“How it is made” the Baller Version / Radar Vice C

[Horton]

[DooSPX]

Pretty cool watching the process of building a ski. Thanks @Horton!

[mwetskier]

senate c or vice? the guy on the video and the top of the ski say vice.

[rq0013]

Vice. Thats pretty cool. I would love to go there

[Marco]

Way better than the version I saw on the Science Channel last week! Nice job.

 

@Horton -How many skis can they build in a day?

[Horton]

@Marco Not sure. With a bunch of guys doing prep I guess 4 or 5 per hour.

[Horton]

Yes the title was wrong before. The ski is a Vice.

[SkiJay]

... + packaging + warehousing + shop maintenance + marketing + distribution + administration etc. This video helps explain why skis cost so much. Great video @Horton!

[teammalibu]

After watching the video it is obvious why no two skis are ever going to be the same!

[ForrestGump]

@teammalibu That's the exact thought I had when he laid that half sheet down. If it were 1/2 inch in either direction, it would change where the ski flexed just a bit.

[acmx]

@teammalibu,@ShaneH, that's what I was thinking when I saw the puddles of resin between the sheets during layup, maybe it squeezes out in the press. Cool video.

[thager]

I got to see the ski layup process just before Eddie left HO for Radar. He wasn't supposed to give any tours according to the receptionist but he did anyway. I would say from the vid that the process really hasn't changed. Eddie, I really appreciated the tour. Thanks again!

[DanE]

I actually thought the craftsmanship was quite impressive, I can imagine what it would look like if I gave it a try- epoxi dabs and slobs everywhere, carbon layup bunching here and there...

[ForrestGump]

@acmx You've got 2-3000 psi of pressure pushing down on those two mold shells. The resin flows out and doesn't puddle between sheets.

[Horton]

900 lbs I believe

[SkiJay]

SkyNet may almost be ready, so it's good to know where there's a 3,000 psi press like that. Apparently, it's the only way to stop a model T-800 Terminator ...

[Skoot1123]

Very cool video - +1 on why ski's cost so much. Carbon Fiber isn't cheap either, but this is a very manual process!

 

Curious as to how this compares with other ski companies.... how different is this with other companies?!

[Horton]

To be clear. .. the final resin content is critical and is carefully controlled with pressure. A ski with excess resin content would be bad

[Horton]

@skoot1123

Most companies do almost the exact same thing with tweaks here and there. Goode has a different process and Razor has another. And then there is Warp

[Waternut]

Once the ski goes in the press, only the resin that the fibers can hold remains in the ski. Any fibers that may have been slightly missed should get the extra resin and everything else squeezes out. Even that short piece looks like it's lined up with the edge pretty well where all the others are overlapped and cut off afterwards. I'm guessing that short piece is more of a sacrificial layer for binding chafing more than an actual reinforcing layer that would change the ski characteristics.

 

Notice he squeegee's the resin in with the spatula and rubs with the other hand. When the cloth is fully saturated, it feels slick to the touch. When it can still hold a little more resin, your hand will drag across the cloth slightly. It's not really a "taught" practice but it's kind of a sanity check for the skilled technician. Just helps you confirm that the fibers have enough resin.

 

All and all, I'd say that process would be pretty consistent from ski to ski. He even used every drop of the premixed resin from the bucket. I know it's "handmade" but really there isn't that much that can change from ski to ski. For the DIYer, a vacuum bag process will accomplish the same thing but for mass production, the press is cheaper because there is less waste in consumeable materials and it's faster/easier.

[eleeski]

@Horton @MattP Something is wrong with IE. I couldn't view the video. Opening Chrome made the video visible.

 

Cool video! That looks a lot like how and where I build my skis - except for the clean spacious shop with lots of tools and skilled people. 900psi makes a much better looking finish than my 5psi. That fancy router thingy makes much more consistent edges than the beavers who gnaw mine.

 

I worry about the layup sequence shown on the video. I won't copy the layup and ski that ski.

There had to be more hidden in the Top Secret portions. Like the Steel Reserve they pour into the mold...

 

Kudos to Eddie for sharing with us. And nice video Horton - except the sound. I heard some reference to my skis or was that background noise?

