, to add, we never know what the hell a soft rubber boot system will do, and discussing for weeks how tight to tie the laces on the liner-ed double fixed boots seems like throwing a witch in the river to see if she'll sink.

 

Of the 7 guys I ski with, three have had front foot surgery. One is permanently crippled, and will have his ankle joint surgically fused. I am 18 months into it, and still can't run. This is bullshit.

 

@waterskicorey, You're a tougher man than I. If I hadn't figured out Gatormod I'd have quit.