Drivers ability

[skier2788]

I am curious at what rope length you all feel that the driver is a critical part? How important is it for the pros to ski behind a driver a few sets for them to get in rhythm?

[6balls]

No idea on pro's. I ski with only one other skier most of the time. We try to coach to the extent possible. I won't look over my shoulder at the buoy or in the mirror at 35 off and shorter...it's all about the best pull I can give them at that point.

[Horton]

Driving gets a lot more critical around the time the rope does not reach the ball. It gets a lot more critical every line length after that.

[skibug]

I believe it sort of has to do with the skier's ability too; meaning you have to give someone a good (great) pull on their hardest line length. Any negative impact from the driver can affect that skier's ability to run the pass.

[skier2788]

I am curious on the subject as I usually only ski behind a few drivers. Most are good some not so much. Usually if I am not feeling great about the driver I won't go past 35. One I won't do 35 with. I am thinking of moving and the loss of my 3 good drivers scares me. Don't want to take a step back in my skiing because of driving.

[RichardDoane]

I can tell a lot about drivers by the deep water start, speed around the island, and the set up to the 55's, and try to never complain - instead it's better to suggest improvement areas, remember that you can't ski without a driver, and everyone started their driving career as a newbie

[skier2788]

Is there a good way to get a person some driver training without spending hours behind the wheel? The driver I won't do 35 behind is my girlfriend. It's a mutual understanding. She has been driving for me for 3 years now but the concept of how to drive the slalom course is lost on her. This all started with the thread about sasha descuns and boat path. I always thought it was in my head at 35 and 38 that the driver makes a difference. Glad to know I have some validity

[bishop8950]

I think driving matters as soon as a skier runs the course. It just gets more critical as you shorten, probably exponentially. If I had to name a line length I would say 35 is where the curve really starts to steepen. But I bet I could make 15 off feel good or bad depending on how I move the boat through the course.

 

As for the pros, even the very best drivers will feel different. There are different ways to get the job done and different philosophies on what the best ride is and different skiers will prefer different things. But to ski tournaments pros and ams alike have to adjust to the boats, conditions, drivers, etc. Its all part of the event. But over the course of a multi round event skiers will start to dial in, drivers will as well.

 

End course video is by far the best way to improve. If you have access, record it, watch it, make improvements and repeat.

 

One thing I always appreciate in a driver is just knowing they are trying to do a good job. I worry more about the cocky guys that have never seen their end course video yet know they are the best driver in town. I will pick the humble rookie that will be focused and try hard over the other any day.

[Dano]

I ski better when I trust my driver can do the following:

- drive a straightish line through the entire course.

- get boat stopped or turned around without parking my boat on the beach.

If driver can accomplish these 2 things I'm pretty happy.

 

[rockdog]

The biggest help I think is that the driver is a skier as well. In my experience it's almost a given that if they don't ski then the driving will be just adequate at best unless they've had years of practice.

[LeonL]

All line lengths are important, but I also think 35 is where it gets critical. A driver at our site (now much improved) if he drove for me, 32 always happened, I could never get very far at 35. Other drivers I did much better.

[BrennanKMN]

32 is when I will stop watching the mirror as much and 35 is where I am 100% eyes front. This also depends on the boat. There is one boat that we ski with that requires constant feedback after 22 - that thing is a pain to drive for a short line skier .

[thompjs]

In practice you can help too, if you know what you are doing. Esp at 35 and shorter.

 

 

[Sethro]

I'm sure many of us have "that guy" in our rotation that we try to avoid having drive in the course. I'm not really proud of it, but we'll go to extremes like asking him to observe instead of drive, race him to the driver's seat, skip a spot in the rotation....etc. And yes, we would try to explain what was detrimental but it never seemed to help. I would never spin at the end because he for some reason refuses to go in a straight line out of the exit gates, and instead dives to the right so the skier sets up for the course coming back in rollers.

 

But, it's better than no driver, and it didn't really cause a missed pass too often anyway. :)

[Chef23]

I am with @BrennanKMN when I am driving through 32 off for the better guys I ski with I feel like I can take a quick peek in the mirror (they seem to appreciate the feedback). At 35 off I just focus on driving.

