Broken Tibia with Double Strada Boots and my Binding History

[adam]

I figure most people won't make it through this writeup. I think I fell asleep once or twice through it myself. I'm sure it wasn't the drugs;) With the hardshell questions/discussions surfacing, I thought I would add my .02 from my past experiences.

 

FWIW(very long and on lots of percocets), I'm switching to Reflex front and probably Reflex 1/2 boot rear. I am currently in cast due to the Strada boots not releasing going from 3 to 4 at 38off (LFF). The back boot released fine with the liner, but front one didn't. My front foot eventually came out with the liner still in the boot, but not until a medial tibular plateaux freacture (inside top of tibiea in pieces). The PCL may need surgery too but I have to wait on the results of the MRI that was done post surgery to find out. I thought I was in a safe setup with the Strada's. I don't recall ever releasing with a double Strada setup but I'm not sure I've taken any falls where they should have either until now. I did an out the side type fall past the second wake and rolled to my back and skidded head first on my back until the ski caught. It should have been a non-event/standard release I would have thought.

 

I've skied several other boot and boot combinations over the years. Most of my skiing was on the original black Fogmans and Diablo red fogmans. No real injuries other than occasional sprained rear ankles. The down side from my perspective is:

- The plate can damage skies when you release and it is usually the bottom edge.

- I've had them release a couple of times in the turn when they should not have.

- The release units are expensive for what you get and the pins can develop a wobble.

- You have to make adaptor plates to try other skies while hoping they don't release and hit the ski with the aluminum plate.

- They are heavy, but I'm not sure that is a downside but it can definitely defeat the purpose of the ski companies to go lighter.

- I am one of those skiers that makes sure the crease in the boot is centered on the ski. For some reason, the rear crease of the front boot had a tendency to shift away from this centered position. It had a favorite position that it shifted to that wasn't much off (1/32 or 1/16 at most). More aggravating than performance sapping.

Overall, I've had good success with Fogmans over the years and feel totally safe in them. Will switch back to them if I can't get the Reflex working ski performance-wise.

 

I used FM's in 2005(year?) I skied my practice PB several times with this setup. The boots were huge and would catch the water in turns. I would have been running 39 with those boots if they wouldn't catch. I've come into 4 ball several times early at the buoy and not skiing away from it due to the boot catching. Very frustrating. These boots look like they were put together in someones garage and I felt like I was paying to be part of the R&D effort. I can't complain about the performance I was getting though. I don't think anyone could get a major injury from these boots unless you believe in the death-by-1000-cuts. I have scars on my shins from using these boots. The plastic under the boot kept breaking. The replacement never felt the same as it was custom made. Also, I had some pretty nasty pre-releases in the edge change/preturn when you are not expecting it. They require a lot of maintenance. In the end, I gave up on them and switched back to Fogmans.

 

For a while, I even made some modified FM releases to use on the Fogman plate. Still can destroy the ski when you release though. I have to say the odds of hitting the ski after release are slim. I did it though. I messed a perfectly good Strada up that way that I can't really sell now.

 

Lately, I've been on Strada boots (2012 Front, 2011 Rear). Very comfortable and light weight boots. Can't damage skis if/when they release. I do not trust the centering marks on the boots. I feel like the boots are rotated towards the big toes when they are centered. I actually took out the centering screws and rotated the front of the boot more open as far as it would go leaving the rear of the boot alone. It looked much more centered on the ski and skied better (in my opinion). The 10s felt like a good fit and the 11's would have been too big. If they had a 10.5, I would have went for that to give myself a margin of error. I was just starting to get comfortable on these bindings. I wasted about a year and a half trying to convert to a rear toe plate. I don't trust the front boot releasing on all types of falls.

