UsaSki Witch Hunt

[Ralph Lee]

Seems with video, it should be easy to tell if a good driver got pulled out of his timing, or is purposely weaving. Any debate at all, the driver should get the benefit of the doubt!

[MarkTimm]

So to summarize, whole tournament scores are in jeopardy because a driver may or may not have given a skier an advantageous boat path. Yet we still accept the virtual timing of zero off as accurate?

[Than_Bogan]

I can't believe what click-bait-takers we all are, including myself!! This thread contains mostly vague statements and speculation, and yet it has already racked up over 4k hits, a sadly large number of them by me. I'd like to promise that I'm not going to read any more in this thread until there are specifics, but unfortunately I know I'm going to keep clicking every time it updates...

[MISkier]

I clicked on it just now because I saw @Than_Bogan had posted.

[LeonL]

@MarkTimm do you doubt that the ZO virtual timing is accurate? I had my doubts early on but I checked it with an independent timing system using the magnets and both systems were right together. You can take that doubt out of the equation and never think about it again.

[thompjs]

@MarkTimm In 2007 we ran PP magnet timing and ZO timing in 100s of tournaments. +/- 0.01 sec on every pass. That is basically rounding issues.

 

 

[jcamp]

It's sad to see people suggest they'd leave the sport altogether. Even more sad to see people "like" or "heart" those comments.

[Edbrazil]

Best as I know, the cheater course was only used for Dr. Jim, and not others. I was at the

site when the scam was discovered.

[mlange]

That's my recollection as well. What made it easy to recognize for the Open was that the jump balls were lined up with the skier balls (or not lined up).

 

However, I did a clinic there with Wade Cox about a year before the Malibu Open and after this all came out I'm 110% convinced that my sets in the afternoon were on the cheater course vs. the morning.

[A_B]

Are we to bring in Russian drivers for every tournament of importance so you don't get a friend of the skier driving?

[oneski]

What was the scam with that site??

[Horton]

Well I will say that "CottonGate" is really good for my mid winter traffic. Thanks guys.

[John Brooks]

So @Horton , did you have a role in CottonGate to help fund your Christmas holiday? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Horton]

@John Brooks ya know the whole thing is so freaking unfortunate I shouldn't joke at all. Evil Me is always happy when traffic is good but I would trade the bump in traffic for this fiasco to magically undo itself.

[skidawg]

It would be very simple to undo, it may crush a few egos, but they will re-inflate eventually.

[Jordan]

give someone a hammer, and eventually everything looks like a nail....

[Roger]

@A_B - "Are we to bring in Russian drivers for every tournament of importance so you don't get a friend of the skier driving?"

 

I think one of the best compliments I ever got was the first time I drove Master Men at Palm Bay. One of the skiers was John Shealy who I ski with regularly at Okeeheelee. Gordon West was Chief driver. Someone asked Gordon how my boat path looked to which he responded "His boat path is fine, what I really liked is that it didn't change when John skied."

 

I have reviewed literally thousands of boat paths from our tournaments. It is readily obvious if a driver favors a particular skier or not (or if they intentionally wrong side a skier they do not like). Our site will not tolerate such driving, period.

 

I ski and drive primarily at Okeeheelee and Palm Bay and have not seen this type of issue with the local drivers. I have seen this from one or two visiting drivers and appropriate steps were taken.

[MarkTimm]

@LeonL @thompjs my point in regards to Zero Off is more about the lack of an independent timing system that is not part of the Zero Off computer. In my simple mind there is a difference between calibration and measurement.

@horton sorry for the off topic just wanted to clarify my point in the original thread.

[Stevie Boy]

Why wasn,t the boat path issue picked up during the event and quite a important question would be how far back can a event be scrutinised ie, one day, one month, one year, two years, maybe if somebody dug around enough there might be a of host titles that could be with drawn, round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows.

[Than_Bogan]

Wow my relationship with local drivers seem so boring. They try to drive straight; I try to ski around buoys.

[Than_Bogan]

Yeah, we use an end-camera for educational purposes at one of the major sites (where it's actually practical to do so). Never noticed anything very interesting except helping some people drive better.

[bishop8950]

There is a lot going on in this thread and I am not sure what anyone hopes to achieve?

 

Sounds like @skidawg (and others) are disappointed that political influence and lack of process led to the wrong at least interim results. If so, that sucks and I hope its corrected.

 

As for driving, I don't have remotely enough info to comment on the situation/s that brought it all up.

