15off Help/Questions

[lcgordon]

I have been skiing with the same form for a bit now and I try every time I go out to change it. I do alot of things wrong hips back, grab handle too fast, get bent over, wheelie, I dont have time to type everything. Just wondering what would you guys recommend me trying? Its tough because I kind of feel like I cant just do one thing right I need to do them all right to make it work and not fall. For example if I pulled harder in the form I am in I will go out the front.

 

Also, I am a believer that its me and not my ski but it does make me wonder what if my ski is out of wack. I was the one who set it up. I am not one to think I need to adjust stuff but what if I am skiing on something that I set up horribly and I am compensating for it.

 

I tried to attach some videos. I know it is slo mo and bad quality but you can kinda see.

 

 

[lcgordon]

 

this one did not show up

[ToddL]

Everything sits upon the initial foundation you build in your pull out. Start there. It will make everything else easier, better, clearer.

 

Pull out - two things: 1) Get/stay wider, 2) Stand taller.

 

You want to be wider and up alongside the boat more when your are ready to initiate your turn. If you get wider too soon, you will start to drift back. Work on adjusting your pull out effort and timing with the goal of starting your turn right at the moment your ski would start to slow and drift back so that you are turning before that happens. You will feel later, but you should still make the gates and arrive earlier to 1 ball.

 

Look at any favorite pro skier when they are gliding. They are tall, tall, tall. Their weight is mostly over their front foot and they are tall. Every moment you are "resting" on the ski you should be tall and above your front foot. Make this your new "normal" position. Once this feels more normal, work to keep this feeling through the turn in and lean. Also work to restore it during the preturn.

 

I'd just keep those two in mind for now. A good start will build confidence and consistency and take you where you want to go.

 

[lcgordon]

Thanks I will remember that. And start with working on that. I feel like that I have a problem with bending my knees in that I dont do it. So I try to ride around with my knees bent a bit. Is that what I dont want to do? By standing tall are you meaning no knee bend everything in align and stand up as straight as I can? I feel like I hear people saying hips forward, shoulders back and knees slightly bent. If one was to do that I would not considered that tall. Or is the tall stance just in the pull out and then you switch. I get so confused on all of this stuff so sorry for the what may seem like stupid questions. I try to do my reading and watching coaches on you tube but alot of times I just get confused.

[ToddL]

Start tall before the pull out. Stay tall through the lean outward. Stay/regain tall during the glide.

 

 

Getting Stacked tall...

See this thread which refers to the original post in this thread about halfway down.

 

The knees will bend when the ankles bend. So, if you need to "soften" your stance, just think ankles, not knees.

[Jordan]

Tall= hips forward/handle at hips, knees nearly straight, chest proud.

[lcgordon]

I read through the post with the stick figure and thats what I thought. I just cant replicate it. Yet. Ill work on that getting the ski to turn is tough it seems like. I guess I need to turn in easier because the boat stands me up before the first wake. Or I guess I would say im allowing the boat to stand me up because of the things im doing wrong.

[Deep11]

Another way of looking at the "stay tall" idea is that if you look at your video whenever any load is experienced (pull out or through the wakes ) you collapse (shoulders forward / butt back ). To do what has been suggested you need to disconnect the upper and lower body. Meaning : when ANY load comes, your spine stays straight, your butt stays in and all the "flex" comes from knees and ankles (at this point what you do with arms doesn't matter ) To be clear when you watch your video the very first chnage to see is that your spine is tall (shoulders above hips) and at all load points (incl wakes) your spine doesn't look any different than if skiing behind the boat. Now at 15off that probably means the ski kicks through the wakes or you miss the bouys - don't worry - the absolute starting point is a strong skiing position and the starting point for that is your upper body being strong.

Once you can see that being fixed and its automatic = next step :)

[lcgordon]

I will be excited to try some stuff. I kinda feel like I have heard the same thing over the past year and I try really hard and I look the same in the video. Slalom is tough because you cant have somebody standing next to you telling you what to do you just gotta figure it out on your own and ask ppl in the boat.

