What is your realistic price for a new slalom tug? (v2)

[ToddL]

Expanding upon @Bulldog's survey... adding more granularity and breadth to the choices.

 

With all the talk lately about new boat pricing I am just curious what you ballers THINK the price should be realistically....I know we all want really cheap boats with all the latest options try to keep it as honest as you can.

 

 

[Bulldog]

@ToddL‌ thank you. Your version is much better than the one I screwed up last night. I think most Ballers would agree that the pricing of the 2015 boats is WAY to high. It is going to kill off our sport for sure.

[lakeaustinskier]

I'm realistic. Traditional ski boats are expensive since the market is so small. At the Austin Boat Show there were about 200 boats in the show and only two comp boats (2 Prostars from the same dealer that Todd has already posted the sticker on). The Nautique and Malibu dealers didn't even bother bringing a comp boat to the show.

[GAJ0004]

The Nautique dealer near me does not keep them in stock. I would have to order one if I were buying brand new. I would do that anyway since the next boat I buy will be the last boat I buy. Mine may be old, but it still gets the job done with flying colors. Fewer people will ski behind it because they say the wake is too big, or too hard.

[MISkier]

I would pay $50,000 to $55,000 if it had bimini top, pull up cleats, heater, shower, heated seats (passenger, too), jump seat (if applicable), bow filler cushion (if applicable).

 

For the base boat, trailer, cover - $40,000 to $45,000.

[oldjeep]

I'm putting 65-70K because for me a slalom tug needs to be a V-drive crossover, and I realize they cost more. Although honestly you can't actually buy a new one for 65-70K any more. For a DD ski only boat I'd be at 40K or under because I'd have to own a second boat.

[swc5150]

Agree MIskier, a base tug should top out at $45k. I hate to beat it to death, but I paid for $29,600 for my brand new, '06 196SE. That was the total with a color matched Eagle trailer ($27,600 for the boat alone). I know it was a killer deal, but the fact remains the dealer sold it to me. 9 years later, a stripped 200CB priced out at $59k. That's some wicked inflation friends!

 

So how many fewer DD ski boats are sold now than in years past? I seem to remember about 200 196's being sold each year, with 200's exceeding that (I may be way off though?). I assumed wake boats were picking off high-end stern drive / weekend warrior buyers and not slalom converts as much? Not that my universe is that larger, but I don't personally know anyone who used to run a comp boat that now runs a wake barge.

[dcovington]

here are some facts to consider.

i have been in the boat manufacturing business for over 25 years.

 

the main cost to making a boat is the engine and the the labor, but the components of the boat are a factor as well. the gelcoat,vinyl, and the compression molded plastics are all petroleum based products. over the past 15 years, these products have doubled in price--- twice!!!

 

then, our friends at GM corp., that make all of the blocks that the marine engines use, decide that price. and it s a premium for the marine quality block

----and its not the same block you get from auto zone.

 

then tag on the EPA regulations which started in 08-011 with the catalyzed motors. thank you west coast!

this added about 2500.oo per motor.

 

2013, the EPA decided that we need a system on our gas vents for fumes-they call it diurnal fuel

canisters-this added about 800.00 per boat

 

i ship boats all over the country every day. 900 -1500 miles from a factory is going to run, on average, about 2500.00 in freight. why? permits, wide loads, and length issues in some states.

its a pain believe me. the closer you are to the plant, the less you pay.

 

the price seems to rise annually about 3-10 percent. so you can see why a 2005 model is not priced lake a 2015.

 

 

unfortunately, when a product is petrol based and the oil barrel drops like it has this past quarter, it takes years to see the discount passed on to the consumer in these products used in marine.

 

i want more than anyone for the price of boats to be lower but the reality is, some of the boats

are higher than others due to overhead, build of the quality of materials, and marketing.

 

if we have reached the limit in what people will pay, manufacturers will be forced to engineer a product that will be acceptable in performance but easier and cheaper to build. my opinion is that we are there now! but i didn't expect to see people buying lots on private ski lakes for hundreds of thousands either and then building on them.

 

dc

 

 

 

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

I assume we mean what I would *pay*, not what I believe to be the likeliest price. I understand this means I am not getting a new boat at this time, but if the point of this is to understand what the market could bear for a new boat, what matters is what I'd be willing to pay.

[bigtex2011]

we bought a 2 year old boat with 200 hours for between 40 and 45. love it

[GAJ0004]

@dcovington, your insights have opened my eyes. I knew the EPA would put a squeeze on everything, but it is worse than I thought. Hopefully the drop in oil prices we are seeing will be long term and keep the prices of boats under control.

