15off Help/Questions

[lcgordon]

Haha or surfing

[lcgordon]

new video not sure if this link will work. I tried to make it shorter.

Got some skiing in this weekend. First set before this was good water then the wind picked up. So I slowed the boat down to 30 mph i think or maybe it was at 32. Anyways Im trying to do better. My offside turns and pulls are really closed off. I think my pull is so crappy because my turn is so crappy. I cant figure out the turn. I dont think its because im late especially at 30 mph I get out there and im just waiting and waiting it feels like to get to the bouy then I have a crappy turn and have to make a hard onside turn and pull to get back over.

[lcgordon]

 

Shorting link did not work well I tried.

[lcgordon]

[ToddL]

@lcgordon - Once you are in the course you are looking good! However, you are hurting your opportunity for improvement with a narrow gate.

On your gate glide and turn in, you want to be up along side the boat more. (a lot more)

By starting wider and starting your turn a little later, you will cross the entrance gates on an earlier path with space before 1-ball. Also, the wider and free-er you are of the boat's pull when you turn in towards the gates, the more fully you can point your ski across the boat's path before the line loads.

 

At 14 secs, you are at the buoy line, but you are straight up and down.

By the time you get your ski turned at 16 secs, you have lost a lot of that width. Compare this to the 22 sec mark where you are rounding 2-ball. At 22 secs, you are turned, but at buoy width vs. 16 secs. Thus, if you want to enter the course like you are coming out of a 2 ball, then you need to get wider. Just consider how much wider/higher up on the boat you need to be such that when you finish the turn you are at that moment as wide as your current glide...

 

Once the line loads, the ski is set on a trajectory. If the line loads before the ski has completed the turn and is pointed across, then you will lose space before the buoy. (This is also true for turns within the course, BTW.)

 

 

 

 

 

[lcgordon]

Ok Thanks for the response and tips. First question to you is do you think that Im not pulling out far enough or am I wide and then gliding back in before I turn? If its the second one im not really seeing it. I thought when you turned in the most basic explanation is to just fall over.

 

When I try to get wider I either have to pull out harder so there are two things that happen when I do that. I can either start my pull out earlier which seems to make me glide in towards the boat as im slowing down or I pull out at the same time and Im turning in with alot of speed.

 

To my knowledge you cant pull out wider at when doing it at the same time without having to turn in faster. When I do that I also tend to have slack line because I pull so hard to get so wide.

 

If you pull out early you will drift in unless you constantly keep on your outside edge to keep pulling out. Is that ok to do I thought you were not supposed to do that?

 

Btw Im going to get some video coaching set up I just need to get better video. This camera mount is too shaky.

 

Thanks again.

 

Oh and even if I did do my gate perfect I still dont think it would help how uncomfortable and crappy i make my off side turn. If I put my weight back im on the tail of the ski and it wont turn and if I get weight forward the ski hops or almost stops and my upper body keeps going folding up up like a lawn chair and making it impossible to get back in a good position to start my pull. Even at 30 mph there is about a 50 percent chance I make 2 or 4 ball. Last year I was messing with binding position. (which now I know is not a good Idea) When I moved them all the way forward crossing the wake was better but I could not turn on either side at all. If I moved them back I felt like I could turn really well but I would jump the wakes. Im thought I put them somewhere in the middle but Maybe I still have them too far forward.

 

Or I just need to work on form which I know is most of the problem.

[ToddL]

" First question to you is do you think that I'm not pulling out far enough or am I wide and then gliding back in before I turn?"

A little of both, but mostly I think you could come up on the boat more than what I saw in the video. You didn't drift back very much really. Take a moment to read what I wrote about gates in the new thread.

 

Also, watch this:

What how wide up on the boat he gets, yet his glide is long enough to not get slack. I know he is RFF, but it makes the point.

 

Horton is RFF, and I am sure skiing less than 32 MPH was quite a challenge. So, jump ahead to about 30 MPH pass. Watch his gates and how wide/up on the boat he is. It is a good bit more than you currently are doing.