[gregy]

@lcgordon what ski are you on? I'm thinking at your level set it at factory and work on form. Adjusting a ski to bad form not going to help in the long run.

 

Your problems definitely start before your enter the course as noted above. I'm a fellow LFF and specifically sought out Chris Parrish and Seth Stisher for coaching because they were LFF. Check this thread about halfway down the 1st page. initiating the turn

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/15133/initiating-the-turn/p1

[Jordan]

If you bend your ankles, you will also bendyour knees, but more importantly, you wuill move your center of mass more forward over the ski.

 

If you look at your turn in for the gates, you are on the tail of the ski. This is costing you speed.

[Greg Banish]

1) Tie a 10'+ rope and spare handle to something solid.

2) Assume the "stacked" position, leaning away from the anchor point of the rope with your feet in slalom ski position under the handle.

3) Adjust your body position until you feel that shifting your hips a little bit gives you directional movement. Balance in an upright stacked position.

4) Hold this position for a minute at a time in each direct and build muscle memory before you go out on the water.

5) Repeat. A lot.

[skihard]

Spend some money on a good coach. You'll be amazed at how fast you actually improve. It's not big money and well worth the investment!!!

[lcgordon]

@gregy I am on a radar annex. Im sure the fin is factory but the binding placement is not. I have a radar ski with radar holes and connelly bindings and plates. Is there some what I can measure the ski and know relative to where say my heel is where the bindings should be mounted to be say neutral?

 

I read alot of the link. It was something good to do while gluing drysuit seals. From what it seems If I am standing in a perfect position or pretty good position and I point my belly button to 1 o'clock and count one second then glide then to turn in point my belly button to 11 o'clock I will be set up pretty decent to 1 ball. Ill be screwed for the other 5 haha. Just wondering since when you go to pull out what do you do with your body to technically stand back up or quit pulling. I know how I would do it but how are you supposed to? Are you supposed to turn your hips back to 12?

 

@gregbanish I dont do that as often as I should but when I do I assume a comfortable position and it is a pretty good one. Then I try to do the position in which I ski and it is so uncomfortable and Im just like why do I ski like that it is harder for me to even do than a good stacked position.

 

@skihard I would really like to Im not really sure where I can go tho. I live in denver co which is pretty far from places that I have heard of that coach. Im sure there is people here that do it I just need to find them. I would really like to try the video coaching with Chris Parrish. Does anybody have experience with him over video?

[ToddL]

To find a possible coach -

Go to usawaterski.org's national ranking list page

Select Colorado (which is near the bottom of the list) for Region or State filter.

Select a Division (M/W3-M/W5 = 35-59)

Look at any skier Level 7 - 9.

Maybe one of those folks is near you and willing to coach. Click on the name to see the city where they live. If you find someone, you can Google them to try to get a contact number or email.

[ToddL]

Regarding binding placement... This is the first thing that one should setup when setting up a new ski. Basic method: take off the rear boot, measure from the back of the binding heal to the fin end of the ski. Compare this to published manufacturer's default setting. Note: default may not be the middle hole, heck it may be the first or last hole. You may even need to consider drilling new holes into the binding plate in extreme mix/match cases. Once you have your binding in the default setting, go ski it for a while.

 

Often people will move their bindings as a crutch to poor stance or balance on the ski. A skier who's stance is too far back, might overly move the binding forward to compensate. This crutch can create a barrier to learning proper stance. When this skier attempts to learn to stand correctly on the ski, their center of mass will likely be too far forward due to the combination of correct stance and too forward binding. They will likely have OTF falls or feel uncomfortably at risk of falling. Thus, they will abandon learning the proper stance. The scenario can work in the reverse with a skier who is too far forward with shoulders and has the binding too far back to compensate.

