Need Advice on Digging the Second Phase of my Lake

[T-fromTO]

I bought 75 acres of farmland in the Niagara region of Ontario last spring with a very large pond on it, 400'x1000', that is oriented north/south. I had an extension dug on it last June which was the first phase. The extension was 160' wide and 300' long. Now I am ready to dig the second phase, another 500' bringing the length of the lake to approximately 1800'.

 

My question is, should I do a turn island at the north end? If so, how wide do I make it and how many feet should it be from shore?

 

Side note, we realized 160' is too narrow and we are digging the second phase 180' and widening the part from the first phase.

 

Here is a drawing of the relevant part of the site. The curvy end is the north end and where I am considering putting the turn island. I will mention that the soil is heavy clay. The second photo shows the 300'x160' extension that was dug last spring. And yes, we did ski on it last summer with an overlapping 8 and no exit gates.

 

Feel free to ask me any other questions as I can talk about my lake all day and when this thing is done I will consider it the crowning achievement of my life!

 

 

 

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[RichardDoane]

@T-fromTO‌ way cool on your project, all of the lakes in Washington state are built with turn islands so I'm biased of course, they should be as large as possible IMO and properly off-set for the best alignment for the boat entering the course. Somebody with google maps skill should be able to take satellite pictures of known good sites and get measurements

[Edbrazil]

Good idea to widen. I like to see more like 200' for SL sites. Presumably, you aren't going to

have jumping there. I have seen cases where the site is narrow, but they scallop out the areas

near the turn buoys.

Many opinions about turn islands. They do put a premium on good driving, to keep both boat

and skier off shore and not grounding on the island.

Got an address or GPS coordinates for the site? Although, if you have been modifying it, the

modifications may not show up yet on Google Earth.

[MISkier]

Look at Ultimate Ski Lake in Estero, FL. It has islands that are offset. We never used the islands, so they were not a problem for us. But, they were there if we ever wanted them. Perfect setup.

[lpskier]

I am no engineer, but as a skier and driver my feeling is that islands cause more skier and driver anxiety than they are worth. I think the shorter your site, the more an island adds, but at 1800 feet, you should have enough room to lock in speed control before the 55's. Of course if you can squeak out another 100-200 feet of length, with maybe a little extra width at the drop areas, I would. Also, don't screw up your drop area with a standpipe that must be avoided by boat and skier.

 

A real consideration is who will be skiing. If you have children or old dudes that ski long and slow, it is a challange to keep them off the islands, especially if they are small and tight. The challange presents both to skier and driver. Even good skiers can go in the mud. Saw it happen in Nationals at Bakersfield. Plus, if it is windy, the boat can get blown toward the island while your skier is set down, limiting your navigable area and creating more driver work to stay out of trouble.

 

My favorite ski lake, Hidden Pass in Penfield, NY has perfect islands. At about 2400 feet, they never use the islands unless they are spinning.

 

I would prefer an eight ball course to small tight islands as a short lake solution. Said differently, if you build islands, build them as big as you can. If length is a problem, consider only one island if you can, reducing problems by 50%.

[T-fromTO]

Some gratuitous photos.

 

[T-fromTO]

I don't know how to find the Google earth coordinates, but the address is 3986 Yager Rd. Port Colborne Ontario. The photo does not show the modifications but one can clearly see the existing pond and the field to the north where we are doing the extension.

 

The pond was dug in the seventies for the fill to build a nearby overpass. It is roughly 8 ft. deep.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I prefer turn islands. Especially on a short lake where you have to spin in, they really prevent the downcourse rollers that will be inevitable without them. You can have small islands with a large space to turn to give drivers and skiers margin. I've seen really big islands and small channels that could be nerve racking for less experienced. There really aren't any hard rules on island or channel size.

 

I think the main reason many people dislike them is that if they aren't done properly, they will erode very quickly and disappear - ending up with a lot of extra dirt at the end of the lake.

 

If you do decide to put them in, go overboard on erosion control. Probably the most effective method I've seen is cement bags covering from several feet below the water line to several feet above. Its a good idea to put plastic or fabric underneath the cement or the dirt can actually erode from water getting between the bags.