 

I have a Reflex front boot that I've tried with a toe plate as well as a RS1 rear. I have to say that the Reflex boot was the hardest boot to get used to. I really thought this was a boot that you could just bolt on the ski and everything would be straight and centered. I couldn't even screw it to the ski that any other HO plate fits fine on. I called Miami Ski Nautique and they seemed to think my plate was OK. The holes were about 1/4 screw diameter off if the other side of the binding had screws in it. It appeared to be a stamped G10 plate where all the plates made with that stamp would be the same I'm guessing. I ended up reaming the holes slightly wider on each side of the plate to be able to mount it to the ski. Of coarse there was no joy afterwards when I checked if the binding seams were centered on the ski. Short of making a new plate, I'm not sure I could get them centered. From what I remember, the heel was the most difficult. It has the side adjusting screws to center it. With the release catch higher up on the boot, I don't think simply screwing the boot to one side is really centering it. When I can ski in hopefully about 2 moths, I'll have my work cut out for me making the reflex's work given the problems I've had with it. I need something safe, so it will be worth the effort.

 

If you are still with me at this point, I'm impressed. I hope this helps someone. I'm still not convinced that we have the safest bindings developed yet, but my current vote would be the Reflex's. I just wished they were more of a refined product that you could just take it out of the box and know that it is centered without having to waste time on them. Good luck.

[gregy]

Ouch, good luck with the recovery.

[Horton]

how tight were your laces?

[MattP]

Speedy recovery! Give the Reflex an solid try!

[KcSwerver]

I'm using my reflex out of the box. I couldnt tell if it is centered, or it could be off. But I know it kicks ass!

[adam]

The front lace had a knot in it whewhere i broke it trying to get the boots off one time. Even with the knot, it was looser than the rear.

[Horton]

If you can not take them off without loosening the laces you had them too tight. Sucks that you got hurt.

[mwetskier]

do you know if it was a varus type fracture? or a valgus type?

[AndersonSkiTeam]

Sorry you got hurt. I wear the Stradas as well and they have worked perfectly if I keep them loose. A couple of times I have cinched up to tight and don't quite come out on a good fall that I would expect to come out of. All the other times they have worked perfectly. Good luck in your recovery and finding the right binding option you are comfortable with. The Reflex looks like a good option and if I wasn't on Stradas that is where I would probably go.

[JC McCavit]

Are you telling us everything? How loose were the top strings? Did you check the tightness on the platform by making sure the heel of the liner lifts out of the shell easily before getting in the water? I know one individual who put a orthotic between the boot and the liner. He was a snow skier and he thought the RS-1 bindings needed to be tighter and took no consideration for how they were designed to release. With the extra orthodic he pulled the top strings as tight as they would go and broke his ankle in bad crash.

[adam]

I am not familiar with either of those terms, but after finding them in wikipedia, I would say it is the valgus type. The reason I picked that one is because my leg looked like the lower part of my leg deviated outwardly from the knee down.

[adam]

JC - not trying too hold anything back. After adding the knot,I never did any dry land testing. Maybe I should have. I had never released prior to that. I typically leave the tension the same and just pull the bungee over the hooks. after the knot, the effort required to hook the bungee was the same or less so I thought I was good.

[mwetskier]

valgus for sure then. did you fall before or after the wake? whenever i used the strada bindings i always tested them in while in the water if i couldnt pull my feet out easily by just pulling on the ski tip then i felt they were to tight.

[adam]

mwetskier - Is one fracture type better or worse than the other? it is basically the inside part off the top of the tibia that was in pieces. the doc used a plate and screws to piece it back together and told me he was virtually 100% confident I would be back to almost normal and can go back to skiing fairly soon.

 

I wish I had done more testing with .the strada releases. I haven't been releasing much lately. I guess that ended up being unfortunate. The strada's are the most comfortable boots I've tried and the lightest too although I haven't tried the latest HO version.

[skidawg]

From one crip to another.....prayers for a speedy recovery

[adam]

mwetskier- It was after the wake. I had a LOT of load and was getting more. it wasn't a nasty high side fall. It was a lower risk/impact out the side fall that just results on a skid on the back before I bailed. I was going fast, but had bled some of the speed off before the ski caught.