 

 

[lcgordon]

The write up was very helpful thanks. It makes more sense now. I did not know you are supposed to turn in at the same speed as the boat.

 

Honestly I was not even thinking about getting wide. Just trying to be in better form.

[Deep11]

@lcgordon "better form" will achieve more "controlled" height on the boat. Position on the ski / handle connection / and "how" and in "what" direction you lean are the "form" you are seeking. All this happens before you swing out. It is really worthwhile achieving an a,b,c approach to setting yourself up rather than trying to "pull harder". It is difficult to understand until you feel it but "pulling harder" won't swing you higher on the boat (no matter how early you start) The "harder " bit is "resistance" or "drag" and that's what ultimately stops you swinging as high up on the boat as you would like.

[lcgordon]

Got some video coaching from Chet and got a call from him Friday. Was a good chat. Seemed to know his stuff and was nice about what he was saying. Im glad he was nice about saying that I pretty much need to restart my skiing. Was a bit tough to hear just because I have been trying very hard to do everything I can to progress. Skied 6 passes this weekend and the first day it was so weird and skied so bad and Sunday it felt a little better. He basically told me to lock my knees hips and elbows and keep the hands low. Its not perfect I still have a slight bend but its alot better. It is really hard to lean when you are standing straight up over the ski. Every time I lean I am used to dropping my butt to get the ski over onto its edge. I know thats wrong but it is just so confusing out there. I seriously felt like it was my first day skiing.

[ToddL]

Sometimes a major change to an extreme is more effective than inching in the right direction from a distant starting point.

 

Listen to Chet. He will not steer you wrong.

[lcgordon]

I am defiantly listening. I will do to the best of my ability everything he says. I know he is right im not denying that. I want to get better and im probably just as addicted as anybody I just suck haha. Im sure it will take most of this year but im sure by next year I should see big improvements.

[ToddL]

Sometimes the fastest path forward requires a few steps backwards to get back on the right path.

[lcgordon]

Yeah Im hoping that works I have faith.

 

I do have one question. I obviously can keep repeatedly calling or texting him. But he said stand up tall and then when I go to turn in just turn the ski like im doing a side slide on a trick ski. He said dont lean or tip over or what ever else just turn the ski. Whenever I try to do that Its does just that and I end up turning very slow and riding flat all the way out to 1 ball. I mean I feel like you have to lean. I think Im missing the concept.

[ToddL]

Here's my assumption - he is trying to get you to initiate the motion without using leaning as the catalyst.

 

When you ride a bicycle, do you rear back and lean over to initiate the turn? No. You turn the handle bars first. As the bike starts to turn, you balance which means leaning with the turn to counteract the centrifugal forces generated by the turn. You probably don't really think about it, it just happens.

 

So, the instruction from Chet is about the act of initiating the turn on the ski. You then just balance while staying tall. This may mean that you are leaning to the inside of the turn some as a result of the "sideslide" initiation action. This balanced, tall stance then becomes a "lean" away from the boat when the ski has completed the turn and pointed itself across the boat's path. Thus, the lean was a result and not the action.

 

Make sense? Don't lean to turn, turn to lean.

 

[lcgordon]

Thanks for the write up. I understand it better now. Not sure if I can replicate it but I understand it. I think he used the sayin "meeting my boat" or "shaking hands with my boat" not going too hard too fast or not going too little.

 

Thanks again. Hopefully I will get to try some

[lcgordon]

I got another question. When practicing free skiing would it be beneficial to shorten the rope some. If I could get to a spot maybe 28 off where there was a lot less wake I could just worry about form. Right now with trying to ski totally different its is scary again crossing the wake and I think im hesitant.

[elr]

Slide your hips (parallel to the water) in the direction you want to go to initiate a turn. Find the combination of rope length and speed that gives you the best wake for when free skiing.