[6balls]

There is no way in holy schmoley that I'm paying these dollars for a rapidly depreciating piece of recreational equipment with little to no performance or useful life advantage over one that costs half as much in the used market.

[OTF]

I'm with @Than_Bogan for a recreational toy 40k is the max I'd pay on my own. With used boats in the market I could live with something with some use on it for half the price. At the end of the day in my mind it's the skiing I'm buying not the boat.

[Chuck_Dickey]

I travel for work and rent cars almost every week. I see a quality spread and experience the build quality first hand. I'm not going to buy a cheap POS ski boat just because it can pull me down the course. I spend many more hours driving my ski boat than skiing behind it and the build quality matters a lot, to me.

 

I buy a new ski nearly every year and sell my old one, the difference is my cost for using it for a year. Boats should be judged closely to that model. Prices will never come down on quality goods so we have to decide what quality level were willing to accept.

 

I'm a MasterCraft Promo Team member and someone is going to score when they buy my 2014 beauty.

[gregy]

Mid 30k is about as much as I could justify spending. But there are people that can afford the new boats. The local Supra dealer told me he has people writing checks for 100k wakeboarding boats on a regular basis. The rest of us just have to wait for the used boats to come down to what we can afford.

 

I was a MC promo member in the late 80s early 90s. My first year was 87 and if I remember right promo cost was about 12k. I remember in the early 90s priced went up pretty fast and were getting over 20K. The economy was slow back then and I was finding it harder and harder to sell 20 something K boat and got out. I thought that was expensive then. At that time I would have never dreamed boat would get to 80K in my lifetime.

[ThisUserNameIsDumb]

It's hard to say that you would realistically only pay in the 40k range, since none exist! I guess my next question for this thread is:

 

What features do you HAVE to have in your slalom tug?

[ToddL]

Must have?

Slalom-friendly and proven hull, ZO engine, Pylon, windshield, drivers seat, steering wheel and throttle, bench passenger seat, engine cover, and some ballast weight positioned to make the boat ride like the more expensive one. Pretty bare bones. Maybe even delete the seats and just have some velcro in the floor so that we can secure lawn chairs where needed. Poor-man's trim line for sure. Do you think that would be under $40k?

[ThisUserNameIsDumb]

@toddL We might be getting close with that!

 

[dcovington]

Another way view it.

 

maybe skiers need to look at the Cost of Ownership and the quality in regards to the return on using the boat for a period of time??? if you buy a boat and use to for 300-500 hours, there will be a cost assigned to that use?? what that price is will have a bearing on the quality of the build. the best built boats will last longer and have better resale than the ones that are bear bones with no real warranty or factory behind it.

 

if it cost you 25k, over a period of time, to ski behind a boat you will get every weekend at your local tournament, i don't see this as an issue? you have to justify the boat cost per month like the light bill in your house? having the latest hull for any brand is the advantage you will have over the other guy that is skiing on a retired hull bottom. nautique is getting ready to replace the 200 hull again. they will get new skiers upgrading immediately, and it will be a buyers market for those skiers that want a 200 coming out of a 196!

 

the posts above have proven there is a used market from 25-50k depending on the boat and how old it is?

 

i don't like spending 60k for a new truck, but when i do, i put 100k on it in 3-4 years and its worth about 25k plus. that is just what it cost to run it and i am ok with that.

 

do i think the boats are getting too high? yes, but if the cost of a bouy goes from 16.00 to 50.00

next year, are we going to start skiing around milk jugs again?????

 

not likely.

 

donny covington

 

 

[oldjeep]

@ThisUserNameIsDumb‌ - one exists - Gekko GTS20 $34K on a trailer with ZO according to another thread.

-

@dcovington‌ - 60K for a truck? Wow, I could have bought 2 of my current trucks for that (new). On trucks (and boats) the things that really drive depreciation are all of the gizmos that you pay through the nose for but don't mean much at resale time.

[RAWSki]

@MISkier‌ You just described spec'd and exactly priced the CP!

[dcovington]

2015 chevy 3500 crew cab with duramax-60k give or take--since the gekko is not approved for tournaments--its not an option for most skiers who ski every weekend tournaments. most people want to train on the same boats or like, that they will get o the weekend at an event.

 

what is the resale for a 3-4 year old gekko with 300 hours or more???