 

When driving in a tournament it is always just focus on driving.

[ski6jones]

@bishop8950 (or anyone for that matter) could you elaborate on "There are different ways to get the job done and different philosophies on what the best ride is and different skiers will prefer different things."

[RazorRoss3]

I can tell the difference even at my opener, I can run my opener behind almost anything but I can feel a good driver in my hands because they aren't drifting away from me and pulling the handle out of my hands or drifting into me and giving me some loose line. It certainly comes in to play as I get into my more challenging passes. -32 I can usually put down but it can look a little war like if I make a mistake so a good driver can make a difference if I get myself in trouble and at -35 I'm still far from consistent, in fact I'd call it occasional at best, and wouldn't stand a chance behind anything other than a good driver. 58K skier.

 

Practice I feel that I can be in the mirror through -35 and because I know @Razorskier1 so well I can actually watch him at -38 because I know what to expect from him. Most other skiers I still feel comfortable taking a peek at through -32 and after a few passes even -35. In tournament my eyes only go to the mirror when I'm pulling the line tight before the pull up and during the turn island to be sure my skier isn't inside the turn and sinking, I give it more throttle, or outside the turn and getting thrown to shore, I give it less throttle.

[keithh2oskier]

Is there a way to setup a decent video of from the boat? I have been thinking of setting up a video camera (like go-pro) on my windshield. We don't have the ability to setup an end-course video at our site.

[Razorskier1]

Driving is easier when you always pull the same skiers. I have huge respect for the solid tournament drivers who (a) know the basics well, and (b) can adapt to a wide range of skiers/rope lengths/boat speeds and still get it done. I have pulled @RazorRoss3 thousands of passes, so pulling him is predictable in terms of his impact on the boat.

 

@ski6jones -- that subject is a long conversation! @bishop8950 is right -- different ways to get it done. A lot of it comes down to timing and duration of the countersteer. If you ski a lot of drivers you might notice some feel stiffer, others feel softer -- but end course video likely shows both down the center. However, each is starting their counter at a different time, and may be holding it for a different duration. Its a little like zero off. Some settings have sharper, shorter bursts to counter the skier, while others have longer, smoother bursts.

[DW]

@skier2788 : As noted, a driver can make a significant difference if they are not very competent behind the wheel or understand the dynamics of what is going on. It does take a certain percentage of the driver population a while (years) to become adept at driving. For your particular case, and I am sure your girlfriend wants to do a great job for you, and most likely the last person to 'critique' her skills is probably you (been in that same boat). I would suggest finding a qualified female driver and see if she will offer some training. Much higher likelihood they will be on the same wavelength and your GF will respond to another females input. Action Watersports in SE Michigan offers a woman's driving clinic every year, I can't think of a smarter marketing or offering for a tourney boat seller. Another option would be to hit a tournament and scout the field there.

[Ralph Lee]

@skier2788 My wife is an amazing driver!! All thanks to time spent out in open water, I'd highly recommend getting your girlfriend out of the course now and then if possible.

[6balls]

It's best if the driver knows about my 2 and 4 ball ahead of time!

 

A guy I don't ski with all that often is terrible. He's over his shoulder every ball then looks back forward and has to make some correction. Ski short at your own risk...I don't mind running a pile of openers behind him which is better than not being able to ski at all on a given day. My other drivers are solid.

 

[skier2788]

@DW haven't thought about having another female work with her. Have had my buddies try to help but she just gets more nervous about it with them watching. She used to have to take xanax before driving. At least she doesn't have to do that anymore haha

[DW]

There is an old adage, you go where you look. When a driver looks over attempting to see the skier they tend to turn the wheel in the direction they are looking. Also, you don't realize you are doing that and then have to correct when turning ones head back forward. Not sure why people feel compelled to turn and look, you really don't see much when you do that as the time allowed to look is so short & you hinder the skiers run.

[bishop8950]

I can coach better from the drivers seat when I am looking forward. I can feel what they are doing back there and can give good feedback based on what I feel. No need to look back.

 

What @Razorskier1 said about different driving styles. For 99.9% of drivers out there you are best trying to stay dead center. You will need to block and drive the boat a bit, but dont try to give the skier more help. A step up is to learn to work with the skier through your timing of when you block and release. Wait for them if they are late and be ready if they are early.