[adam]

skidawg- Thanks. Prayers for a speedy and complete recovery for you to.

[Waternut]

Sorry to hear you got hurt. Earlier today, I was actually writing on the hardshell thread how complicated it was for me to know the different between secure enough to ski and loose enough to be able to release with soft boots. My Reflex is actually set low and I still think it comes off a little hard. I'm 175lbs and they say max setting is 6 and I'm probably at about 4. If my boot releases my ankle usually hurts while I'm waiting for the boat to come back to me. After that it's fine but I don't think I'd want to go any tighter.

[mwetskier]

the ski catching was what probably caused the actual fracture. a common nick name for it is a "bumper fracture" do to the fact that pedestrians getting hit by cars often result in that same injury. basically the leg is loaded with the persons full weight while the knee is blown out by the impact from the car. in your case id guess the ski was yanked sideways and slammed up toward you at the same time. i cant imagine any binding that could protect against that. hope you heal up quickly.

[BraceMaker]

I've been modding my FM shells a bit for that issue. The shells are bulky - they are meant for grinding rails and are of course "aggressive skate" shells.

 

I have been impressed with the difference between a new revo I have and the old Quattro in terms of build quality - the plates seem cnc machined, where my first ones were bandsaw cut if I'm guess right.

[Horton]

@Adam,

 

Your injury sucks. I think many of us have been is a similar state. I was a jumper so you can imagine…

 

It is super unfortunate that you were hurt in the Strada boots. I wear them and promote them because I think they are the safest thing out there. There is no way to tell but I have to assume that if you had not over tightened the laces you would not have gotten hurt. Perhaps they were not over tight and you were just very unlucky.

 

To be clear, Radar is a smaller advertiser on BallOfSpray. My promotion of the Strada boots is not about business (I wish someone would pay me to use their bindings :-).

 

I injured my front foot in another system a number of years ago. It was my fault. I had set the bindings too tight. My injury will never fully heal. Today, I am uncomfortable walking on uneven ground and can not really run a mile without limping for a few days afterward.

 

I almost exclusively ski in Strada boots because I get enough control and I feel that I am very safe. To me they are the best system on the market.

 

I wish you a speedy recovery and understand if you disagree with what I have written.

[HPskier1]

Broke both my ankles in Connelly Fastbacks about 5 years ago. I totally understand were you are coming from. At that time I really felt like the bindings were to blame because they didn't release. After about 3 months in a wheel chair staring at the boots I realized it was really my fault because I had tightened the boots up to tight and my heels just would not come up. ( I'm not saying it's your fault by any means) but none of these systems are perfect.

The good news is I am sure you will have a speedy recovery.

[skibug]

Any system, any time, everyone, safest is relative only to each skier.

[Horton]

@skibug wise words

[skinut]

I feel your pain. Get well soon. I hope to be back on the water by the end of the summer after a nasty sprain and fractured ankle. My ski tip caught rounding a buoy and I jammed the ankle.

[RichardDoane]

@adam - sorry to hear about your crash damage, and it just goes to show that sooner or later things will go just wrong enough to cause injury, even with properly adjusted equipment, I cracked an ankle years ago in Fogmans that I thought at the time were "bullet-proof"

[andjules]

I did my tibular plateau about 10-12 years ago... wakeboarding! Plate and nine screws, and a lot of physio. The good news is that in the long run, I feel it healed better than an ACL/MCL type injury... and the only thing I "had" to give up was jogging (never liked it anyhow).

I'm with @Horton and others in that I'm still an advocate of the RS-1/Stradas... but it's a good reminder that no system is perfect and a freak fall can wreak havoc.

 

Good luck in your recovery.

