UsaSki Witch Hunt

[skidawg]

Posting up for discussion: several top rated senior drivers and lake owners are being accused of cheating and under investigation by a select few w in Usaski. I don't want to make a long post so keeping it brief:

 

1. Should someone be judged and sentenced without warning, notification or due process?

2. Should someone be judged from small samples and marginal data?

3. Should someone be penalized for having 1 bad day (if that's the case) when they have pulled national records in the books a?

4. Should every skier at said tournament have their score taken away from that tournament from all drivers participating?

There are many Ballers in the know- all the info needs to be public, not pidgen holed by a few select egos with personal vendettas!

 

Let's get this started!

[Edbrazil]

Ahem: the phrase is "pigeonholed". This is a broad accusation: what is the evidence and

what are the people and the sites?

 

[skidawg]

The biggest issue regardless of the site/people is how this situation has been handled by the elites!

There was no warnings, notification, zero chance for the drivers to speak their mind. I'm not an English major, u figured out which word I was using!!!

[skidawg]

Evidence is minimal- objective and judgemental

[Than_Bogan]

Guessing you mean subjective?

Sorry to continue the wordsmithing, but objective is the opposite so this kinda matters.

[lpskier]

I was a judge at the tournament. No one spoke to me. A European record, already approved by the appropriate governing body, is potentially on the line. There were three great drivers at the tournament with good scores behind all of them. I'm not sure what the beef is with any part of a great tournament.

[skidawg]

more info will come out- everyone on all levels needs to speak up.

[bigtex2011]

It's interesting. If I where pulled over for speeding the protocol is to get a ticket or a warning not a year long jail sentence. I've seen a lot crazy things over all the years I've skied tournaments and been a member of AWSA. This is hands down the the biggest load of poo I've ever seen.

 

It's a shame. I'm afraid our national awsa leadsership has truly lost the ability to make good common sense decisions.

 

 

[jcamp]

What is UsaSki?

[skidawg]

@Mark_Matis - exactly, why deal with BS when u can ski and have fun!

[The_MS]

How does all this stuff happen in Dec and not back in Sep? Its very cold up here in Minnesota right now but I can still come up with better stuff to do compared to how they waste their time.

 

[Dirt]

This whole thing makes me sick. It seems suspicious that one of the guys being investigated has been pretty critical of usa waterski/awsa and some of it's officials.

Is this going to waste more money on lawsuits?

[EFW]

@skidawg if you apply the questions in your post to an everyday life analogy - corporate america-it happens everyday. Falsely accuse someone-unjustly punish the accused-and then not let the accused defend themselves. It is unfortunate but all too common a reality.

Simply because you or I and others may exhibit honesty integrity and loyalty do not ever expect it to be reciprocal. In a similar recent experience I learned a VERY painful lesson.

I didn't coin this expression but it is true "If you leave this world with one true friend you have left a richer person than most".

[matt_b]

What are the details on this event/accusation?

[skibug]

How about someone just fessing up to the event/location/dates that are being scrutinized so everyone is up to speed and speculation doesn't lead to any undue rumors.

[Stevie Boy]

In the past, I have spoken to two top pro skiers, that are capable of scoring a world record if the right combination and conditions presented themselves, one of these skiers has been controversial with officials, the point I want to make is that these skiers are starting to question whether it is worth all the training ,sacrifises, plus operating on a very tight budget, when officials make it so hard, as well as unfair decisions which impact the competitor.

I now understand why our sport will never, gain professional status, will never be main stream and is not a sport the media would be interest in, simply because the sport lacks Professional Structure, after all some of these people have never competed in the sport at any level and will never understand, that being said I do not want to take any thing away from the many good people that work so hard to promote the sport, with many well run competitions over the country.

These are the very people that should be at the top, people that are and will be respected by all.

[wtrskior]

There are always 2 sides (at least) to every story but we've only heard inuenduos.

 

Names should be witheld IMO but in order to have an real discussion we need to know the situation.

[LeonL]

What @wtrskior and @matt_b said. Withhold names and site, but gives us details. Has there been penalties assessed to individuals?

[jdarwin]

In short - AWSA is practicing selective indignation. Only a handful of tournaments out of literally hundreds held in 2017 are receiving the scrutiny that a select few have. I can only speak for the events held at my site – the two E/L events held at Cottonwood in late September. I’ve been told I’ve been caught in the crossfire of a personal agenda of a certain board member – one who must begrudge someone else’s existence in order to validate his own. I’ll let those on the east coast provide the disturbing details of their current situation. I’ll focus on mine.