 

Looks like a fun project!

[T-fromTO]

From what I understand, clay will not erode as much as other materials. This clay soil is so heavy you could practically throw it on a pottery wheel and make a vase out of it! I will consider the cement bags though.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

True, clay is much better than other types of dirt, but will still erode. My lake has a very high clay content and the banks still erode. A cheaper, easier and I think better looking method would be to use rip-rap rock (6-12" diameter) and still use a plastic barrier underneath. Cheap insurance against the island disappearing.

[Horton]

it's a pretty simple question. If you're going to ever spin you want Islands. if you're almost always going to stop at each end you don't need islands

[The_MS]

Turn islands give you a chance to pull your shorts up, wipe your face and settle in.

[Texas6]

I can tell you, being on a lake with no islands, Horton is dead-on....we will spin the little guys 25mph and under, because by the time they get back in the course, most of the rollers are gone....the adults drop EVERY time at each end. The lack of islands dictates the practice. And to be honest, it doesn't bother me at all to drop and get back up, but having the option would be nice.

[Chef23]

Very cool that you are building a lake. I don't have a strong opinion on the island issue. I have skied at the Ultimate Ski Lake in FL and it I think it is much wider than you are looking at (they have a jump) but the offset islands work. Generally when I have skied there we drop and don't use the islands but I have driven around them with trickers and people that spin.

 

Islands in tight spaces freak me out a little as both a driver and a skier so I would be careful on that front. Pangaea outside of Albany has two lakes without islands and the slalom skiers drop at each end and the lakes ski great. HiddenPass is a great place with islands but I don't think I have ever been around them the only time I skied there we dropped but that is a long wider lake with a jump also.

[Wolfeie]

I agree, turn Islands make a short lake feel much longer. You have more time to get up to speed and it gives the skier more time to get situated on the ski. One of the lakes near us has no Islands and they seem to take much more time to get situated and the skier looks rushed. Turn

Islands are no big deal with todays comp boats, they become automatic after awhile. With newbe skiers you turn in front of the Islands until they are more comfortable. The above picture is perfect for dog-legged Islands. With a short lake you want to come out of the turn set up for the course. Our shortest lake has two extreme dog-leggs which makes driving much more difficult.

[RichardDoane]

if you mapquest the address, then click on the "satellite" view button in the top right, it gives a good overview picture, cool site !

[T-fromTO]

Thanks @scotchipman for posting the Google earth map, I was hoping someone would do that for me! So I am digging north into the field to get the other 800'. I have another 1000' into the bush to the south but that is environmentally protected so I am stuck with 1800' for now.

 

I am hoping to run a club/school there eventually so there will be kids and beginners that need to spin as opposed to dropping at each end. I would be doing one turn island, at the north end only.

 

It's good that I am getting this feedback because I personally have very little experience skiing on lakes with turn islands.

[T-fromTO]

Here is a closer look at the drawing I am working on. I put about 60 feet between the island and the shore. The island is about 40' in diameter. Should I go smaller on the island and larger on the channel?

 

[DmaxJC_ski]

Do you know roughly the yardage or cubic meters of dirt you have and will move total?

[ntx]

I have seen man made fiberglass turn islands that have Styrofoam under them for flotation. Never have to worry about erosion. That way they are removable if you don't like them. Work perfect and you can use a smaller size.

[T-fromTO]

@DmaxJC_ski I have no idea, but it's a lot! I am going 6 feet deep for this section. There is a local speedway that is paying an excavating company to take away the massive pile of dirt from the digging of the first phase as well as what is coming out of the new dig for a new track that they are building. I'm letting them have the dirt for free. They are starting next week. They are not the same company I used for the 1st phase but will use them for the second phase as they will already be on site for the speedway and the guy was quite eager for the work.

 

Here is my pile of dirt from the dig last spring. Could not fit the whole thing in the frame! I can't believe I just posted a picture of a pile of dirt!!