 

Generally, I hope we all do everything we can to protect the integrity of events, USAWS and otherwise. No one should help skiers beyond the limits we are allowed and no more one skier than the next. All good drivers know the difference. Having end course available is relatively cheap and the only way you can start to keep an eye on things. From there it should be socially unacceptable for anyone to observe favoritism. From there the Chief Driver and other officials can address as needed. For records we have a review process that seems to work right? So we can all chip in to drive up integrity which is far better than quitting.

 

I would be shocked if anyone driving the tournaments I ski are helping anyone in an unfair way. I pick these events because I know the officials/culture and I know it will all be legit. Its disappointing although not surprising it happens elsewhere and we should do what is practical, fair, and not politically motivated to operate to the highest standards we can. If the driving and officiating goes completely south we will have nothing left.

[Jody_Seal]

For what it's worth!

 

Every one need's to understand that qualifications for nearly every championship event in our sport from regional level on up to world championships have a rankings list number needed to qualify for these championship events. "IF" there is driver intended manipulation involved in our sport then this impacts the rankings list at both the top and bottom of the list. Manipulation helping one skier going up the list will knock down another on the list.

Driver manipulation because of these rankings lists should not be tolerated. Drivers have been contacted in the past and penalty's have been applied.

 

All this is not new information nor has anyone been blind sided. AWSA as well as IWWF have policy's and procedure's that are in place and followed. The ethic's committee as well as the drivers and technical committee's along with both AWSA executive committee and AWSA BOD and USAWS and our international region (PANAM region) Rep's are involved with deciding "IF" and when there was intentional driver manipulation for skier enhancement in specific cases / events. This is and can be a time consuming system for policing our sport. Most all of these people have real job's and lives outside of waterskiing.

 

Regional winter meetings are right after the first of the year plenty of info and direction will be provided on these issues as well as the availability for those affected to state their case and be heard.

 

Not for profit, volunteer, Amateur Sport!!

[Texas6]

This sounds terribly unfortunate. I'm with @Than in that I've never for a second suspected that a driver or judge has done me any way but fair and with their best possible effort. Even guys I hadn't always seen eye to eye with off the lake have been nothing but respectful on the water. I hope you guys get this resolved

[ntx]

I wonder if slalom balls intentionally set WAY lower than allowed by the rules, are any less of a violation? If people want to find something to %itch about, they can always find it.

[jdarwin]

@Jody_Seal "AWSA as well as IWWF have policy's and procedure's that are in place and followed."

 

And if they weren't? What is the recourse?

[jdarwin]

@bishop8950 - Kevin, I agree 100% with your statements. If a driver is not performing to the standard, procedures are in place to deal with that - assuming those procedures are followed. But, let me propose a hypothetical for you; You enter two tournaments at the same site on the same weekend. There are 5 different drivers pulling approx. 33 skiers each day - 99 pulls per day. Everything is fine on Saturday. On Sunday, there is determined that one of the drivers was driving "out of spec" and the sample involved ONE ROUND and maybe 10 skiers in the tournament on THAT day. Should the scores for ALL skiers behind ALL drivers for BOTH days be removed from the scorebooks? What about the skier who skied just Saturday? He wasn't affected by this at all! If you believe the scores should be removed, shouldn't we apply the same criteria to ALL tournaments including Regionals and Nationals. If one driver is determined to be driving "substandard", shouldn't the entire event be erased? This is VERY dangerous precedent that has been set. And, it has far-reaching ramifications.

[skidawg]

This is not about drIving, there are procedures in place to address driver issues. This is about the lack of usaski to follow the process that's is in place to address these issues and the poor judgment involved with handing down unjust punishment

[bishop8950]

@jdarwin I agree your hypothetical situation sounds messed up wrt fairness and due process. No, I do not believe all scores should be removed for the weekend. If they were, it begs your question about consistency with all tournaments. Lastly, my post was not directed at you or the events at Cottonwood and I should have been crystal clear about that. It was in response to other posts about driving in general.

 

@skidawg you started a thread not specifically about driving, but it did come up and that was what I responded too. Your original questions regarding the process (or lack of) and results sound concerning at the least.

 

Is this situation finalized or still in motion? Are the powers that be working (or re-working) on the final outcome?

[skidawg]

Situation is in process, the ball is in the hands of those who made judgement errors

[Wish]

If there were judgement errors, or policy and procedures not followed as suggested, what is the recourse for any and all involved? That would be a good bit of info to post here for any tournament director to know.

[Wish]

Hmmmmm.. crickets....