 

Thus, if you find that your binding is significantly away from default, please consider the above scenarios and how your balance and stance along with the current binding placement may all be working as a system. By understanding this, you will be prepared to know how to adjust your stance based upon your binding movement. Hopefully, both will move toward a more balanced and stacked position.

[lcgordon]

Thanks for the info I will try that

[lcgordon]

Just looked it up my buddy I ski with Is Level 7 M1 skier.

[lcgordon]

@ToddL Thanks for that I will do that I would guess I have mine a little too far forward.

[Than_Bogan]

I just did a little experiment where I read all the comments first and then watched the video.

 

Firstly, I was expecting you to be a LOT worse. The comments had me thinking you were wildly out of position. Actually, much of what you're doing is pretty good.

 

That said, you won't be able to progress much more with that kind of bend at the hips. That jack-knife position forces the tail very deep and makes the ski inefficient. And yes -- if you pull harder like that you are going OTF, because the ski can pivot very suddenly from tail to tip-down. (One thing many don't consider is that riding the tail of the ski creates tremendous OTF opportunities because torque is what leads to rotation and to OTF. If centered and balanced and using the entire ski, there is no torque acting in that direction.)

 

From your knees to your shoulders, you want to be as straight as possible. The only way to get there is to practice it ALL the time. And I mean outside the course and at work and while standing in line at Dunkin Donuts. Figure out how to bend your ankles to move forward a little while keeping dead straight from your knees up. Since you've likely never been there before, this may feel like awkwardly driving your hips forward. Keep doing it until you can't do it wrong.

 

Finally, never do that little wake jump again :). Obviously, I am kidding. But the nature of setting up for that is exactly what you don't want to do: lowering your center of mass by bending forward from the waist. So at least be conscious that if you ever feel remotely like that in the course, you've lost your body position.

[ToddL]

Yeah. What he said! ( @Than_Bogan )

 

To emphasize - always stand on your ski in the best position possible. When you first get up and when you exit the gates, get into perfect position. While you are riding to set down, or around the turn around at the end of the lake, always be in perfect position. The more time you spend in perfect position, the more likely your body will adopt it while you are focused on something else (like rounding buoys).

[lcgordon]

@Than_Bogan Thanks for the info and tips. I will work on it. When Im riding around I try to be in good position. I forget sometimes I need to be better at remembering. Haha about jumping. I know its bad form but I gotta keep it fun or I will just get mad all the time. Last time I skied I was not skiing well so I took a trick set and got my first reverse back so that made me happy. I will do more dry land and really focus on my form.

[lcgordon]

I tried standing taller this weekend a bit. We did not have very good water so I did not ski much. It felt pretty weird. I think I lost my form through the wakes and if I did not I for sure lost it around 1 ball. Its going to take some open water skiing. Should start here in a couple weeks before work. Waiting on it to get lighter a bit earlier.

[Chef23]

There is some good stuff here. I don't think right now that your ski setup is the issue although I would recommend checking it to make sure it isn't way off. I would focus on what @Than_Bogan had to say and improve your stack/position on the ski and improve your effort in the work zone through the wakes. That frees everything else up and will make your activities around the buoys that much easier.

[lcgordon]

Yeah I know its not the ski its me. I was just wondering if the ski may be really far off. I will keep working on my form. I do need to measure the front boot. I am having a little trouble figuring out where to measure to on the fin block? Do you think it would be the very front?

[gregy]

For the front binding you measure from the back of the boot to the very back edge of the ski.

[lcgordon]

ok thanks I was confused then thanks

[swardco]

@lcgordon , I won't presume to give any advice, but did you know that Chris Parrish will be in Colorado doing a seminar on June 11th? http://www.cp3ski.com/?product=2016-colorado-clinic

[lcgordon]

I did but I did not know if I could make it at the time of sign up. Im guessing its full by now.

[chris55]

You never know, don't assume it is full, call or send a email, coaching with CP is so worth it......you will be so happy you did....!!!!