[Brady]

@Adam I have to second what @Horton was saying. I have had 3 complete ankle reconstruction surgeries on my right ankle, and have had one on my left. I have to be super careful with my ankles, because I feel pain every single day. (I can literally tear them up walking on a sidewalk and stepping wrong on a pebble.) I bought my Stratas last year and OTF'd in them last October. I tore my mcl and broke my hip and it hurt all winter. Like Horton said, it was completely my fault--I had them too tight. I found that the way they work for me is to have them on tight enough to be "barely" snug. When tightened, I can literally pull the insert out of the shell by lifting my leg while holding down the ski. I still feel snug in them on the course and I have complete confidence in coming out of them after a crash. I hope and pray for your speedy recovery, but before you bail on them, try them much looser and see how they work---and I don't get ANY money from RadaR. :)

[Horton]

To be clear. I wear my top lace as snug as I can and still get out with our loosening. It does take some experience and thought to find that level of tight. I am a bit of a freak about it so I think I got it.

 

I do crank the bottom lace. I confess my front foot cramps.

[danspence]

Sorry to hear that @adam. Sounds pretty bad like, cant imagine how you must be feeling. I did my foot in while riding on the attack bindings, Stretched all my ligaments in my foot about from no release. I like the idea of a hard shell but a friend of mine had a really bad experience with one and kind of put me off. Never know, may try it one day.

[DanE]

@adam Is the -13 Strada boot the same as your -12? I ski in -13 Stradas and I confess, I do crank down the top lace too much on my front boot (bottom lace to the point of cramping, but I think that does not matter from a safety standpoint). However the other day I needed them to release in a nasty ankle biter fall (ski skipping out offside in chop) and they did, without even a sting to my ankles. The reason I ask if they are the same I compared the back panel to that of RS-1s and on the 13 Strada it is much thinner and stretchier, and that stretchy back panel is the reason I slipped out so effortless (along with a slippery material outside the liner on the heel/achilles area. I had the RS-1s some years back and they would not have released the same as my current Stradas. Just wondering if the release properties have evolved (clearly has since the RS1) on the Stradas over the years.

[skihart]

@adam hope you have a speedy recovery. Obviously ever system has certain flaws. I am currently on powershells and have had 3 perfect releases this year.

I was thinking about trying out the Stradas for the safety factor but have my doubts. I find it interesting that many people give powershells a hard time because they believe that dual loc is not truly a release system but rather just a fastening system. True it is reliant on the amount of dual loc on both the ski and the plate. But when you realize that the strada type of system is completely reliant on the amount of tension put on both front and rear laces each time the user puts them on? ......how can this be a safer and more consistent system?

 

[ForrestGump]

You should be able to test the release of any binding(except Velcro attached) on the dock. Hang the fin over the edge, have someone put their foot behind your rear binding, and lean forward. If you can't pull your heels out, it's too tight and you run the risk of an injury. This won't guarantee you won't get injured in one of those crashes like where the ski lands flat and you collapse into it. But it's a good baseline.

[ScarletArrow]

A few thoughts...

 

1 - The Stradas are the most comfortable binding I've ever worn.

 

2 - Finding the correct amount of tightness on the bungee requires a bit of trial and error. The question is, how big is the error?

 

3 - I too wish they had half sizes...a 10 is too short, and an 11 is way too big (thus my modified setup).

 

4 - I leave the bottom laces completely loose and only tighten the top. I still don't release all the way.

 

5 - I've never experienced foot cramping with these bindings, so maybe I need to tighten the lower and leave the upper a little loose.

 

6 - I wish it weren't such a mystery if the bungee is too tight, which is why I'm considering Reflex - the release settings are more objective.

[skibug]

I know I am going to get some backlash on this but I am convinced that RTP skiers should use a heal strap to minimize the one in / one out scenario. I know it has saved me many times in scenarios where I would have been unnecessarily OTF because the force was enough to take my rear foot out of a strapless RTP; but, with the strap it kept me in enough to catch myself from being OTF. In regards to a very bad OTF, I have come out because the time elapsed between the stretch of the bungee and the rebound is enough for my rear heal to come out. This is not to say eventually the odds will catch up to me...but...as stated numerous times above, they catch up to everyone no matter the binding set up.