[oldjeep]

@dcovington‌ - no idea, never seen a used one for sale. I believe that in another thread it was said that Gekko was planning on getting at least one of the boats certified. But it brings up an interesting mentality - buying things with an eye towards resale. I guess if you change boats like you change underwear that is an issue. I got 9 years out of the last boat (a bayliner that I sold for $3000 less than I paid for it new) and I expect to get at least that long out of the 2 year old VTX I bought last year.

[Than_Bogan]

Cost of ownership is absolutely the way to think about it, but I believe that has substantially changed as well. I bought my first boat not THAT long ago (1997) for $30k and sold it 8 years later for $18k. Less than $1500 per year cost of ownership. My second boat (2005) was about $40k and I sold it 8 years later for $22.5. A bit over $2000 per year cost of ownership. If I were to buy a new boat now, for e.g. $75k, what am I going to be looking at eight years from now? At that point I'll be trying to sell it to guys like on this thread, who want to pay no more than $40k. That could work out to over $4000 per year cost of ownership.

 

A quality used boat with ZO can have a dramatically lower cost of ownership. Until these come a little closer together, I can't come close to justifying a new boat. The actual value to me of a new boat is only a little higher than a used one, so the cost of ownership can only be a little higher for me to consider it.

 

I kinda hate the word "afford." Can I afford an $80k boat? Yes. Does it bring me value comensurate to its cost of ownership? No.

[MISkier]

@RAWSki‌, is that for a new CP? Because I am hearing/seeing here that the new boats can't be built for that price. So, either that isn't new or it will snap in half after a month or Centurion is selling them at a loss to get market share/exposure.

[kstateskier]

This past summer I struggled with the increasing price of boats. I was in the market but there was a huge gap in 2004 - 2010 boat market (essentially under $30K slalom boats). Presumably because those owners with boats of that age are holding onto them for the same reason I would.

 

I had $20K - $25K in cash to spend towards a boat and even though I don't have any vehicle payments I didn't want to borrow to buy a newer boat and saddle myself with a $350 - $400 payment for a boat that isn't used 12 months a year.

 

My options were to buy an older boat and buy it with cash or buy a newer boat and take on the payments.

 

I ultimately found an earlier model LXI that I was able to buy outright. But the idea of taking all my backup cash and dumping it as a downpayment on a new boat AND having an additional $300 - $400 payment/mo didn't seem reasonable. Not because I couldn't afford to do so, but more because I was spending more money to own that boat for a fixed period of time and from the end of the rope or the driver seat there wasn't THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE.

 

Sure the new boats are nice, but having just took a set 2 days ago behind a 2015 CC 200 - I can tell you it wasn't $4800 (annually) better than the same end of the rope behind my paid for LXI!

[swc5150]

Looking at poll numbers, 56% won't spend over $50k...and BOS members must make up a decent proportion of DD boat sales? This doesn't bode well for promo members in the near future I'm guessing? As the spread between what a promo member has to pay and what the boat will sell for widens, this could be a death spiral for DD boats at some point soon. Obviously it's still winter, but there's quite a large inventory just on SIA right now. Plus, some of the asking prices are quite good, and still the boats haven't been snatched up. I hope I'm wrong, and there are still enough new buyers to keep DD boats in the product lines.

[ThePantsManCan]

I could pay off the rest of my mortgage for the cost of that new ProStar on the Boat Shows thread. I'm 32, and even if the house was paid, I still would not spend 80k for new boat. At 62, I would not spend 80k for a new boat... even if 80k was worth 40k by then.

 

In ten years, I'll pick up a beautiful CC200 or ProStar for 25K. For now, my Dirt Cheap, Malibu Echelon will keep yanking my arms out of their sockets just fine thank you!

[BK]

@swc5150‌ waaay too early to make the claim that this is representative of the market. Only 50ish votes total, and it'd be important to know how many have actually bought a new boat in the near term (2010?) market to know whether or not they're a qualified segment (REAL typical buyers, not promos, or complainers and tire kickers...no offense meant). It's silly to get so worked up about it. The market will dictate what the co's do, not this thread. And the co's will adjust accordingly. Buy new if the deal suits you, or buy used.

The Austin boat show had two Prostars, not only the one @ToddL‌ mentioned that started the discussion. And the one not mentioned was $8K less than what Todd showed. But that wouldn't be as controversial to show would it? I was less impressed about the stickers, because I know that's not what you'll pay...and was much more impressed that this sole dealer (Boat Town) brought TWO Prostars; I haven't seen that at the Austin show in years. Good for them, and us!

[Than_Bogan]

@BK That *is* great news.