 

 

[T-fromTO]

@efw My boyfriend is not a fan of turn islands but realizes that we sort of need one on this lake. He's never paid much attention to their configuration and construction so he is not much help this time.

[The_MS]

Are they doing the dig also or are they just picking up the dirt? Nice looking pile of dirt.

[T-fromTO]

@MS They contacted me to pick up the dirt and then asked to quote on the job so I'm giving them the work.

 

On a side note, just because I love talking about my lake, I will mention that all I needed from the city for this project was a topsoil removal permit for $100!

[The_MS]

Canada Rocks. You will love the N-S layout that will allow you to ski without welding goggles every afternoon.

[T-fromTO]

@scotchipman I posted a drawing where is shows that the lake widens out from 175 to 225 at the end and the potential location of the turn island. I tried to put as many dimensions as possible. How does it look to you? Also, I may be dumb, but 100' is the sum of what?

[Andre]

Good luck with the built Teresa!

Looking great so far!

Nice site to hold the Nationals in the future!!! ;)

How far from Toronto is it?

[Edbrazil]

Noting the above comment about Nationals:

Presumably no plans to ever have jumping there? More width is needed for jumping, ideally

90 meters, although that can be done with shore cutout(s) for the countercut and/or passing zone. Plenty of sites with under 90m, but I wouldn't go under 80m (effectively).

[Steven_Haines]

@T-fromTO‌, if you look at the thread about Bell Aqua #3 back from the dead, there's a video that shows the correct way to do islands! Just my opinion. ...Islands are essential to a smaller lake. In essence, they make the lake longer, plus they really reduce back wash! If you decide to do them, do what @Bruce_Butterfield‌ said about the underlayment below your rip rap and OVER DO IT on the rip rap! You're better off doing it right the first time! I've been involved in 3 lake projects and have enjoyed every moment of them! Don't get in a rush and don't do anything half assed! You'll pay for it later! Mostly, enjoy yourself! Looking back, these will be some of the best day's of your life!

[bishop8950]

1,800" and overlapping 8 buoy you should be able to go straight in if you want. If you want to spin and run 6 buoys you should have islands. If you have islands, you should rock them. Even clay will be a mess in time.

 

Openlanders Lake in Lawton MI is 1800 ft, they have islands, the set up is quick especially for 36mph but its an epic site and skis great. If I were you I would take this route.

[Skoot1123]

@T-fromTO‌ I have seen 40 turn islands with 100 feet between the banks. That is pretty tight. Our lake has 100' turn islands and about 105' between the banks. All about perspective. Might be easier with more width for beginners.

[ntx]

Something to keep in mind. With the newer bigger boats without a bigger motor 36MPH can be a challenge in less than 2000 feet. What worked with a nautique 196 does not work with the 200. The same can be said about the pro star. We are at 2150 feet. Straight in with a 200 at 36 and three people in the boat you are not to speed at the 55's. With two people in the boat barely by the 55's 1800 will require a spin.

[T-fromTO]

Thanks for all the input guys! My mind is pretty made up about putting in the turn island although I am a little afraid of the extra cost. But I really should do it now and do it right.

 

Thanks @scotchipman for taking the time to do that drawing. I will do something pretty close to what you are suggesting. I just looked up 5 different sites with turn islands on Google earth and measured the channels and they go from 80-150'. Except for Jack Travers middle lake where the channel is only 45 feet! I was there to watch Senior Worlds and it was startling to see the boat and skier go through there so close to shore.

 

@andre The site is exactly 1 1/2 hours from Toronto. It is only about 1/2 an hour from Niagara Falls and Buffalo NY. I don't think I will be able to get a jump in there, so no Nationals but I do hope to host slalom only tournaments. The site is still very raw, it was a soya been field less than 8 months ago, but I have put my name in for the Ontario Season Finale for next September.

[eleeski]

Turn islands suck! Does another Canadian slalom skier have to die by turn island? (Yes it really happened and the lake owners lost the lawsuit.)

 

Okeheelee has no islands - and spectacular conditions. If the site of more US National championships than anywhere else doesn't need islands than neither do you.