[estrom]

@ShaneH, good test info. - thanks for that. I use double Wiley's and my foot size is in the grey area between med & large bindings. I use mediums and really have to cram my feet in there, so they're tight. I'll have to try your test.

[Chef23]

@ScarletArrow you need to run the bottom tight and the top looser. I feel that gives better control anyway.

 

What size is your foot. I am in the 2011 Strada the one without the flap over the foot and I have a 10.5 foot in a size 10 boot. When I heat formed the liner I made a toe cap out of paper towels that I taped to my foot then I cut the toe off a sock and put that on and put another sock on. This creates some more toe space in the molding. I do like to feel the front of the liner with my toe though kind of like the way a ski boot or ice skate fits.

 

I can definitely see having a too big bladder impacting release but I definitely think running the bottom loose and the top tight would cause problems as well.

[gsm_peter]

Sorry for high jac the thread with same question about the Radar Vector boot.

Are they more or less safe then Strada or Reflex?

 

@adam

I am really sorry to read about yor injury.

Thanks for sharing with us.

I really hope for a fast recovery!

Best luck with you rehab training.

I have learned the hard way that rehab should be 100%

If one only invest 95% it will take substansial longer time to get back.

 

Brgds Peter

 

[Razorskier1]

I have skied Strada front and RTP since 2008. I make a point of NOT taking major falls attempting to make extra buoys, but I have taken a few nevertheless. My foot always comes out with the liner on my foot. It takes some getting used to in order tos ski with the binding snug but not tight, but that is the safest way to wear it. Prior to that I wore Animal front and RTP. Same story -- I never got stuck in the binding on a fall.

[cwillygood]

thats why i didnt feel safe in them, i loved how they fit/felt but i wanted to get them super tight every time i ski for more support! I didnt release from them once in my 3 years of using them (2 different sets because my feet grew) I have a fluid motion now, same design as the reflex in the front and a wiley in the back, i feel super safe and every time i have needed to i have been released...just my .02 with the strada boots

[adam]

Got my cast off and an xray. Everything looks good. Should be weight bearing by the end of August when I can start rehab. The only ligament damage was to the PCL, but that can be dealt with through PT fortunately.

 

DanE- I'm not sure. My Front boot is all black while the back boot is a mixture of black and grey or silver. Both have a flap with a lower non elastic lace that I never adjusted. Actually, I'm not sure I would have adjusted them anyway as the bindings felt awesome. I felt like I had really good edge control. IMO any of the Strada boots are infinitely better than the RS-1 boots. I have the RS-1s that I never really used much and was not a fan.

 

ScarletArrow- I agree with a lot of what you listed. I may have considered the 10.5 if it was available. The Strada boots seem to be more true to size that the RS-1s. I usually take 8 pass sets and never had any cramping issues. It felt like they would start cramping if I were to take a 9th or 10th pass though. The fit an finish on the Strada boots are far superior to anything else I've seen. I don't think the perfect and safest bindings are out there and if I found the perfect binding for me, I'm pretty sure the wouldn't be perfect for everyone else. If I could go back in time, I'd modify the front binding so there wasn't any way it couldn't release if the rear one did. Maybe cut down the rear top of the front binding or something like that. From the ankle bone up, there isn't much control lost as I think 99% of the control comes from the front part of the boot that locks down on the top of your foot. As long as the front foot is in the binding completely, you have good front foot edge control. It would be really tough for your front foot to come out without the back one coming out first anyway unless I'm missing something. I guess that would be similar to running a full Reflex binding in the rear and the half Reflex in front except, unlike the Stradas, the Reflex does get a good bit of its edge control from the upper cuffs. Too bad I don't have deep pockets to be able to test ideas out.

[ScarletArrow]

@Chef23 I think it just might be that one off user where it's not going to work.

 

I run a 2011 Strada (no flap) also. Even though I'm on a RTP now, when I started using Stradas I was running doubles and I always felt comfortable with the sizing of my rear binding.