 

And if it turns out there are tons of people out there willing to pay 60-80k for single-purpose ski boats, then the cost of ownership could be quite reasonable: Pay 70k now, sell for 55k after 8-10 years. I am finding that VERY hard to imagine, but hopefully I'm wrong.

 

Certainly the market will dictate things, not this thread. But I'm concerned that the companies are building the "wrong" thing: something with bells and whistles that a pure 3-event skier isn't willing to pay for, but that isn't really a desirable boat for a generalist. And then if they can't sell those, they might entirely abandon us, which would REALLY SUCK. Again, hopefully I'm wrong.

 

So I see the potential value of this thread being to spark some thinking by some boat industry folks about how they can continue to serve our market.

[swc5150]

I hope you're right @BK, but I didn't make a claim, it was a "I hope not" statement. But when the DD market share is about 400 boats per year or so, 56 people (target market) is not an insignificant number.

[Dacon62]

It's all about the deal. In '09 I found a well optioned '08 Malibu VTX with diamond hull demo with 27 hours on it. Picked it up for $55,500 CAD. I had a feeling this would be a desirable model down the road and hold it's value. Got 4.5 seasons out of it and sold it for $50,000 CAD.

Very reasonable cost of ownership. After that picked up a decently optioned (Zero off, heater, Bimini, tandem trailer, depth finder, cover) new '13 malibu TXi in early fall of '13 that the dealer sold for $54,000 CAD. Will use it for a few years and may be able to sell it for $45,000 CAD. So let's say 8 years of boating cost me $14,500 in depreciation costs. That's less than $2,000/year and I have had zero repair costs. Something that usually does not happen as you get into older model year boats. And we all know that the darn thing will crap out while on vacation with the family. Then you spend your precious time on repairs. No thanks...don't need that stress. Yes, I have had a fair bit of cash "tied up" in a boat but I have been able to experience current technology with what I consider to be reasonable annual costs and zero repair worries.

[aupatking]

I get that inflation has hit us all, but I've got to say that 50 G's is no entry level boat. Hell, that's 20 grand more than an entry level BMW. Allot more fun, but that's not the same ballpark, it's a whole different sport. Anything in the $50,000 range should be the Mapple version, or some equal level trim. The fact that you can't get in a boat that even qualifies for tournament skiing for 60k is 85% of the reason or sport has no viable grass roots. I like the idea for tournaments, but when I'm skiing behind a $20,000 boat that would get laughed off a tournament lake, it says all that needs to be said.

And I'm over-inflating the value of my 98 Nautique, but she's fricken gorgeous and pulls me beyond my capabilities anyway.

[ToddL]

@BK - Yes, statistical significance is based upon sample size compared to population size and is often stated in terms of degree of error (+/-). So, not knowing the intended population size of this topic, we can't calculate significance. However, we can say that the current results are accurate within +/- some unknown value. That said, if the results suggest a middle value in the $40's, then that is accurate +/- some amount. Maybe that degree of error is $20k, maybe it is $10k, who knows. But considering those hypothetical examples, the accurate value is somewhere between $20-60k. Again, only hypothetical since we don't know populations size.

 

There is also something called "face validity" - do the results makes sense / ring true? To me, they seem to match about what most people really want to pay for a boat.

[mellig]

$50K - $55K base price with additional features on time seems very reasonable considering the expected quality and compared to general market in place for other boat formats. What amazes me is the idea of paying $100K+ for general lake cruisers like Cobalts, etc. that have limited purpose over tubing, picnicking, and swimming platform!

[swc5150]

I've now seen it all...a $70k pontoon boat at our local boat show on "discount".

[The_MS]

There is good money to be made selling pontoons.

[Jody_Seal]

Define a real slalom tug!

[DmaxJC_ski]

I was at a local dealer before the holidays, although not a slalom tug, but I witnessed a fella dealing on a G23 and the price was in the neighborhood of $150+...... Thousand that is.

[ToddL]

@Jody_Seal see my Jan 14th post above "Must Have?" That's the bare minimum. Without that, it isn't a slalom tug in my book.

[ToddL]

I googled and found this: http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

 

Put in 1984 and $20.0k, equates to almost $45.5k in 2014 dollars

Put in 1984 and $25.0k, equates to almost $56.8k in 2014 dollars

Put in 1984 and $30.0k, equates to almost $68.2k in 2014 dollars

Put in 1984 and $35.0k, equates to almost $79.6k in 2014 dollars

 

So, for those who were buying new boats in 1984, what was the typical new price? How does that equate to today's equivalent given inflation?