 

The very best drivers can take advantage of the fact that you are allowed to move the boat as much as a few inches out of center. Yes, a few inches. So some drivers try to give that to you and others prefer to stay dead center. The pros feel the difference.

[santangelo]

Don't forget that you, as a skier, are the input to the driver. The skier, in large part, determines how well the driver does. Two ends of the spectrum:

1. easy to drive: loads later and progressively, has rhythm and stays connected out to the buoy

2. difficult to drive: loads early and inconsistently and comes off handle quickly/releasing line tension.

 

There's obviously many cases between these two extremes.

 

In the first case, you're letting your driver know where you are the entire pass and allows for smooth steering. In the second case, he's guessing and driving will be erratic.

 

In general, I gauge every pass I drive by how much my hand moves on the wheel. If you're searching with the wheel, it's not good for the skier. Whether it's you or the skier is for you to decide based on what it felt like in the seat of your pants.

[brody]

I always find this a frustrating topic! My pb is 2@38, 34mph. We have a high level skier here (jr worlds and some pro tours) who would choose not to ski at all if the right driver is not here. It really bugs, you can go on you tube and watch numerous videos posted of clinics that Andy Mapple has run and just got one of the people there to drive for him, I have seen him into 39 and not sure but I think 41 with these amateur drivers. I know the driver makes a difference, I have my preferences too and ski better behind certain people. I think this is mainly just being relaxed and trust them. My wife is one of the drivers and by no means is giving me a perfect ride. I just know what she is going to do. The people I won't let drive are either I think they might do something that might hurt me physically or just ruin the set by putting rollers in the course.

I had the opportunity to ride in the boat this year with a pro driver who gave me some great tips. He said he will not move the wheel until the he feels the skier.

[Than_Bogan]

My sense is that the driver's challenge rises very rapidly in those last few line lengths. I think anyone who wants to can become an excellent driver through -35. -38 is the first one where maybe some people will never really master it, and where I think it may help a lot to be a pretty good skier. And -39 is just that much harder, and I have no effing clue how to drive for -41 or -43. I would start by asking the skier for a LOT of feedback after every pass.

 

That said, someone with a skiing background and willing to listen can improve extremely quickly. Just a few weeks ago I had a high school junior driving shortline for the first time. She is also a very solid skier. My plan was to stay at -28 and help her to figure it out, but I soon found myself at -35. After a few minor pointers I headed on in to -38. There's a little more for her to learn from more practice, but I'd happily go after -38 with her driving any time.

[BrennanKMN]

I fellow I ski with will ski up the line with just about anybody who can drive a course decently straight. (into 38) I really respect him for that. If you can ski 35+ with an iffy driver than you can ski it even better with a solid driver.

 

Reminds of why I still ski in wind. The runs I make in less than ideal conditions make the ones in ideal conditions that much better/easier. I believe the same applies to drivers.

 

Now I can not even think of running 38, but if someone who could run it started skiing with us and stopped at say 35 because he didn't like our driving. I'd either ask for feedback to improve or not invite them back.

[klindy]

Our current system simply rates drivers at Assistant, Regular and Senior. While there are good criteria to move from one rating to another (including tournament time and a practical test), it would seem that just saying "senior driver" doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. What if we had a driver "ranking list" which ranked drivers based on real and measurable criteria which *might* be more helpful.

 

For example, the WSTIMS scoring program keeps track of a LOT of information that largely goes unused and even unseen. In recent years scorers are consistently good to enter the officials (including driver) into the event logs at tournaments. Obviously all the skier details are entered and logged. The program wont even let you start scoring until you enter the boat manufacturer and engine criteria. External data like tournament schedule and maximum entries can be found in the calendar database.

 

So my thought is to create a system where drivers are continuously ranked (like the current skier ranking list) based on a number of "quantity" indicators and "quality" indicators. They can then be weighted as needed based on their perceived value.

