What is the best type of ski for a 15 offer -- mid-level or high end?

[TallSkinnyGuy]

I recently posted that I had decided to move from a high-end ski (2014 Connelly Prophecy) to a mid-level ski (2015 Radar Senate Alloy) in order to give me a more stable, forgiving platform on which to develop fundamental course skiing skills. I had become tired of the hard falls that I partially attributed to being on a ski that was designed for someone beyond my ability level. My theory was that if I was on a ski that was more stable and forgiving I could focus more on developing proper technique and improve my confidence, thus improving my skills. I was therefore surprised at how many people responded to my post with the opposite experience -- beginning course skiers improving by jumping on a super high performance ski.

 

This poll question therefore assumes a beginning course skier has access to both a mid-level ski like the Senate and a top-level ski like the Prophecy (or Vapor or V-Type or Quest, etc.), so price is not a factor being considered at this point. Rather, if a beginning course skier running 15 off (18.5M) at 28-32 mph and wanting to improve, would you recommend using the mid-level ski or the high performance ski?

[ToddL]

There are definitely two schools of thought... Ski the best gear you can vs. ski gear suitable for your level.

 

I think the first adage is applicable once a skier is competent in the course. Top-of-the-line doesn't have to equate to radical. However, often they are very responsive which can rock a beginner's world a bit. For a true beginner on slalom, I would look for stability, predictability, and somewhat forgiving ski models.

[RazorRoss3]

Probably the mid level but I don't think what is in the water is as important as what the skier is doing on top of it. At that level you just want something that isn't too squirrelly under your feet.

[lcgordon]

Another question if somebody has a mid level ski when would you recommending them changing?

[TallSkinnyGuy]

@lcgordon I'm curious about that, too. I am expecting to take the Senate up to 28 off at 34 mph, but I wonder if I would be better off switching to a high performance ski before that point.

[ALPJr]

Top level ski with a size up in added length if budget is not a concern.

[lcgordon]

@TallSkinnyGuy I am getting into 36mph now and have ran it once. 36 and 34 are a big difference so I may need to before 28off.

[Than_Bogan]

It depends on the details. I think in "most" cases I'd go for the mid-range ski, with the main reason being that I want people to learn at the slowest speed they can tolerate, and mid-level ski usually is more comfortable at such slow speeds.

 

But I wouldn't hesitate to put someone on any of the "historically user-friendly" high-end skis like D3 or Radar if I thought that would suit them.

 

I know VERY little about the current Prophecy, but the one report I did hear made it sound like it was pretty hard to ride with technical flaws. So if that holds true for most, I definitely wouldn't but a beginner on it. I would totally put a beginner on a Denali -- and I just might with my older daughter sometime next season -- but in truth that would be as much to find out what happens as because I'm confident it would work.

[kfennell]

I didnt read the entire post. Yes you should learn on a senate, but by the time you are at 32 mph or so you need to change to an appropriately sized and setup high end ski just not a twitchy one. There is a big difference between a quest or vapor vs a Denali or N1XT.

 

We see a lot of skiers of all levels at SMRR and the ones that progress the fastest start on a BIG ski then when they get to almost their full speed change to a high end ski of the right size and SETUP IS IMPORTANT

[gregy]

Beginner to me is not running the course. Once you get up to running 32mph you could go up. But it depends on the ski like @kfennell says. Also, I'd say if you go to a high end ski and you're on the border of size go up. I'm on a 2015 vapor lithium 67" weight 175lb. This is the easiest ski I've every been on as far as stability. I'm 15off 34 some. Got to 4 ball 22off today. Also depends what your comparing it to. One of my partners was on a 10 year old KD. He went to a used Strada and saw immediate improvement at 28 to 32 mph.

[DefectiveDave]

In my mind, a beginner would be anyone skiing below their maximum boat speed at 15-off or long-line.