 

AWSA has deemed specific events “unworthy” simply by applying a small sample of anecdotal evidence and came to this conclusion by forming “committees” to review without consulting with all parties involved. They used a sample boat path video to not only deny a regional record had been achieved (which I have no issue with) but also discredit the ENTIRE event and have the scores removed. With this small sample of data, they have/are attempting to remove ALL the scores from event(s). – regardless of which officials were involved in the achievement of these scores. This flies in the face of due process. In the end, this is all about the fragile egos of a select few. Those who equate their personal value to the number of 39’s they ski, drive or host at their site. If it didn’t happen at their site or with their driver, someone MUST be cheating!!! STORM THE BASTILLE!!!

I’ve heard of many other events where the driving was substandard. But, in those instances, the driver hindered the performance of the skier. I assume that’s not important to the leadership of AWSA. Only where there is a “perceived” benefit to the skier is the accusatory finger pointed; and then universally applied to all aspects of the subject tournament. This is not only morally reprehensive but also runs contrary to the ethical standards of the AWSA I joined 25 years ago.

 

NO ONE from AWSA has reached out to me directly. Even though the President of AWSA told his “committees” that had occurred. I responded to the President of AWSA via an e-mail that was forwarded to me. He NEVER reached out to me directly. Nor did any of the “committee” members. The President of AWSA (and these “committees”) seems to play fast and loose with the truth – and the rules governing the organization. Once the sensibilities of the elite few are impacted, the resources of an entire organization are utilized to degrade, insult and otherwise discredit fellow members who don’t meet their self-implied standards. These pathetic efforts are extremely transparent to those of us outside the “elite bubble” of AWSA leadership. For AWSA to indiscriminately erase scores from tournaments sets a very dangerous precedent that has far-reaching ramifications should someone bring legal action to apply the same critical standard s to ALL tournaments including Nationals and Regionals. This single action on the part of AWSA could entangle most of its resources to defend and ultimately cause its demise.

 

What AWSA fails to realize is that skiers DO NOT NEED AWSA to ski. To ski tournaments. To ski with their friends. To enjoy a sport free from over-burdensome rules and regulations. As an organization that is losing 10% of its membership annually, it should be focused on retaining and growing membership – not instituting gestapo tactics against its own. AWSA and its board should act in a manner that is transparent and promotes inclusion and cooperation. Currently, that does not exist.

 

[sunperch]

@jdarwin What is the alleged infraction?

[aupatking]

Who do we contact at USA waterski/AWSA? As members, we have a voice.

Or, we just cancel memberships.

I don't know anything about this particular instance, but between boatpath and time, there is no question whether the driver complied. It's a HUGE ego hit to a senior driver, or any driver, to lose a pass to a boat path issue. Let alone, a 39 or shorter record pass.

In my mind, it makes it easy to discount a pass, but you disqualify an entire tournament???? WHY DO I COMPETE AT ALL??????

[Stevie Boy]

One of the reasons that water skiing did not make the olympics was because they said the same boat path could not be garunteed for every skier does this mean we will have to scrap the boats and install a hydraulic driven pylon system, on rails down the centre of the slalom course, bet you the boat manufacturers gonna fall in love with that idea.

Vote with your feet, then heads will tumble.

[Texas6]

My understanding of the olympics decision was that having motor driven device towing the athletes was too large a departure from the challenge presented to the original historical Olympian athletes

[Stevie Boy]

I was told by somebody involved ,very likely several reasons, so they may well of thrown it, all in the same bag.

[aupatking]

these are big judgements against reputable people that I respect in waterskiing. With no explanation. And everyone participating in any of these tournaments just got screwed.

[Stevie Boy]

So should the AWSA reinburst their entry fee ? If the event is declared null and void

[mlange]

Yet another reason why I choose to spend my time by NOT skiing in tournaments and instead enjoy hanging out w/ friends while we rotate sets every single morning we can. Those are the memories that will last forever and far removed from crap like this.

[LeonL]

A bad boat path for one skier, and the integrity all officials and the LOC involved come into question? What the? I'm dumbfounded, disappointed and appalled at the described actions of an organization that I've supported for 30 years. I can only hope I misunderstood what I read, but I do have reasonable reading comprehension skills and a high level of trust in the integrity of @jdarwin .

[Wish]

Think of all the tournaments at Dr. Michaels. Were the drivers, judges and skiers demeaned as a group with everybody's scores pulled? I did not think so but maybe. Or was it just his scores and issues dealt with"?. This seems extreme even if it is just half as bad as described.

[Horton]

I suspect that this thread could get heated. The one rule around here is “Don’t be an asshole”. A secondary rule might be to always take a few deep breaths before you click “Post Comment”. As long as the disagreements and objections remain quasi-professional it is all good.

 

If & when I read any posts that would clearly not be tolerated in a professional environment I will simply delete the post and deal with the author off line.

 

[skibug]

I took a deep breathe and hesitated a minute before I clicked on the "Awesome" for @Horton last comment......I guess it sort of works.