 

For quantity indicators it may be something like the percentage of tournaments attended (drove), percentage of potential pull (season) and percentage of potential pulls (average tournament). Drivers in the southern region have a longer season and therefore more potential to attend tournaments. The Midwest and East have shorter seasons. Likewise tournaments in the Midwest tend to schedule more pulls per day than say the East or South Central. The idea being someone who 1) attends a lot of tournaments, 2) lives in an area with a lot of opportunity and 3) actually drives a lot at the tournaments they attend are likely to be more experienced and possibly better drivers.

 

Quality indicators would be pulled right from the scoring program. I think tracking the total number of scores 32 off and above, 38 off and above and 41 off and above would be an excellent way to know if they have the ability and experience.

 

For example, if a driver has a total of 500 tournament pulls in a 12 month period and has 450 scores into 32off or above, 200 scores into 38 off or more and 50 into 41 off that would seem to mean something. Alternatively, if another driver has 80 pulls in a year of which 75 were 32 off and above, 50 were 38 off and above and 5 were 41 off or more, I'd 'rank' the first driver higher even though they are both senior drivers.

 

The idea would be to calculate the ranking when the tournament scores were submitted just like skier scores. Ultimately it may be good to add things like national records and world records pulled or award some kind of bonus for pulling elite tournaments or whatever. It would even be possible to rank drivers by boat manufacturer if you really want detail.

 

Anyway, I'm sure a system can be devised. Question is whether it would be valuable and useful or whether it would be a distraction and create more of an issue than it solves.

 

I attached a super simple spreadsheet which helps illustrate what's above. The "gold" colored cells in row 40 would be the rank normalized to a max score being 100. Basically it takes the rating and modifies it based on number of years at that rating then the quantitative and qualitative metrics noted above.

[Roger]

@klindy - I like that idea and I know the data is there. I pulled a round at Jacksonville earlier this year and the scorer was able to produce a chart with the skier, their performance and the driver. I believe this all came from WISTIMS (see attachment).

[klindy]

@Roger Good stuff. Problem is not even you would have seen this if you didn't ask for it. We have the data it just doesn't do anything or mean anything.

[keithh2oskier]

Having data is at least a step in the right direction. Hard to analyze what you don't have.

[Stevie Boy]

When somebody is skiing well, it's a lot easier to drive them at any line length, if they are having a bad day then the driver is going to have a hard time as well.

I am not happy unless I feel I have given the skier the best drive possible, all I know is that skiers tell me that when I drive, it feels slow, I have had 36mph skier,s ask me if it was 34mph (times are always good).

I do my best to keep ever thing smooth, feed them into the 55,s ( No Gassing ) I get the throttle right there for the speed required, once engaged the throttle moves forward so that Zero Off can do it,s job, I am sure I use the sound of the engine with out realizing it, to set the speed before the 55,s.

Just keep it smooth, outside of the course as well as in the course.

Here,s a good tip which was given to me, which is worth remembering as skiers appreciate it, if the skier is one foot in to start, always position the boat to his right for the deep water start, this helps give the skier a smoother transition to the left hand side of the boat for his/her setup, making it easier to get their back foot in, with out negotiating the wake, really helpful on a short lake.

 

 

[Roger]

@klindy - I did not ask for it, @Gloersen (Peter Gloersen) posted it to a thread about the tournament here on BOS. Not sure how he produced the report; maybe he will see this and let us know.

 

Here is the thread victory-lake-spring-slalom-3c

[Joeprunc]

Boat driver makes a pretty big difference. There are a few in my club that are somewhat clueless, and some that are phenomenal. But you know what....I don't get paid to do this, I'm on the water because I enjoy it, so no matter who is pulling me I have a smile on my face.

 

I wish I could let my GF drive the boat....but honestly she does not have the attention to detail that is needed.

 

I know I'm not the most experienced driver, and usually in a foreign boat, so I am constantly asking for feed back, after -28' I never look in the mirror keep the boat straight. Gotten two club skiers into their PBs 36 mph at -38'. I take pride when they ask me to give them a pull.

 

In teaching a new driver how to pull through the course, what are a few steps you have found to work well?

[sunperch]

@klindy I like your train of thought! I may be complicating things too much, but would there be a possibility of obtaining data that ranks drivers on skier's tournament score compared to skier average? That information would be interesting! In the Midwest, we don't have the # of short line skiers at every tournament that other regions have, so data may be skewed when comparing drivers from different regions.