[Fam-man]

I added a 5' section to a 60' or 15 off rope to get to a smoother section of wake for free skiing. My thoughts were going shorter is faster and more aggressive to get width. By going longer I was able to go a little slower and work on form with an easier wake crossing.

[ToddL]

Mastering Wake Crossings -

Step 1 - remove fear

Step 2 - fix form

Step 3 - good form means no more fear...

 

When coaching a novice slalom skier there is always some fear to crossing the wakes aggressively. However, the very core of slalom course skiing is to get to the other of the boat's path as soon as technically possible. That means aggressive, confident wake crossings are necessary.

 

I try to remove the fear by using drills which minimize or eliminate the potential of falling while cutting through the wakes. The drills can include any of the following:

1) Leaning with perfect form along side the boat trying to maintain a consistent position up along side. This works best with a coach/observer who is giving visual feedback as to body position, weight distribution, stance, etc. adjustments. Each improvement should cause the skier's position to rise up higher on the boat with less effort. Ideal body position is efficient.

2) Shortening the rope or adjusting the boat speed to place the skier's path at the smallest wake. It could be as short as -32. Once the skier has felt a good leaning position along side the boat on both sides (on side - the easy one, and off-side - the harder, twisted up one), then the skier can apply this to crossing the boat's wake. Start very narrow, like on the edge of the white water. Cut cross the boat's path by leaning at a calm but confident level until just off the second wake. Try to maintain one consistent amount of lean all the way across. Don't lean harder past the centerline of the boat's path. Don't lean harder after the second wake to get wide. This drill is NOT about getting wide. This drill is about gaining confidence in wake crossings. Try to be balanced such that the offside crossing is just as fast as the onside. Note: the offside crossing may feel like it takes more effort for a balanced result.

3) Seth's Whips Drills - focus only on the wake crossings, not the turns.

 

With all of the above, the skier will begin to build confidence while using proper form and technique. With proper form and technique the skier will become more confident and aggressive in crossing the wakes.

[Lieutenant Dan]

@lcgordon Regarding Chet's statement "stand up tall and then when [you] go to turn in just turn the ski like [you're] doing a side slide on a trick ski". Check out this video starting at 49 seconds.

 

 

Pretty good visual of what he is talking about. You can see him stand up then rotate his hips first.

[lcgordon]

Thanks for the info. I have gotten to a point where im really not scared anymore. But now everything has changed. I dont want to go out there and go out the front 10 times in a row while im trying to kinda figure things out. I think working on pull out drills and the whip drills will help me feel more comfortable on the ski again.

 

Thanks again

[A_B]

ski with straight arms and focus on keeping the off hand at your outside hip when entering the turns and skiing your hip around to the handle and keeping it there as you lean away into the wakes. if you can focus on this form, a lot of stuff cleans up.

 

when you setup for the gates, it is the same counter rotation before you turn in, and then get the hip to the handle and lean away (not back on the tail). This is the biggest killer of angle - leaning back on the tail for most novice skiers.

 

I even recommend shortening to 28 off and work on rhythm utilizing the same position. the rope is more manageable and you will see exactly where your weak spots are as the boat stands you up...

 

you will see more accomplished skiers pull the handle into their stomach and rotate under it and drop the handle on their hips. I don't recommend this to beginners. Try to keep your arms straight and get your body into position, that is a good foundation to start shortening the rope.

 

[lcgordon]

Thanks everyone for the tips. One thing when I watch the chet video and I watch alot of skiers and im not saying this is wrong but trying to understand why. He is nice and tall and he turns the ski a bit and the first thing he does is drop his butt. I dont understand really. Is it because his knees are so far forward it looks like a crappy stack but it is not? I am not really understanding and alot of skiers do this.

[ToddL]

Chet would probably tell you that he wasn't in perfect form in that example.

FWICT, he moved it somewhat away from the pylon vs. back.