 

Eric

[Waternut]

@eleeski Why are you only getting 5 psi? Surely with all the stuff I've heard about, you've got a better vacuum pump than that.

[Horton]

@waternut he is drunk

[Waternut]

Fair enough....haha

[MarkTimm]

I worked at Kidder Skis in the early 80's, it was interesting to see the lay up process hasn't changed a whole lot but the materials are radically different. The old "Red Line Graphite" had a single piece of carbon fiber that was about two inches wide and was less than half the length of the ski from the tip to the mid section.

[Bulldog]

Fantastic Video!! Thanks John @Horton!

[Jibbo]

Yes Brilliant video, would love to know what the Top Secret parts of course but that's Radars IP. So can respect that.

[Than_Bogan]

Very cool video, but honestly I kinda wish I didn't know. We fret about 1/1000" on a fin, and some (admittedly very skilled) dude is slapping layers together by hand!

 

TANGENT! I work at Cognex, which does industrial machine vision. One of the (easier) tasks we were involved with was the machine that assembles Milano cookies. With a modern vision system and modern assembly technology, it's possible to align the top and bottom cookies to (much) better than the consistency of the cookie shape. But if you do that, it LOOKS like it was assembled by a machine. So the machine is designed to intentionally add a randomize angle angle error so that it appears to have been put together by a person!

[disland]

They are making the Maple skis in the same factory right?

[eleeski]

@Waternut My molds work on a pressure bladder system. I don't use vacuum bagging. My 5psi limit works quite well to yield a reasonably dry laminate, not stress the mold too much and not change the mold's shape. This allows me to use softer tooling which is quite easy to change to accomodate the crazy R&D ideas that I enjoy. I am not trying to build a market ready product - I'm playing with materials, layups, rockers and shapes for fun. The fact that some of my skis perform incredibly well is a nice side effect.

 

@Horton Geez, enjoy the flavor (in moderation) of one Steel Reserve and I'm marked for life. There is a place for alcohol when I work - as a solvent! I'm smart enough to keep my personal alcohol consumption isolated from any meaningful task. Perhaps some of the ideas I try were alcohol assisted but none of the builds were.

 

@Than_Bogan Those slapped layers have much less effect than you can imagine. The structure and finish on those skis is quite rigidly laid out and the resulting product is more consistent than the water conditions at your lake. My hand shaped skis may have variations that can be felt but I've done a reasonable job copying a few good traits between skis. Of course, .001 has no real effect on your skiing either.

 

Eric

[ForrestGump]

(quote)I'm smart enough to keep my personal alcohol consumption isolated from any meaningful task.

 

This is probably where I always fall short.

[Horton]

@eleeski "The fact that some of my skis perform incredibly well is a nice side effect." you mean your trick skis?

 

This is the only phrase that everyone will remember "Perhaps some of the ideas I try were alcohol assisted"

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan

 

The variance that you think you see is extremely minor. Yes, hand layup is not sexy but it is effective. The pressure in the press squeezes out a lot of resin. The exact temp, pressure and time in the mold are key to making skis consistent.

 

If you have ever cut a ski in half you would see that the composite skin is very thin. There is no space for extra resin. I am not sure of the exact resin content of the skin but there is not much extra in there. If a ski company does screw that up and lets the resin content get too high the ski will SUCK.

 

[gsm_peter]

Thnx @Horton

I really enjoy this film.

 

If there will be any other possibilities I would love to read more on 'how things are done'

For example:

- how the handle, rope and knots are done?

- Wetsuits?

- Bindings?

- Fins?

- you name it!

[Horton]

@gsm_peter Any time I get to shoot video I do.

Most of the stuff you mention is made in Asia and I do not think that trip is in my budget.

[rayn]

Very cool to see how the ski is laid up.

 

@horton, the handle idea is cool. I would like to see that one also. Don't Brenda, Masterline, US gear, all hand string right here is the good ole USA :)

[gregy]

@than_bogan we're looking at using a Cognex vision system at my work right now. Not my project so don't know any details. I'll be more involved later down the line.

[Horton]

I just rewatched this for the first time in 10 years. Makes me wonder what the top-secret steps were. 

 

Miss you @eddie_roberts_jr

[Blofeld]

How did I miss this? Cool stuff.

[Jsh809]

This is a great video! Thank you for bumping it back up.