[Roger]

@brody - "I had the opportunity to ride in the boat this year with a pro driver who gave me some great tips. He said he will not move the wheel until the he feels the skier."

Really, a "Pro Driver" said that?

 

Well, all I can say is I can't do that... I pulled Nick Parsons to 3@41 last year with the Centurion and I'll simply say that if I waited until I felt him pull, the boat would have been well outside the boat guides let alone in record tolerance. It varies by boat, but you will have to give the skier the back of the boat as they round the buoy to hook up or you will get pulled to that side and wind up in a reverse weave with the skier. How much you move the bow away from the skier (also called giving the skier the back of the boat) and when is what is critical to the feel for the skier. Counter too soon and the boat will be moving away from the skier at hookup and will feel firm, too late and they will have a loose line. Perhaps what he meant was that he feels where the skier is? I've been working hard on this for that past year and a half myself. When you know where the skier is, it's much easier to establish the proper rhythm with the skier and the whole process is easier for both of you. I've pulled many of the top pros into 41 and gotten feedback from them. Nearly all of them have a similar wish, and that is a tight line at the end of the turn, but not a runaway handle. Ultra shortline like this takes knowledge of the dynamics and a lot of practice. One thing you can do if you have someone who can really feel what the boat is doing is have them ski a set and give feedback during the set. A couple of years ago, I had @Chet (Chet Railey) come out to Okeeheelee and do just that. Chet can ski 35 off and tell you everything you're doing with the boat, even how you're holding the wheel. Getting feedback is paramount in my opinion. My feedback comes from the skiers I pull, my end course videos (and comparing them to other top drivers end course video), and other top drivers. I'm also a firm believer in practice, not just the ultra shortline skiers, but a variety. I pull everyone I can from slower speed long line skiers to ultra shorline skiers in practice. The last thing you want to do going into a tournament as a driver is to only be pulling your ski partner every day. Along that same line, drive as many of the current hulls as you can since they all react a bit differently. I'll finish with: My goal in the course as a driver is to be transparent to the skier. They should not notice a too tight or too loose line. They should not have a too hard or too soft deep water start. They should not be tugged after the line is shortened until the pull up. They should simply be able to concentrate on their skiing.

[ski6jones]

Thanks @Roger. That's very helpful.

[Jody_Seal]

Pro Driver??? At this time our organization does not recognize professional waterskiing! "There shall be no distinction between amateur and professional"

 

I like to call them world level drivers. These drivers have spent a lot of time and energy perfecting their skills. These drivers that are being utilized at the cash prize, big dawg and world competition are closely scrutinized by both athlete's and officials. Getting to be invited as a driver at one of these big events is an acknowledgement that you have accomplished a level of competence and acceptance by both the skiers and officials.

 

For those of you who want to become better drivers and achieve acceptance you must go out of your way and off your own site and drive the boat for others. You must be flexible and take the time to practice.

As chief driver I have been approached by many aspiring drivers that come to me and say I need to drive to keep credit, this is unacceptable in most cases as this tells me that the driver is not practicing/ I get this more from drivers that need jump credits and I ask them when the last time they pulled a jumper was ?

 

We in our sport have a number of great drivers. As a driver I try and listen to what these drivers have to offer and what is working for them. Lyman, chad, Lester, Bush, Becky, Pagozi and a few others are the one's that I get to work and ski with and am always learning from them as well as passing on what I have to offer.

 

Practice! Practice! is the only way to get better.

[brettmainer]

I agree 100% with @Roger but only 99% with @Jody_Seal. I let my (assistant) driver rating go in 2003 when I made that request and was told 'no' at the last tournament of the year. I had a 2 year old and a wife that worked weekends. Easy to find a babysitter for 10min so I could ski, but not so easy to find one for 2hrs so I could drive, so I found myself in that position. I drove a lot of good skiers, but only drove 2 tournaments that year. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances. I was pissed and neither judged nor drove for quite a few years after that, figuring that if the old guard wanted to run the tournaments by themselves, they could have at it.