 

In contrast, I could never get comfortable with my front even though I spent hundreds and tried a dozen different combinations - different shells, different liners, et. al.

 

I donned TWO pair of athletic socks over my feet while heat molding - I still couldn't get enough space for the liner to clear my big toe.

 

One day on a whim I grabbed one of @SkiKolb's liners (size 11) and put it into the shell - ahhh...comfort!

 

That's been my solution ever since.

 

About a year later I went to a nice shoe store and they measured each foot and my left (front) was noticeably longer.

 

Yesterday, I did experiment on the dock and tightened the bottom lace all the way tight - I still don't know how anyone would get a foot cramp, but anyway - but I didn't find the right amount of "looseness" for the top so I just went back to how normally did it (it was a tournament after all).

 

Which goes back to my problem, how do you really know unless by trial and error?

 

 

[Chef23]

@ScarletArrow can you pull your foot out of the binding in the water after a set without loosening the top laces? If you can you are probably okay. If you can't then you have a potential issue.

 

I had to build up in front of my toe more than just with the two socks to get a mold that works. I layered a bunch of paper towels then taped them to my foot and put the socks over it.

 

Having one foot bigger than the other is pretty common by up to 1/2 a size. I don't have that big a difference but I am about a 1/4 size difference. In shoes and ski boots for example the right foot is always tighter than the left. I ski LFF and am a 10.5 so I can fit into the 10 Strada. I am not sure I could get my right foot comfortable in that same boot.

[adam]

ScarletArrow- I would test the release of the boots by either the dry land method or while you are in the water grabbing the tip of the ski and pulling the ski off. I would hate to see someone suffer the same injuries as me. If you can't get to the point where you feel comfortable that they will release when needed, I would adjust the tightness or modify the boots until you get to that point, or switch to something else. In over 20 years of skiing, I have never had an injury more sever than an ankle sprain from bindings until now.

[gsm_peter]

Just a thought (maybe stupied)?

 

Would it be safer if the sequence plate had the release function?

Both feets released at the same time but still was keept together?

 

[vtjc]

Adam, I am sorry to hear of your injury. I wish you a quick and full recovery.

I broke and sprained my ankle in Fogman’s and still have lingering effects similar to Horton’s. Pain following walking on uneven ground. I have friends who have broken ankles in, rubber bindings, HO Animal’s and Goode’s as well.

I have been skiing in Strada’s for three seasons without an issue. I think they are the safest option currently available, but not perfect as your injury demonstrates.

 

[SkiKolb]

Peter, I like your idea of a release with radar sequence plate. @vtjc I was over 4 seasons on double stratas until my lisfranc fracture on June 15 this year, and am now out for over six months! Iam going to reflex next yr. when I ski next.

[SkiKolb]

@gsm_peter when are headed down to LaPoint ski park again? Eric

[gsm_peter]

@skikolb.

Eric

Sorry but I have never skied at LaPoint.

Have never water skied in US.

Only in Sweden and twice in Italy.

Currently no plans to come over but that might change =0)

 

Enjoying BoS from Sweden.

(Trying to learn as much as possible)

[ScarletArrow]

@rico i think the hard part is defining exactly what is "loose", "snug", "tight", "too tight", etc.

 

Right now I would say that I run the bottom loose (i.e. no tension at all) and the top snug/tight, so I don't see how I am less likely to release if the bottom is tight and the top is snug?

 

Horton says he runs them tight, you say run them snug - what's the difference? It's all feel and comfort to the user.

 

I think I could stand on the dock and pull my foot out - though I've never tried it. I'll play with it today and post a video for fun.

 

I did take a fall at the previously mentioned tournament this past Thursday around 4 ball - too much weight forward on the offside and ski stopped on me - not quite an OTF, but I was falling forward.

 

My top bungee released and I came out about a 1/3 of the way...which is a typical experience for me in a fall. I was able to push my liner back in the shell for my tow back to the starting dock.