 

There's a ton of old "West Coast" style discussions out there, but basically, it was about extreme counter rotation, moving COM in the direction of travel, and using separation of lower/upper body to force the ski on a more intense angle/edge. Thus, a "West Coast" skier would drop the hips low and away from the boat so as to force the ski onto a deeper edge, but would still be stacked (ankles, hips, handle, shoulders, head lined up at center-line. There is a little bit of that going on. Notice that his knees are in front due to good ankle bend. It is more about that than the hips. Also, in that video, he seems to compress slightly (the hip motion you noticed) and then press with his legs to extend while the load comes on.

 

[lcgordon]

Thanks for that explanation I understand that now. Im just gonna do what he tells me. Or atleaast try my best to. This stuff is hard. If it was easy I would not have to hold a rope to do it.

[lcgordon]

Went out and free skied this morning. 1st day on the new ski. Its an a1. I like it I think. Skied 32off to minimize the wake and concentrate on form. Not sure if I would have even gotten the green balls. But it felt good.

 

[Than_Bogan]

Wow, you're bummin' me out with the drysuit in June! :)

 

But I like your alignment a LOT better in that video. As that position starts to feel "normal," you'll be able to dial up the intensity and be amazed at how much you can leverage, and how much more stable you'll feel.

 

Tremendous progress! Just a warning, though: When you first get back in the course, there's a pretty good chance that it will seem super-hard because you aren't yet comfortable giving maximum intensity in that position. You'll have to resist with every fiber of your being going back to the jack-knife position that used to be home.

[Chef23]

@lcgordon listen to what Chet says he knows what he is doing. On your question about dropping his butt he really isn't dropping his butt he is leaning his whole body away from the boat. This does put his butt closer to the water but it is not the same as crushing and dropping your butt toward the tail of the ski. Your knees will always flex some particularly when you hit the wakes but you need to stay strong and not let them collapse completely.

 

I am not sure I am a fan of practicing at 32 off when free skiing if you aren't getting the width to get out to the buoys. If you are getting enough width I do think there are things to be learned by running shorter line lengths at slower speeds.

[lcgordon]

One guy that was in the boat with me this morning just wore a heater top. Water is not too bad but the air at 5am is about 60. I was in just shorts this weekend. That early in the morning I like being super comfy and dry haha even though its un needed. Anyway thanks for the info and tips.

 

I have felt so uncomfortable skiing since i have tried to make changes it feels like I have never skied before. I needed to take the wake out of the equation and just figure out a bit how It is some what supposed to feel. I know I was not wide ( im not even sure if I would have gotten the green balls) but I think it was good for me to be able to make changes while I am skiing without the risk of an otf. I wont be skiing 32off anymore. I may back it back to 28off to introduce a bit of wake and cut a bit harder. Then back to 15. I ment to drop on the end and go back to 15 but I forgot and just spun. I get why you say your not a fan of shortening if your not getting wide. It makes you really lazy and it completely different to 15off. But I just wanted to feel more comfortable without falling.

 

I really need to work on my pull out and turn in. I should be free skiing atleast once a week for the rest of the summer so I will have time to work on things. I think I had some improvements tho even though it is not really comparable 32 to 15.

 

 

[ToddL]

I guess I shouldn't complain about how hot our 80 degree water felt yesterday...

[lcgordon]

Haha yeah water is still a bit chilly here. Any part of the day I would be in a heater top just did not wanna get wet at 5 am.

[ToddL]

Typically, with an inboard ski boat, -28 is sufficient to get just barely in front of the rooster tail and at the small part of the wakes. Again, short line for wakes is a temporary drill option. Shouldn't be the norm. You will get a "whip" sensation at -28 and shorter that isn't really present at -15. Thus, when you go back to -15, you will feel more tired because you will work harder to generate speed across the boat's path. Still, -28/-32 can be a pathway for building confidence in trusting a properly stacked wake crossing position.

[lcgordon]

Yeah thanks. I was not sure. I have never skied 28 or 32. I have skied 22 and it is a bigger bump haha. I will prob ski 28 once or twice depending on what i feel i need to work on. Or if I feel like skiing a lazy stroll. I was kind of cool I could have skied all day like I did today.

