Friend/Newbie Can't Turn Off-Side

[ToddL]

I don't have video. Not sure if I can get any soon. So, I'll do my best to describe the situation. We have a newbie adult skier who is really hooked on our sport. Hooray! However, she can't seem to turn the ski on her off-side (1-3-5). She has pretty good body position: stacked, sufficient weight on front foot, soft front ankle with hips forward and shoulders back. She can cut smoothly through both wakes with a good bit of symmetry. When she is headed into 1-3-5, she just won't roll the ski onto any significant turning edge. There is no slack or anything like that. Just a big lazy wide down-course turn. Thus, she looses everything at those turns. She is skiing at 24.9 MPH, -15 off. She weighs about 115 soaking wet. She is skiing on an HO CDX. She has yet to run a full pass.

 

I've tried a number of approaches to get her to roll the ski over on a turning edge... Maybe I am missing something. What would you say to this skier to help her out?

 

I've tried:

Allow the ski to move under you and out wider when you edge change

Let the ski roll over further

Allow yourself to be leaning over more to the inside of the turn

Ensure you have a fully extend reach at the apex of the turn

Generate more speed headed to 1-3-5 so you can roll over to a deeper turning angle

Cast the ski outbound during the edge change

Bring the outside hip around more at the finish of the turn before reaching for the handle and loading the line

 

 

I am just crushed that I can't find the magic words for this skier to help her bust through this hurdle. I am pretty sure that once she can turn her offside, she will pick up a couple passes quickly.

[Drago]

@toddl, an old one, but worth a try. I still use it with new course skiers: keep her great body position and simply point the ski where she wants to go.

[mwetskier]

per jeff rogers tell her to turn her back to the buoy and try to sit on the 1 ball

[Drago]

Yes a good one, too. That's from Jason Paredes ( to us on the left side, maybe)

[Than_Bogan]

Hey, what ever happened to Paredes? I was just thinking about him yesterday for some reason!

 

Sometimes it helps to say "drive the ski around," and hit the word "drive" a bit hard to connote the effort required. Being a bit too passive myself, sometimes just the reminder to actively do something is the key.

[ForrestGump]

JP got married and moved to France about 7-8 years ago. I know as late as 08 he was coaching and providing waterski vacations there.

[B_S]

If possible, have her try a different ski/bindings. Also, tell her to make a conscientious effort to have the knee cap of the back knee touch the back of the front knee on those off-side turns.

 

[ctsmith]

From a novice perspective, everything follows my eyes. Surely it couldn't be as simple as making sure she turns her head and finds the next ball???

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@ctsmith That may be a dangerous habit, even if it works. For the optimal turns, you want to initiate from your lower body first, and have the head/vision come around last. (I'm still working on this...)

[ToddL]

This is a great start to new ideas! Thanks and keep them coming.

@ctsmith - I get where you are coming from... That ski has to get pointed back across course somehow. The solution may lie simply in recognition of that fact. Selecting the right movements for the skier to achieve this is up for discussion. Keep sharing ideas so that they can be discussed...

 

@Than_Bogan - I agree to a point. I wonder if turning the head a little cross course will get her over this hump so that later we can redirect that gaze down course. Optimally, the hips "drive" the turn and finish the rotation to a valid cross course angle. I've even heard people describe the front foot toe as the initiation point for starting an offside turn, such that the ski turns, then the lower body follows, then the torso, and lastly the head...

[SkiJay]

@ToddL I know you've checked off sufficient weight on front foot with a soft front ankle and good body position, but the physics are that the more the front of the ski is engaged while on edge, the more the ski turns. So one way or another, she needs to understand that it's up to her to get the ski up on edge and to put more ski tip in the water throughout her off-side turn.

 

She can practice leaning more by using and trusting the front of her ski with the pull-out drill on her off-side, then move on to whips/the rhythm drill starting narrow then working it out to bouy width.

 

YouTube Search:

Seth Stisher Lesson 1

Seth Stisher Lesson 3

[SkiJay]

@ToddL Have you checked that her ski isn't wildly out of spec like boots way too far back or fin half an inch too deep?

[ToddL]

@SkiJay - great idea. She is really wanting those buoys, so I'll have to push to get her to do drills. But I agree. The drill where she starts at the curl and drives outward on her off-side leaning stance will make the feeling of being on that edge with front foot and ski "tip" engaged become more comfortable. Hopefully that comfort will transfer into her stance while driving the ski through the off-side turn.

 

Also, I'll confirm her ski make/model/size and see if we can find stock/std settings for it. Visually, it does not appear to be ski settings, but makes sense to check them and cross that off the list.

[swc5150]

I think the biggest thing will just be time on the ski. Comfort and confidence on a ski, for me anyway, came by being on it a lot. Coaching is always great, but one has to put in the time to get comfortable on the ski, and both sides of the wake. Like Denny says, if it were easy, they call it wake boarding:) Great to hear we have a new addict!

[SkiJay]

@ToddL Regarding her desire to beat the buoys, I once had a coach suggest that when trying to jump a big puddle, sometimes it helps to take a few steps back so you can get a good run at it.