[MISkier]

I would guess the recourse is not to have any AWSA/USA Water Ski tournaments and to separate from that governing body.

[bigtex2011]

Maybe the resolution should be records, complaints, videos etc go thru the region first. Then forward to National. If national has a problem then they take it up with the regionals original decision. Most of this could have been resolved with a phone call or calls and a follow-up email.

[jdarwin]

@Jody_Seal - as a National Director of AWSA, thank you for composing and posting in a public forum that AWSA/IWWF has specific policies and procedures in place and that they "are followed". Very valuable.

[skiboat38]

Everyone needs to read these posts from the beginning....this is EXACTLY what is killing this sport. It is a political hobby from the top down, including boat manufacturer's, ski manufacturers all the way down to personal agenda's because someone's kid can't beat another's across the state or some old retired fart that feels the need to control something. I sat in countless regional meeting watching and participating in hours of arguments on rules and procedures only to find out that once it passed and someone ran the numbers it would only affect one person or family in the entire region and it just so happened to be the person arguing it. It has become too much of a headache to even attempt to have a tournament with so many sticking their paws in the cookie jar and for what???? A hobby we are supposed to enjoy!

[jdarwin]

@skiboat38 - hopefully for most of us, the "sport" and AWSA are mutually exclusive. But, if my business was losing 8-10% of its customer base year over year, I would be focused on ways to bring in more customers and retain the ones that remain - oh, and not giving them a reason to question why they are doing business with me.

[Ralph Lee]

There's the Pro's, the Big Dawgs, then the rest of us. (Regardless of the sport) there is usually more drama and controversy involved with amateurs then with the pros. That's F-ing funny!!

 

Competing in different amateur sports my whole life, I can safely say where you find talent just below great, you find the most fragile egos on the face of the earth!! Same is true in life.

 

As a skier considering diving head first into the tournament scene, this is ALL very disconcerting!

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee brings up a concern of mine. This controversy is real. Skiers and officials are vigorously debating the the details. I believe that for the average USAWS skier this will not impact 99.999% of the events they will ever attend.

 

I am not diminishing the scope of this controversy but we are really defeating ourselves if we discourage skiers from attending tournaments. I do not think anyone wants to see that.

[klindy]

@Horton That's true except that the officials, sites and others involved impact many, many skiers every year by their volunteering their time, lakes, and money to either put on tournaments, officiate at tournaments and volunteer for other committees and boards which all work toward the success of the sport. So it may have more of an impact than you perceive.

[Horton]

@klindy I do understand. I just don't want someone who has never skied a tournament to read this thread and decide to not give tournament skiing a try. This controversy is real but I would like to minimise the additional collateral damage. I do not want this web site to facilitate additional damage to the sport.

[Wish]

That's why I think it would be nice to see some publications of rules governing both an accusation and recourse for the accused. I think the lawlessness of how this all sounds is off putting and damaging. This thread could even lead to meaningful reform if there is a rule that is in question.

[thager]

It's the way it is now. Guilty until proven innocent!

[gregy]

I agree with @Ralph Lee that none of this would ever cross my mind while at a tournament. But if it would be a score pulled that was a difference of not qualifying for nationals or regionals it would be very disconcerting.

[teammalibu]

So far the most disturbing thing I have read in this is @OB1 saying he has been off sided by someone that he doesn't see eye to eye with!

[Ralph Lee]

Every Athlete should base their integrity off of the "my ball moved" scene from The legend of bagger Vance movie.

 

My AWSA status certifies me to pull practice rides only, but if I upgraded to pull tournaments I'd give my 100% best effort as 99.9% of us would. Saying "Your a sneaky cheater!!" Is how people got themselves killed in the old days. The proof better be undeniable!

[skidawg]

@Ralph Lee to prove cheating is an entire different thread, it would take hours of review of boat paths over years to build a case and there has to be intent. Why? This whole issue is about El Presidente and the special committee involved not following procedures of due process. Why do i want to spend hundreds of hours each year getting my children into a sport that doesn't chose to follow guidelines in place, why travel weekend after weekend spending thousands of dollars chasing orange bouys, when my time and efforts can lead my children down more profitable paths? After a lifetime of tournament scores, a thought occured to me this morning. I don't need a governing body to ski. They need me.

[gmut]

@skidawg in biblical times we had the governing body "Sanhedrin" and then we had the "Pharisees"self righteous members or hypocrites and well then, we all know what happened to Jesus....don't we.

[skidawg]

@gmut ..... fully understand where ur at here. This is why tournament skiing is like beating a dead horse

[jcamp]

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