 

My reason for recommending a mid-level ski is because they ride a bit higher in the water and the tail sinks less at low speeds. Most people at the beginner level tend to be slower at most points throughout the course, which allows the tail to sink, which then in-turn necessitates tail-riding. In my mind, anything that keeps a beginner skier in a more neutral position is a positive.

 

In my somewhat limited experience the mid-level skis are also smoother and more forgiving. I've also heard that many are very serviceable into shorter line lengths (up to maybe 35-off). I just think they are a better, and more affordable, platform on which to learn the sport.

 

In the end, while I think that a beginner might learn a little faster on an intermediate ski, I have no direct proof. I think a motivated beginner will make great progress no matter what ski they choose. However, I'm fairly confident that they will be more consistent and have more fun out on the water with a mid-level ski.

[Orlando76]

You really need a third option, as I think it depends on the skier. As mentioned before, in my mind a beginner isn't running the course and maybe buy a high end course ski but a lil larger.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

It seems like a high end course ski that is a little longer would handle the slower speeds better than a shorter ski but will still be not as stable and forgiving as a mid-level ski. That is really what this poll/thread is about -- is skill development enhanced better with a mid-level ski that is more stable and forgiving or with a high-level ski that provides higher performance (faster, etc.). It seems likely that there would be unique situations but what would be best for the average developing skier?

 

Personally, I can consistently run -15/28 mph and most of the time run -15/30 mph. I can usually get deep into -15/32 mph and have run it once but am not even close to feeling like I could try 34 mph. My goal is to someday run a full pass at -28/34 mph. Am I more likely to reach that goal more quickly by using a stable, forgiving mid-level ski like the Senate Alloy or by using a fast, nimble high end ski?

[mopowpow]

Years ago I learned to ski the course on an HO Burner, it allowed me to slow the boat down more than a conventional sized ski. I did have trouble running anything faster than 30 mph on it. When I was ready to try 32 mph on a more frequent basis, I went to a forgiving ski - D3.

[slow]

I learned on a Phantom Truth. I took 5 years off my life

[Waternut]

I recommend a mid-level ski to anyone getting in the sport but honestly that's not what I did. I stayed with high-end ski's from 28mph, 15off to 34mph, 35off so take this with a grain of salt.

 

Ultimately, I don't think it matters what ski you're on so long as it's setup and appropriately sized for what you're doing. If you're on the mid-upper weight limit of a 36mph ski and you're still working your way up to speed, you should be going up an extra size to compensate. I realize money is no option to the original poster but it really comes down to how often you plan to buy a different ski. I've owned 7 ski's in the last 4-5 years and all were high end ski's with the exception of my first one which was too small but all were the appropriate size for the time at which they were purchased.

[chris55]

I definitly recommend a mid-level at the begining just to get the right stance and the feeling. The when feeling comfy at 32mph I will suggest a change.

[Chef23]

I think the key is having enough support for running slow speeds when learning in the course. If you are running a high end speed of the right size to run 34 or 36 mph it likely won't have enough support to make mistakes on at 28 mph. I high end ski in a bigger size or a mid range ski will have more support at the slower speeds and won't tend to dump you if you make mistakes as quickly.

 

I would tend to agree with the folks that say when you hit max speed it might be time to look at a higher end ski. That said a ski like the Senate will be provide more support at 28 mph but still is very capable of running 34 mph. I ran 34/28 on the Burner that someone referenced above but I was returning to skiing and had run 36/32 when I was younger on old school skis. For most people progressing I think a ski as wide as a Burner would have problems over 30 mph.

[aupatking]

While I say I would put a new course skier on a mid-level ski, top-of-the-line skis in mid and wide formats may accomplish some of what you're after as well. Maintaining characteristics at speed, especially low speed, is the main issue. A ski that is designed specifically for that, will most often outperform one that is not.

Just an example, but when I first started skiing the course after a full year off from an injury and subsequent surgeries, I started back on an extremely user friendly, high-end A1 (High end for its time). At 30 MPH, the ski was set up wrong, and difficult to control. I went ahead and bumped the speed up to 32 and ran my first pass with ease.