 

I should have dropped and went back to 15 but I just forgot.

[lcgordon]

Here is an update video. I feel like im skiing a bit better. 2 and 3 had some rollers but 4 and 5 look alot better. Im trying.

 

[Chef23]

@lcgordon that looks great you are showing good improvement. I would say you want to try to hold your position strong through the wakes a little longer. It looks like you were letting up just a bit at the wakes. If you can hold strong through both wakes it will get you earlier to the ball and set you up to run 22 and 28.

[Jordan]

@lcgordon that last video is world better! Keep it up and you will progress very quickly!

[lcgordon]

Thanks guys! That is one of my huge problems. One thing I do notice is when I pull longer I get alot wider and am way earlier. Doing that causes me to kinda screw up my timing. Sometimes I let go with my hand way to early and sometimes im farther outside the ball and its just weird. I dont spend enough time that wide to get used to it. I guess I need to try to spend more time doing it.

[Chef23]

@lcgordon it will mess up your timing some as you get used to it. At 15 off you want to make sure you hang on to the handle until you are out at the width of the ball. Good handle control learned at 15 off will help as you shorten the line. You certainly look like you have the fundamentals to run 22.

[lcgordon]

Thanks Ill try to work on that. I still have to learn 36mph before 22off. Problem is the water is usually not the greatest so 36 is a bit scary. I worked alot on form this year keeping the boat at 30-32mph. I have not spent much time even at 34 this year. I am starting to do more 34 so it is starting to feel slower now.

[ToddL]

@lcgordon - Wow!!!! Looking great! On a Stack Scale of 0 to 100 you look 85% there. Most new skiers can go from 20% to 50% pretty easily. Then getting from 50% to 70% comes with a little time and confidence. However, getting from 70% into the 80%s takes some work and reprogramming. Getting into the 90%s is a life-long pursuit.

 

I am going to respectfully disagree with @Chef23 . I would not advise on holding the lean any longer. It is my opinion that the optimal is to progressively build lean/leverage into the white water, peaking at the 1st wake. Then, at the center line progressively transition to the ski's edge change which happens just past the 2nd wake. Finally, carrying the handle outbound then initiating the outside hand release prior to the buoy.

 

What happens at the center line is a "relaxing" of the lean and allowing the pressure under the ski to start to release into a ski edge change. Notice that I am not saying that the upper body stops it's leverage. Rather, it is a progressive transition to the edge change.

 

This all happens really fast, in fractions of seconds, but I think these are the ideal points of timing.

 

Here's why -

Once the skier has pasted the center line of the boat, the ski's direction of travel becomes more and more down course. Continuing to lean hard past the center line would result in sustained high speed or possibly increases in speed while the ski is pointing more and more down course. Down course speed faster than the boat's speed results in slack.

 

Some may cite videos of pros who hold their lean really long. However...

For an extreme short-line skier, they need to create and maintain enough speed to be able to ride the ski up alongside the boat to be able to reach the buoy. If the skier is an expert at managing and slowing speed on their ski, the skier may hold their lean a little past the center line in order to get sufficiently up on the boat at their hardest passes. However, that same skier will typically be off their leaning edge as they exit the 2nd wake on their easier passed because that is ideal.

 

Also, skiers who have not improved their stack or who have not gained confidence to point their ski to an early line across the boat's path at the finish of the turn can't run a course with this center-line recommendation. Those skiers will likely need to pull sufficiently past the second wake in order to get to each buoy. This is a scramble solution that should not be coached as a means of success. Often those skiers are getting huge slack hits after each turn which often degrades their position and the subsequent wake crossing. It is much better for such beginner skier to ignore the buoys and work on improved stack and completing the turns with sufficient cross-course angle (pointing the ski more across the boat's path). When stack and cross-course angle are sufficient, there is no need to pull so long.