 

Clay will erode to a wall that is a source of rollers. Break out the wallet for fancy rock to deal with it. Doesn't rock hurt when you hit it? Rip rap is downright dangerous. And my wife hit the island - at Regionals (so she's a skilled experienced skier - she even held an area record!). After the islands are done, you need to maintain them (where do you find an amphibious mower?).

 

If you want a turn island, put in a couple buoys as a turn reference. Rollers from the turn is a myth in my experience of skiing primarily in island free sites. You can spin in a lake without turn islands but you can't go straight in with an island.

 

The main reason to avoid islands is to make other uses of your lake fun. Tricking and wakeboarding are adversely impacted. Kids and beginners are threatened by the islands. Fish harvests are more difficult. Jumpers run into them. They are a portal to evil dimensions allowing zombies to pee in your lake.

 

Seriously consider your situation. You can spend lots of money to make your lake unfriendly to a huge group of potential users. Your lake becomes much less safe. So @MS‌ has a bit more time to pull down his shorts?

 

Eric

 

Disclaimer; Despite skiing slalom at a Senior World Championships, building 5 lakes with courses and my own skis @Horton‌ won't let me post on advanced topics. Because I like tricks more?

[The_MS]

Yet another reason to bring back the 196 molds.

[Marco]

I completely disagree with Eric on the impact of islands. While they do add additional shoreline to the project, treat them like the rest of the shoreline (good rip rap), and they can be maintenance free. We let the willows grow natural on ours and they look fine.

 

I don't buy the dangerous argument either. The danger of making a tight turn is the potential for a skier to get whipped to the outside onto the shore, away from the island. If you hit the island on the inside, you are typically sinking at very slow speeds. Sure, if you have 2400', don't bother with islands, but at 1800', you need them.

 

At 1800', you are going to need to get up heading away from the course and spin. No islands = rollers down the lake. Our lake is 2000', but at 5700' above sea level, so it skis more like an 1800' lake at sea level. We cannot get up to speed if we go straight in, so spinning is mandatory, whether you drop or not. Most of us (except the kids and elderly) drop every time.

 

Our islands are about 75' in diameter, with about the same width of channel. It was all we could do given the space we have. They work fine, but if you have the room for 100', by all means, do it. It doesn't hurt to move the islands toward the course to get more room on the back side.

 

As far as the clay goes, it will definitely erode, so get plenty of rock on the islands before you fill the lake. We made the mistake of only installing erosion mats the first time, and then had to bring rock and concrete out to the islands after the fact.

 

Building a lake was my crowning achievement. Incredible amount of work, but the payoff is worth it. Good luck!!

[eleeski]

Back in the old days when AWSA was willing to make safety specifications, a 50 foot (maybe it was 15meters) clearance was required for the skier. While that specification is no longer a rule, it's certainly a good guideline. So if your channel around the turn island is 108 feet wide, you have a case that my safety worries aren't warranted. Unless you use jagged rip rap for erosion control then that's always unsafe.

 

I can still have fun (if @Marco‌ will still invite me) in a lake with islands. But Marco's lake is 300' shorter for me as a tricker. If you shift the islands closer it gets even shorter. With my sore hip, getting set up for toes is a challenge in an island free lake. Thankfully, the timer doesn't start until I do so I am not penalized - until I quickly hit the island at the other end.

 

Islands are horrible for trickers. And the zombies will still escape (note that zombie pee is very cold - useful in overheated desert water but for Canadian water?).

 

Eric

 

A year ago I would have considered the 196 the zombie of ski boats. Today I want to bring it back to life - at least it has a wake.

[LeonL]

I look Upon the fact that an island is a cost reducing factor. That is dirt you don't have to move.

[Marco]

@eleeski - Of course you are always welcome to come ski with me. Look me up next time you are in Colorado. I have enjoyed our discussions at the western regionals and last year at nats.

 

My comments above are from only a slalom point of view, so your perspective as a tricker has merit. On our lake, the islands are mostly offset, so you only lose space to the island on one end.