[lcgordon]

I was thinking about doing his video coaching instead. Its half the price. So I could send him something and work on what he tells me get better and then send him something again when im at a different stage of learning. I would feel like his video coaching should be basically just as good. Then I can also do it on my own time. Really tho until you can get stacked your pretty much a lost cause on everything else that somebody could teach you because nothing matters if your in a crappy position from the start. I may be wrong on that but im guessing thats pretty much right.

[Than_Bogan]

@lcgordon Well, sort of. Sometimes hearing the exact same concept with different words can change everything.

[lcgordon]

@Than_Bogan That does make a lot of since. I feel like I just need a lot of water time to get comfortable riding in a new position. It does not feel bad riding around but as soon as I cut in it is not and Im pretty sure i revert to sticking my butt back. Slalom is about as frustrating as golf except I dont loose money every time I make a mistake. Balls get expensive.

[ToddL]

@lcgordon - don't get discouraged. Yes, when learning a new stance you can ride around on it and it will typically dissolve to old habits once you make your first cut. That's just the initial state of learning a new stance. It's normal. Still, the more you ride correctly, the more it feels better/normal, the more it will start to bleed into your turns, cuts, etc.

 

The fact that you can feel the difference says a lot and is a very good thing!

 

Try drills which allow you to focus on the new stance while cutting. Do the pullout, glide and gate cut, but don't turn 1-ball. Then, move back over to the starting location and do a second pullout, glide, "gate" cut further down the lake/course. Thus, get more than one "gate" practice per ride down the lake. During these, your only focus is maintaining the desired stance throughout the pullout, glide, turn in, and cut through first wake. (Note, that your legs (ankles) do absorb some force from center-line through edge change.) Then, in the glide out to "1-ball" resume that stance (get/stay tall) as you cast outbound on the inside edge.

 

The key is if you focus on keeping the desired stance through the gate process, then it will likely become more normal feeling. This then will work its way through the whole pass over time.

[lcgordon]

Yeah I was thinking this last night. Really I should be able to do this open water too. I know it will come eventually. You really never see a course skier that has done it for along time looking like me so eventually it must work out.

[paul413ski]

@lcgordon was very fortunate a few years ago to ski with the G.O.A.T and had very similar problems as you He gave me this genius piece of advice keep the handle low send it in the direction you wish to go and then chase the handle with yout hips keeping the gap as close as possible Improved my body pisition no end hope this may help

[Justin_C]

Another option for video coaching is through a new website that Jodi Fisher is running. www.theskiskool.com. I was down there a few weeks ago and he is an awesome coach who wants you to improve. It's worth checking the site out. For $10 or $15 a month you can upload videos right to him (or other coaches) and have professional instruction all season!

[BlueSki]

Seth Stisher does video coaching too. His feedback gave me a good jumpstart on my last year.

[lcgordon]

Thanks guys for the other options. I really like the idea of video coaching I dont have enough time off work or money to go down to florida or something and I worry about somebody coming here and me only getting six passes. I would like to have somebody coach me on some of my better passes and not bad ones where I know I did terrible. It would be nice for somebody to tell me what I am doing wrong when my skiing does not feel too bad.

[lcgordon]

Watching some videos online and noticing some different styles of skiing. One guy in particular caught my eye. Matteo Luzzeri. He skis both knees very bent and his hips pretty back compared to somebody like nate. Maybe thats why he is having trouble at idk 39 in the video I watched. But Im just trying to run 15. His style seems like it could be closer to what I could actually do instead of trying to ski like nate does. I feel like to get me to ski in perfect super tall form could take years. Im not going for any records. Im just trying to not suck so bad. Idk what do you guys think im I totally off with this thinking.