 

I know I'm not on the same driving level with the best drivers, but I do believe I was good enough to keep my drivers rating. I was at a tournament this year that only had 2 drivers who took turns all weekend. The tournament would have benefited from another driver that the elitist attitude more than a decade prior turned away.

[Stevie Boy]

Some Top Drivers you just have to admire, how can you drive the boat at a competition and then get out of the boat and ski in that competition and ski at what I would consider to be a very High Level, if I drive the boat for two, three hours, I need a reasonable amount of time before I get in the water and ski, or else it always ends up the set from hell.

[LeonL]

@brettmainer currently the requirements to renew/maintain an assistant driver rating is 4 tournaments every 2 years. Back in 2003 I thought it was 2 every year. You said you did 2 and still lost your rating?? What as the quantitative requirement in '03? Did you ask for an exemption?

[brettmainer]

Maybe it was two and I only pulled one, or maybe it was 4 over 2 and I had pulled 3. I forget the specifics, but remember I was one short, even though did a lot of non tournament driving those years.

 

I did not ask for an exception. I figured if the old guard wanted to do all the driving and judging themselves, then I would just show up and ski from then on. With small children back then, it was easier that way anyways.

 

In the last couple of years, I have spent a lot more time in towers and have contemplated getting a drivers rating back to help out at tournaments short on drivers.

 

As a skier, I feel anybody can drive me through -35, but I do notice poor driving skills at -32 and -35. 38 and shorter is where I need a better driver and the driver can make or break the pass. As a driver, I feel I am good through -38, but even though I have pulled skiers through -39, I don't feel locked in to the point where I would be a driver of choice at ultra shortline. I would like to get there, but it takes practice and skier+video feedback.

[LeonL]

@brettmainer I have some of the sakes feelings as you concerning "old guard". However in regard to requesting an exemption, if would be granted by someone at USAWS. Having said this, I'm not aware of anyone getting said hardship exemption.

[Stevie Boy]

The amount of times I have heard, it is not a Professional Sport, we are only Amateurs, and this from within the higher ranks, so why make it so hard ?

 

[Stevie Boy]

Clubs that are in reasonable proximity with one another, should start their own Inter- League with their own Drivers and their own Officials, keep it light hearted, Skiers get to ski Competitions and Drivers get to practice driving Competitions.

[ToddL]

@klindy - I am not so sure that skier performances will measure driver's quality. Rather, I think it measures the Chief Drivers' preferences as to who to put behind the wheel for certain divisions/groups. Depending upon the tournament starting order, driver assignments can be either random or intentional based upon assumed skier levels. If random, then the data is meaningless. If intentional, then the data is biased. Either way, it is not as conclusive as we might think.

 

If you really want to find out who are the most desired drivers for a given area, simply poll the skiers. Most seasoned skiers know which local drivers do the best jobs. While this type of data is qualitative, it can be more meaningful. If the poll questions are worded properly you can even counter the popularity contest and familiarity effects.

[bishop8950]

@ToddL I dont think polling the skiers will work. Most groups of skiers will not provide a quality data set.

 

Skier performances are interesting but also provides problems like some mentioned above. The best way to study/measure a driver is end course video over a number of skiers. This would be a lot of work in terms of a national ranking system and in today's environment probably not possible. In the meantime...

 

At the tournaments I attend in NorCal there is end course video running all the time. How drivers are driving is basically public information and if you are interested you can watch any of them. The chief drivers often select from the drivers they know and who can do the best job in that event.

 

If you are not a known quantity and you want to drive you have to voice it and put in the time. Whether it works of course comes down to the behavior and culture of any particular group of people and hopefully we can all do our part to develop new drivers and not just protect the old guard

 

Shortline Lake runs a pretty high standard (judging/driving/etc) for all their events. They have 4 great drivers that live there and many others that come in for the tournaments. It's not an easy place to get a driving assignment. A week before a record tournament at shortline I called the chief driver and asked if I could drive. He said come up before and drive some skiers while he watched my end course. I did and did well so was allowed to drive in their event. While in the event the chief driver stayed on the video and gave me some great live feedback. I have done the same when I am chief driver and have got a few new drivers into to pulling tournaments

[Stevie Boy]

.