[LeonL]

You may want to look at our my lake. The coordinates are 38.39073 -85.18335. You can see there is an island on one end and a floating boat house on the other that is used as an island. The lake is 2050' straight through the course from dirt to dirt. I don't feel that we could effectively ski without the island(s). If you look closely you can see the course and how it's laid out.

[buoyboy1]

Definitely do the turn islands especially if the lake is only 1800'. Also, keep the top of the island only 12" or so above the water level if you have any muskrats in your area. My islands are 4 or 5 feet higher than my lake and the rats have made Swiss cheese of them. Also, use plenty of rip rap. I also only have 50 feet from the edge of one island to the shore with zero incidents. If you are concerned about someone driving around the island then you sure do not want them pulling you between 8' wide boat guides. My islands are also not offset from the center of the lake. I rotated the course a few degrees which equated to about 25 foot at each end. It allows for an easier setup coming around the island. I also did the slopes of the island at a 1:4 below the water line to allow less of a chance of someone getting into shallow water. Same with the ends of the lake. The shelf of the lake where the course is was done at 1:10 but I wish I had done 1:12 or 1:15. It still washes out and I even waited over a year to allow vegetation to take hold before skiing on it.

[T-fromTO]

So I am going to do a 90' channel with a 40' island. I am only doing one island, as the south end of my lake is a preexisting pond. I specifically went after this property because it already had half a lake on it.

 

I am stuck with an 1800' lake for now even though the property is 2800' long. The other 1000' south of the preexisting pond is environmentally protected. Maybe when the dust has settled from this project I will take on the Conservation Authority for permission to dig a couple hundred more feet into the bush. May be an expensive losing battle though. I will see what my lawyer says, if he thinks it's worth it to try.

 

@eleeski Does zombie pee kill weeds? Because if it does, bring it on!

[eleeski]

Teresa, at least one end of your lake will be tricker friendly! It does beg the question, WTF? If you have one end island free why limit the other end? Different protocols for different ends? If you've already put the island in, I'll shut up. Trivial difference. If not, I hope you save your money - and take up tricking!

 

Wetlands are important. You might have a good case for your lake expansion on environmental grounds. Skiing should be compatable. Wild ponds can ski quite well. (As long as there are no islands.)

 

Zombies introduce the worst invasive algae slime, maggot and insect species!

 

Eric

[DmaxJC_ski]

@T-fromTO‌ if the county/district your lake resides in is like most, they won't even notice if you were to sneak a couple hundred feet extra on there!!! The green behind the ears graduated adolescent that is issuing the permits probably has no clue as to what your even doing! Every year just sneak a few feet extra on and just tell them your doing preventative maintenance, upkeep if you will.... ; )

[T-fromTO]

@DmaxJC_ski I thought about that and may try that in the future. At this early stage I did not want to rock the boat with the city, neighbours etc. I've been very fortunate with the city. No plans, no permits needed, dig this giant ass pond right up to the property line, they don't care. Amazing.

[bigtallweed]

@T-fromTO Sounds like it will be a great ski lake but wrong side of the country. We only have one in B.C. It would be great to get one on Vancouver Island. We can ski year around on the south island. Good luck with your build.

[RichardDoane]

@T-fromTO‌ islands do require some maintenance, but when the rhododendrons are in bloom, it's very cool, come ski with us at the Broho in late May and you can see for yourself, and yes - plenty of rip rap required

 

 

[Dusty]

FWIW- Somewhere in the AWSA rule book I think there is some discussion of a minimum distace of skier to shore of 50 feet. If the skier is in the very center of a channel around an island it needs be about 100 feet wide (edge to edge) then. You can then kind of scale your island size(s) from that. Offset islands do allow spinning and really do keep rollers out of the course. Without islands, the rollers can be mitigated somewhat by careful driving during drops and pull-ups. I have done a lot of skiing on a 1900+ foot lake with small islands. It can work if designed right. I've not skied at a 8 buoy course as suggested on shorter sites but that ought to work as well. As we all know, digging is expensive and end hauling material more so...

[LLUSA]

Put the islands in, make sure they're off set so when the boat comes around the island it lines up for the slalom course. We've done 4 lakes like this wouldn't change.