I do think there are advantages of width, over just getting a high performance ski at the next length.

[A_B]

The physical size and athletic ability also come into play. Large heavier skier, for sure Senate C, thin athletic guy or gal, top line ski wouldn't be something to hold them back.

[andjules]

I think the poll misses an important dimension: shape vs materials.

 

I think a 26-32mph skier benefits from a mid-level shape - something meant to support the skier at slower speeds. But for course skiers, I think there is significant benefit to getting a fairly stiff layup using higher-end materials.

 

Radar and HO have helped expose this nuance by offering the same shape in different layups. I can't comment to the latest models—maybe the current Senate Alloy is great—but my brother had a plain Senate from a few years back and another one of our ski partners had a Senate C, and the difference was night-and-day. The carbon layup took way less energy and got the skier wider and earlier with significantly less effort. The regular senate felt slow in the course. I've come to the (over-simplified) opinion that non-carbon skis are for free-skiing.

[Bill22]

Connelly has the V and Carbon V. Also they have a ski with the same shape but a little wider (Apex or something).

[brody]

The intermediate ski is designed for an intermediate level skier, they will progress faster without developing bad habits or frustrations. Then progress to a high level ski

[ricski39]

I agree with @brody, the stability that an intermediate ski offers a 15' off level skier is immeasurable in my humble opinion. I know that when I'm in my glide before turning in for my gates my ski will give a little "shimmy" from side to side. High end skis like to be on one edge or the other and are less forgiving than something like a Radar Senate if you're not nice and stacked over your front foot.

[art90notch]

Well, being a beginner skier who just learned to slalom this summer I would say definitely use a mid-level to start running the course. I went from a Theory making a couple balls in the course while maintaining decent form with few bad habits to an A1. I made a few more balls with the A1, but felt my skiing getting worse. I have since moved to an S2 and having only ridden it once, it seems to suit my skill level and style very well. In my mind, there is more value in maintaining/perfecting your technique on a mid-level before moving up to a top line ski. That being said, I'm a beginner and don't really know any better..

[OldboyII]

Sometimes, few rides on high level ski imediatelly shows all bad habbits gained on the more forgiving ski.

[crashman]

I went to a 2014 graphite vapor this year at -15 32-33mph and -22 30mph. I found it to be far more forgiving than either the 2010 (non-carbon) senate or the (non-carbon) Vice that I had been on previously. I didn't have a single hard fall this year on it and I skied a lot this year. Part of it is that I'm getting better but also I think the newer shapes (or at least the Vapor) are becoming more forgiving.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

@crashman Sounds like you are going to need to change your forum name.

[gsm_peter]

I learned on a Theory. Pb 4 at 34 mph.

Changed to the standard Senate and ski much more consistent now.

Have tried more advanced skis but they are holding me back.

[Bill22]

@crashman I am glad to hear you say that the Vapor shape is forgiving for a beginner. I just got a 2015 Vapor lithium, my season is over and I have not been on it yet. I wanted a Graphite closeout or demo but a used lithium was only $50 more (so it was a no brainier). I would not call myself a beginner but an intermediate level, I can make -15@34 and getting into -22.

 

After I ordered it I thought maybe it was more high performance than I was ready for. I was on a 2012 Senate C.

[ALPJr]

One of my ski buds who a mens 8 skier moved to a 2014 HO Superlite TX this year. His average has improved by almost 2 full passes up to a consistent deep 35 off. He's run it 8 to 10 times.

 

[Zman]

So, majority say go with a good mid-level ski. What are some of the more current "best skis" in this category? Specifically, for female skier, about 118lbs, skiing course at 28 MPH, 15 Off hoping to move up on speed.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

@Zman When I was researching this category the skis that seemed to fit were Connelly V, Radar Theory or Senate (Lyric is the women's version of the Senate and is apparently slightly softer), HO TX or maybe CX.