 

Lastly, with each boat speed increase and line shortening the idea of the lean should get shorter in time. Two reasons: 1) things are happening faster, so you don't get to stay in your lean as long, and 2) your turns should complete further around and closer to the start of the white water. The cross course distance of the lean is shorter. The ski's speed is faster. As you attempt each subsequent speed/line, think lean strong but a smidgen shorter that the pass before. In all cases, the ideal point to initiate the relaxing of the lean is still the center-line.

[lcgordon]

Thanks @ToddL That really makes sense. I think my on side pulls are there. My off side pull is just a hair earlier right about at the trough or the face of the first wake. If you watch 4 to 5 ball I let up really early and am flat across the wake. @Chef23 is probably referring to that specific pull.

 

I still need to figure out my off side turns. Im guessing im breaking at the waist but It really feels like I have to baby the turns to not fall. The ski seems to really jump around alot. Sometimes I loose the fin also and its not really on that hard of a turn. 4 Ball is such a sketchy ball for me If I can get around it clean ish a make a decent pull I will usually run the pass.

[Chef23]

@ToddL I agree that high end skiers build more speed in to the first wake and begin their transition sooner and that is a worthwhile goal. I disagree with you that beginning course skiers shouldn't focus on holding that work zone through the second wakes. Beginning course skiers and frankly I put anyone who isn't running through 28 consistently in that category generally need to improve their body position and need to focus on maintaining that through the second wake.

 

I believe that 15 off skiers who focus on beginning the edge change between the wakes are setting themselves up for a lot of frustration. If they had the fundamentals to do that they wouldn't be 15 off skiers. I have seen the videos do Seth and Horton running 15 off and they change edges very early. They also have fundamentals that allow them to run much shorter line lengths.

 

We are probably going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

[ToddL]

"If they had the fundamentals to do that they wouldn't be 15 off skiers. " Good point, @Chef23

[ToddL]

So, back to helping out @lcgordon... I guess I can be swayed a bit to @Chef23 's idea... However, I would point out that if you do stay down in your lean a bit further, you are not allowed to push out the edge change a ton. ;-) (Typically, that is what happens: a skier leans longer and the edge change ends up later. This is because the skier doesn't change the pace of the edge change.)

 

So, stay down in your lean longer but realize that the swiftness of the edge change will need to become quicker so that you get into your inside edge glide near the same point, exiting the white water.

 

Regarding the turns and stack, once you arrive on your inside edge glide, this is the perfect time to reset stack and weight distro such that your hips are back on top of your front foot. Once you get there, your turn can be more about riding a static position through the turn and into the initiation of the lean. The only thing that changes is the ski's roll into a deeper edge as the turn develops and reaches the apex. This is facilitated by your extension. If you start the turn with hips over front foot, then there is less need to have large adjustment to engage the tip to slow or finish the turn. This allows you to carry more speed throughout the turn and finish with more speed at the initiation of the lean making it less abrupt.

[lcgordon]

Thanks I will try to remember that. This weekend is a tournament and I usually try to not think about anything and just ski. Usually the biggest thing I think about is trying to ski the pass im on. So not thinking about my 34 or 36 mph passes when Im on my 30mph one. That hurt me once in the past.

[Chef23]

@lcgordon that is exactly the right attitude. Ski one ball at a time. Have fun this weekend and good luck.

[lcgordon]

Thanks will do.

[ScottScott]

I am just recently to the point of completing the course (15off, 28 mph.) I find one of the biggest things that gets me through is starting the edge change soon enough on my ON SIDE. Since my onside cross position is much better than off side (as is most people,) I have a tendency to hold that too long. My biggest offside turn issue is not slowing enough for the turn, as a result of holding the onside cross edge too long. So even at longer lines, I think the edge change being soon enough is significant. I am skiing without the wing also. You can likely get away with holding the pull longer if you have the wing, but that isn't what you will want when you get to shorter ropes.

[lcgordon]

Skied well this weekend. Thanks guys. I got 3.5 at 36