 

[dchristman]

@toddl I believe the going price in 1984 was about $13k. I paid $10k for a promo 1983 American Skier.

[MISkier]

@ToddL, I recall a promo 1993 MasterCraft 190 for sale at $16,000 that year.

[ForrestGump]

@DmaxJC_ski You'd be surprised how many people walk in and plonk down $150 large for those G23s and $160 large for the G25 and pay cash. Well over 50% pay cash.

[dcovington]

Really sounds like more people should chime in that have actually bought a new boat in the past 2 years!

I don't know of any product that is manufactured in the US that has not seen some real price increase over the past 10 years. The boating industry is one of the last true American trades that the over seas markets have not figured out hôw to duplicate for the same money. This conversation started on a pic of an mc that was heàvily loàded and on display at a show. Doesn't mean that is what everyone charges and doesn't mean that is the price for every mc or any other tug. Everyone clearly has there market and price threshold they would like to be in. Given the 600-700 new tournament boats manufactured every year, I don't think we are In a situation that the manufacturers are in a worry about the sales right now and the price ceiling. Could be soon?

We have a strong used market now. My new Mastercraft will run about 65k and I have a customer picking colors that wants it when we are done. Given inflation and what it takes to be a real three event tug, so it takes the latest tech in catalyzed motors, hull design, interior, GPS cruise with digital throttle, and a manufacturer backing the product, this is my idea of what it takes to be a real tug.

 

We should be lucky they are still making tournament dd boats. The margins are worse for dealers and it shows that some of the largest inboard dealers dont even stock or try to sell dd boats. New boats will sell,

But the market for used will continue to be strong. Cudos to Boat town in Austin for supporting skiing and the Prostar program. They were are great sponsor for US nationals and I'm glad they are stocking tournament boats. By the way--I talked to Clayton Raven from Boat Town and the Prostar that everyone is so shocked at sold-for less than 80 but we now have another new tournament boat for most of you to look for on used market in 'a few years.

 

Donny Covington

[swc5150]

600-700 tournament direct drives produced per year seems like a really number? I would've guessed 400-450? Shane, do you know approx what's being produced? Got me curious.

 

And my brother's 2012 200team OB, loaded, was under $60k out the door. So $65k out the door on a '15 Prostar seems about right. Obviously MSRP should never close to the sale price.

[ForrestGump]

@dcovington You're absolutely right. I posted this in another thread, but this is a good place for it also. I bought a brand new F250 Crewcab Powerstroke on Christmas Eve 2002 for $32k. On Christmas Eve this year I went and priced out that same exact truck at $55K, which included $10k in rebates, incentives, etc. That far outtracks the rate of inflation, just as the boats have. Sure, the new truck has way more stuff standard. Just as the new boats have way more features. But honestly, no one wants to drive a stripped vehicle so that's what drives the market.

[Chef23]

I don't know what the price should be because i don't understand the underlying cost structure. I do think $80K for a new 3 event boat is a lot but I don't understand how the cost of the materials has increased. I posted in another thread that a $32.5K boat at 3% should be about 46K. There are a lot more features on the new boats and they are a larger so I would expect there to be increased material costs. @ShaneH indicated that the cost of materials for a boat has outpaced inflation costs over that time as he indicated has the cost of labor.

 

I can't see myself buying a new boat for the next few years due to school expenses so I am not a good reference. I am so far off the curve with a 2002 boat that it costs me too much right now to get back on it.

[The_MS]

The world needs ditch diggers to.

[ToddL]

@dcovington - I want to thank you for sharing your knowledge on this subject. It is very helpful and valuable for the community.

 

I have some questions though (for you or any others who have insight on this). If new loaded boats are going to cost what they are going to cost, and if the bulk of the skiers are getting priced out of that budget; then why not produce a Budget model?

 

I know boat manufacturers attention is focused on wake boats, and product lines with large markets, better margins, and projected growth and market share opportunities. I get that.

 

Still, we all seem to have some level of concern about the "cost of entry" to our sport and the perceived decline of participation. Those are likely associated to some degree. As such, the sport should be asking for a Budget option to address this.

 

What do you think the following boat's retail price should be:

Hull from a current or former AWSA approved boat

Current/compliant engine & drive train

ZO

1-color Gel coat

No carpet

Budget vinyl upholstery

basic/cost effective dash

basic/cost effective platform

 

In other words, what do you think the absolutely most affordable, yet baseline functional 3ev boat could retail for?