[ToddL]

@SkiJay - very zen. love it! I've used this before, too:

Sometimes you appear to be headed in the right direction but on the wrong dead-end road. There aren't any cross-street short cuts to get on the right path. You have to take a few steps back to get on the right path to get to the your final destination.

[Joeprunc]

I'm a beginner too, so take it for what its worth:

 

 

How is her turn offside turn on open water where there isn't a buoy to force her to turn?

 

Is she dropping a hand or still two hands on the handle around the turn? Is it her turn initiation or finish that she seems to have trouble with? Is she real tail heavy thru the turn?

 

I was having a hard time earlier this year finishing my offside turns when I got tired and received a pointer that seemed to help me. I was coming back to the handle too quickly and not letting the ski finish the turn and skiing down course before getting back on edge. Fellow skier told me not to come back to the handle until the tip of the ski comes across the rope.

 

Also I don't like messing with gear or bindings, but sometimes if you rotate the rear binding to generate a more open stance this can help a skier with their offside turn.

[SkiJay]

@ToddL Awesome metaphor! Slalom skiing is FULL of blind alleys. I know cause I've certainly been down my share of 'em!

[JohnN]

For direction, have her point her front knee where she wants to go (i.e. 20' up lake from the next buoy). On a gear note, a looser or softer rear binding, or a toe loop, can make the offside turn easier. Finally, have you done the work your way into the course method - start outside 1, shadow 2, 3, 4, 5, go around 6 and out the gate. When that's comfortable, turn around 2 and 5 as well. then add 3 and 4, then the start gate. The key is getting lots of successful turns rather than one and done.

[ToddL]

@Joeprunc, when she isn't on the buoys, the turn is pretty much the same. it does improve a little with a narrower execution, but it is nowhere near where it needs to be even then.

 

Same result 1-handed or 2-handed; but a touch better with 1-handed reach.

 

Her initiation is very timid. It is like she stands up and rolls to a very slight inside edge. It is nothing like the on-side - where she rolls all the way to a true turning inside edge/angle. Further her finish is weak as a result. She is waiting for the ski to come around and since it is not on an inside edge, it just takes forever. Prior attempts to force it around would result in her pushing with the back foot and drifting the weight to the back foot, so no bueno...

 

She used to be very tail heavy, but has improved to nearly neutral. She could have a little more front ankle pressure, but if I go there with her the shoulders start to come forward and she loses stacked position, making the subsequent off-side wake crossing uneasy. But, still she should be able to turn the ski more even with her not exactly perfect stance.

 

I watch where the water is breaking on the ski a lot. For her it is under the front heal during wake crossings and then under the front toes at most turns. It is never in front of the front foot. She is skiing at 24.9, so she is not generating a lot of speed at that level. If the water was breaking under her rear foot, then I would absolutely address body position and subsequent weight distribution. Like I said, it is not perfect, but it is not severely wrong either.

 

I am thinking that she is a kinetic / tactile learner. She has to feel it to understand it. Once she feels what is needed, then she become comfortable with it and can recognize if she is doing enough to get to that feel. With this problem, I want to figure out how to get her to feel being on her off-side turning edge with some angle. Once she gets that feeling, she should be able to adopt that into her normal skiing... Seth's drills may still be the call...

[ToddL]

@ SkiJay said, "So one way or another, she needs to understand that it's up to her to get the ski up on edge and to put more ski tip in the water throughout her off-side turn. "

 

I think this is pretty crisp and direct. I'll share this, but say, "Until you put your ski on edge, it isn't going to turn for you. The more ski that is in the water while on edge, the tighter the turn will be."

 

That pretty much sums it all up.

 

I can hear her response... "I get that, but how do I make it happen..."

 

My rebuttal, "Make a radical change in how you initiate your turn. Without a significant change in what you are doing, you cannot expect a significantly different result." It is funny how many of us (self included) make a 2% adjustment in our actions and expect a 50% improvement in the results. In some cases your brain has to command an 50% adjustment just to get your muscles to actually do a 25% change, and hope for a 12.5% improvement...

 

It's the old Yoda, "Do or do not, there is no try..."

[ToddL]

@JohnN - I complete agree with get in 6 turns and 6 wake crossings ever trip down the lake. She does this. If she misses 1 ball, she keeps skiing. She always does 6/6 down the lake unless there is a fall.

 

I was coaching her to skip 1 balll, shadowing the whole course, but go for 5 & 6. This makes her stay in time with the course for 1-4, and then push a little wider each time until she is rounding 5 & 6. Since 1-ball is her problem turn, it seems that when she rounds 1, there is no hope for 2, the mid-buoy turns are too narrow due to trying to get back in time with the course, then 5-6 are very difficult due to poor start. I'd rather her make a more controlled turn inside of 1 while she is working on improving the form there...

[gregy]

@toddl maybe have her pull out and see if she can start leaning over and getting the feel of the ski being on edge and turning. Might have to speed the boat up a little with her free skiing, at 25mph might just fall over. I'm thinking a matter of not trusting that the ski will turn.