[Horton]

Unfortunately this is not a cut and dry subject. Clearly there is no definition of beginner just like there is no definition of ShortLine. Don’t even try. (Every time I try define the what “shortline skier” means I nearly get tarred and feathered.)

 

So here are a few scattered notes.

 

Besides the true top ends skis no two skis are really designed for the same level skier in mind. The biggest factors are stability and forgiveness. You really can not say that all high end skis are stable or forgiving. My wife skis at 26 mph is on an old Strada and loves it. She is a beginner skier on a high end ski. It is a high end ski that is stable and forgiving at her speed.

 

Being all carbon can mean it is better but not always. I like the Connelly V a lot and Senate C version is better than the all carbon higher end versions. I have an early version of the Radar Lithium Senate that I do not like it as much as the one step down Senate C. The basic Connelly V and the Senate C are 2 of my all time favorite mid level skis. I highly recommend both of them.

 

I would say the V is good through 22 off and the Senate C is good through to 28 off. Does that mean the Radar is a better ski? No. I have run 35 off on both but just because it can be done does not mean that is what the ski is designed for. Both skis have a sweet spot.

 

For a skier working between 26 and 30 mph there is a Connelly that I helped with a few years ago that is freaking awesome. I think they call it a the Aspect(?). It is really really good up to about 30. It is for sure better at 30mph than almost any ski that is designed for 34 mph . It is wider and more stable but then turns awesome.

 

O’Brien has the Synchro and the Siege. The Synchro is a classic that is hard to pigeon hole to a speed or a skier level. I am going to guess through 22 off 34 mph it is pretty darn great. The Siege is the old Sixam 2 shape (a classic) but without all the carbon. My guess is it is just a little less stable than the Synchro so up through 28 off.

 

HO has the CX and the TX. You really can’t beat these skis. I have not personally ridden the TX but everything I have heard is positive. I have a CX Superlite and it is a great ski through 28 or 32 off. This ski goes head to head with the Radar Senate for the last ski you own before you move to a true high end ski.

 

As I am writing this I think the CX might be the ski I will ride for the first few rides I take this winter or next spring. I have not skied in 5 months because of injury and need something that is going to be easy to run 28 off on.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

@Horton In your post above you state that the Connelly V and Senate C are your favorite mid-level skis and then later state that the "Senate is good up to 28 off." Are you still talking about the Senate C here or are you saying the regular Senate is good up to 28 off?

[Horton]

@TallSkinnyGuy Senate C

[Howa1500]

Is there a huge difference between the senate C and the newer senates?

[TallSkinnyGuy]

The Senate C is what Radar used to call the Senate Graphite.

[Bill22]

@Howa1500 The Senate C is a carbon ski with a Strada shape. Senate Graphite is carbon ski with the Vapor shape.

 

Edit: sometimes it's obvious that people use the name Senate C and they are talking about the Graphite...i.e. "I just bought the new Senate C"

[Howa1500]

Does this make the senate C any "better" because it has the strada shape?

[andjules]

@Howa1500 No, it just makes it older: the 'Strada' was Radar's high-end model from about 2010-13, and the 'Vapor' replaced it in 2014. In each case, the 'Senate' has been a model based on the same shape (Strada before 2014, Vapor after), but with an extra .1" of width on each side... just a little wider, with the idea that it would offer more support at slightly slower speeds.

[harddock]

i was putting my son on used high end skis and his performance was improving but very slowly. He is at an age of outgrowing quickly. I switched him to a Senate Alloy which must be better suited for his level. His performance this season in tournaments with hardly any course time improved. He went from a non full pass at 23/15 off through full pulls at 25, 28, and 30. I believe the ski is much more controllable for his level.

[wtrskior]

I think it depends on what type of skier you are (aggressive and athletic or not) what speed you are skiing at as well as age & your size.

 

If you are an aggressive skier trying to get through max speed and need to hammer out some technique issues you should be on a high end tournament ski.

 

If you are not as athletic, older and bigger a wider more forgiving ski like a senate or tx/cx type ski will likely be better.