[gt2003]

I still haven't run 15 off but I'm much closer than I was when I first started. Saying that, FOCUS on the stacked position! Is it easy, NO. Will it be 2nd nature soon, probably not. Can you do it if you are consistent. YES, you most certainly can. This sport is hard enough even if you are doing everything right. Hell, I might even make it to 4 ball if I'd finish a turn and point my ski across the course instead of down course but who knows. I do know that if I don't maintain my best stack possible that I will drop my butt, slow my ski down and NEVER have a chance of running 15 off. Learn right the 1st time and just realize it's going to take time and consistency.

[lcgordon]

Yeah time is what I dont have working 50 hrs a week and I get off got to the lake about 1 day during the week get their get my ski on then one wake board boat drives by screwing up the water. Then I ski the morning on the weekend and our lake does not open til 9 so guess what thats late enough that the wakeboarders have time to wake up and come screw me over once again. From about now until october us slalom skiers are pretty much screwed. I cant afford a private lake. How long does a portable course take to put up. We have other lakes that open at sunrise that dont have a course.

[gt2003]

Some folks tie a short section of rope to a tree or something else solid and practice their body position this way; Hips up, chest up, arms straight, rope low, feet in a skiing position. That's the first thing Trent had me do before my lesson w him was put the rope on the pylon and have me show him my body position. It will feel strange at first but the more often you do it the more familiar it becomes. And, it's something you can do for a few minutes on your strong and weak side each evening without having to go to the lake.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

@lcgordon I am in a similar position as you trying to get course time in with limited funds and time as well as just trying to reach 34mph at 15off. I bought a portable course last year and by the third session with it we were setting it up in 25 minutes in deep water (90-100 feet). Shallower water wouldn't take as long due to shorter anchor lines. Takes about 20 minutes to pull back out of the water. That is with three of us. I've done it a couple times with just two people and that adds another 5 minutes to each end of the process. I'm using an EZ-slalom course, which comes highly recommended on this forum.

[lcgordon]

I have a friend who has one. I have no clue what brand it is. Would be nice to go set it up at 5 am and take it out when the boats come out to play.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

There is a lot of repetition with setting up and taking down the course (6 buoy arms exactly the same and two gates exactly the same), so you will figure out little things to make it faster very quickly. The trouble I have on our public lake is that most of the shorelines are steep, so I've only found one good place for it where we don't get a lot of backwash.

[lcgordon]

Yeah that makes sense. Some ppl I talk to say it takes 20 min and some ppl say it takes 2hrs. Guess the type of course matters. Our lake we usually ski on pass 5-6 gets rough. It does not have good shore line

[lcgordon]

I skied last night. Not the best water because of wind but it felt good. My buddy said It was one of the better if not best times he has seen me ski. I have been riding around in a good position and feel like I can hold it during the turn in. I bet I dont through the wakes but its a start. I maybe was doing better because the majority of the time I was not jumping the wake on my off side.

 

On an unrelated note any body ever use d3 driver boots? Im concerned about coming out of the boots I have because I never have and think going back to a rubber boot would be safer. I have an old set that I used to use that where good but they are in bad shape and the holes dont line up on my ski but I liked them. There is a cheap pair right now on ski it again.

[Hboroughs]

@lcgordon there is a lot of good form in your video. you have also gotten some great tips here. as a fellow LFF skier, I thought of a tip i was once given - when you turn in for your gates, and turn 2/4, be sure to keep your shoulders facing downcourse/open. in other words, do not use your shoulders as part of the turn. your lower body should be doing that. i have a habit of closing off my shoulders on my offside, and it really shuts down the turn. doing this also helps prevent dipping the shoulder down which is what i saw on your video.

 

i think more than anything, our alignment and "stacked position" is what is critical to good and safe skiing. one of my ski partners says he never lets his shoulders cross the wake before his front foot. i like that visual.

 

you are very smart to consider good technique early in your skiing. too many of us learn bad habits that are very difficult to break. best of luck to you!

[lcgordon]

Thanks for the info I will try to remember that. This skiing thing is not easy.