[LLUSA]

There isnt a witch hunt, AWSA hasnt pulled any scores talk to IWWF. The AWSA drivers committee reviews the boat paths/times and reports to the board which meets in January. Amazing how so many who know so little jump to conclusions things always seem to work out

[skidawg]

@LLUSA , I have read emails from the committee threatening a 1 year suspension and down grading all L scores to a class C. Do I need to post it here. That is not speculation. There is also skewed data analysis at the bottom of this. If actions such as these take place, there better be proper evidence and due process to back it up with level heads sitting on the committee

[gregy]

I've heard several top level skiers say that a boat path deviation is a disadvantage at very short line lengths. Is there a rule that can be referenced for this saying tournament score for all will be thrown out? If so maybe the rule needs to be questioned. I like a good conspiracy theory but we need to be careful. I was involved in club in another sport that fell apart due to politics, it was a very sad deal.

[skidawg]

There is also a 30 day period of protest!

[LLUSA]

If you feel like posting it post it only the board makes the decision committees only recommend they dont decide your elected board does

[LLUSA]

@ skidawg. Ward I assume you are referring to Texas no scores have been pulled and no suspension is expected so please quit jumping to conclusions. I've seen the boat path so please let our organization work as it's suppose to. Btw, by tomorrow this board will have the lakes in question being drained.

@gregy deviation is a great tool if you know how to use it at the right time, say for training purposes.

[klindy]

@LLUSA what does this mean from your above post?

 

"Btw, by tomorrow this board will have the lakes in question being drained."

[skidawg]

A poor attempt at sarcasm, perhaps?

[jdarwin]

@LLUSA - score books WERE pulled from the USAWS site - cooler (and more intellegent) heads prevailed and they were restored. Just a point of clarification.

 

As for IWWF, I suspect the same 30 day protest rule would apply as well. But if we are going to validate ALL scores based on boat path videos, there are some Regional and National scores that need to be removed. Consistent application of rules is the only acceptable position. Wouldn't you agree?

[jcamp]

It's interesting how some of the people screaming for "due process" sure don't mind throwing around allegations and personal slanders without providing much in the way of evidence ...

 

I'd like to think there would be a way to come to a reasonable conclusion here without maligning the reputations of all involved ... drivers, judges, skiers and AWSA volunteers.

[skidawg]

@jcamp . UsaSki has procedures in place for this sort of thing. There was no first offense warning, no by the book due process. That's the issue I have.

[skidawg]

AWSA rule book has specific guidelines and directions for official discipline - not followed

[Stevie Boy]

World Class drivers that I know, are very proud of their ability to drive top skiers at the shortest line lengths, are any of them likely to move the boat on purpose to give advantage to a particular skier, putting their reputation on the line, I do not think they would, even harder when a skiers has loaded the line so hard, they pull you off line momentarily, it can happen even to the best drivers.

[bigtex2011]

@jcamp I read the above post by @jdarwin and it seems pretty clear. I hope it gets resolved as well.

[lakeaustinskier]

This discussion makes me sad. I'm not a top level skier. I'm a 32/35 hack who has three kids who don't really ski. They certainly don't ski tournaments. Every tournament I attend (solo) steals time from my family - but I participate for love of the sport. If there was any malfeasance at any event we'll know soon enough. In the meantime this discussion just reminds me about how clubby our sport truly is. Maybe that's the real reason our sport is declining.

[MISkier]

@lakeaustinskier, you basically summed up my situation and feelings on the matter. I am a driver as well and I know the type of impartial quality I try hard to deliver. Having my integrity questioned would bother me - especially for an unpaid position. When I first saw this thread and the first few replies, I asked myself if I would be happy just skiing practice (a.k.a "when it doesn't count"). I think I could be. But, I'd need a few more details before reaching any conclusions. We really don't know enough now.

 

My recap of what I learned/read here:

 

1. Something may or may not have happened at a tournament.

2. People are upset.

3. Some officials may or may not be usurping their authority.

4. The rest of the ski community, drivers, and non-board members should be concerned.

[A_B]

Years ago I think we had the discussion about how absurd some of the technical requirements were getting. Throw a 200 pound butt-strong man behind the boat and its a handful to stay within the buoys let alone deviate from centerline video. Oh, and do that for a bunch of Top Dawgs, pass after pass, or you hear whining... There are still records on the books from many years ago at different ages for boat path deviation that was acceptable.

 

We need to simplify what is acceptable, like don't run over the friggin buoys or have any part of the boat outside the boat buoys at any point in time.

 

We are chasing the impossible unless there is a submerged railroad track with a tow arms running on the rail.

 

Just my 2c.

[teammalibu]

I think I will take up Golf!

[skierjp]

Yes some strong heavy hitter skiers can move the boat. Good drivers can counter for the hit. What these committees are looking for is when a driver intentionally moves the boat to favor the skier. And yes it has been done before in tournaments and drivers have been suspended. I don't think they are looking at just one buoy but if the boat is weaving all the way down the course. A driver that knows what he's doing can add a whole pass to your PB.