Judging a driver...

[Chad_Scott]

For the discussion of drivers and pattern driving. My understanding that it is similar to what @MISkier described. Driving from boat guide to boat guide with the intent of making the course narrower in favor of the skier. I know one of the things that they look for when approving or disapproving records is the existence of a driver ping ponging down the lake to give the skier an advantage. As said in the rule. The tolerance is there for human error. Not meant to be aimed for by a driver to aid the skier. At some point common sense has to be applied. I agree with @MISkier its pretty obvious to identify the pattern driving when you see it

 

 

[klindy]

@Chad_Scott that's why there are two criteria to approving a record - 1) maximum deviation from centerline is 20cm at any one buoy and 2) the cumulative deviation at the buoys must not exceed a max. So for instance for a score of 1 the max cumulative deviation is 20cm decreasing with every successive buoy until the skier scores 6 and the max TOTAL cumulative deviation is 49cm. Therefore if you give the skier the max at 1 and 2 you don't have a lot to give the rest of the way down the course unless you "wrong side" a skier at a few buoys to get a little "space" back.

 

Maybe a certain number of the passes should be measured for every driver at every tournament? If so then who decides which passes? I'm sure if you had a tough boat or challenging weather or a particularly "mixed up" group of skier with widely varying styles the results might not look too hot for even the best driver.

[Chad_Scott]

@klindy That's why you TC guys get the big bucks. I am just providing my experiences and opinions as a driver. You are probably best suited to describe what is looked for when looking for pattern driving and or the process of disapproving records As @LLUSA said each skier requires different input from the driver. I believe most good drivers are shooting for a straight boat path and using the tolerances for instances when you have a situation as you described with boats, different skiers ability etc.

[klindy]

@Chad_Scott the job as TC is completely objective. It's either in tolerance or out. Either the course is right or we fix it. Either your handle is within tolerance or you score 0. So the rule book describes that we can watch the end course video and of the boat moves more than 20cm (almost 8") we pull the skier again. (Nothing about cumulative deviation except to verify a record). So who am I or is anyone else to accuse a driver of purposely giving the boat to the skier. Skip outside the line a few times and we'll have a quick chat to see if there's a problem.

[Wish]

Aren't the tolerances literally set up so a driver cannot move the boat to far one way or the other regardless of what it does for the skier or to the skier?? Seems a pointless meeter to have if in-tolerance can be subject to being called cheating if that is what happens. Out of toleranc, score does not count. Pretty sure we can all agree there. Seems the meeter for tolerance needs to be changed vs trying to, what seems like guessing at what is pattern driving to help a skier or pattern driving to just stay dead center. And the term "how the skier feels" to the driver and his or her technique to deal with it mucks it up even more from where I'm sitting. If it's in..its in. And if any veriable to the skier outside of driving comes into play, that guess becomes even more grey in my mind. Don't drive or judge but this is becoming a head scratcher. Am I missing something here?

[gregy]

Hard to put a measure on intent which to me seems like is needed to really say something is cheating.

[Horton]

@wish The tolerances are a margin of error. There is an ideal path and a range of error that is allowed. The drivers job is to stay as close to center as possible. Intentional use of the tolerance to benefit the skier is cheating. It is no different than setting the balls as narrow as possible or ropes as long as possible.

 

Guys like @Chad_Scott can "saw on the wheel" and swing the back of the boat around to give the best pull possible while keeping pylon right down the center. That is how it is done.

 

When guys like me ping pong down the boat guides like a wino looking for another bottle of Thunderbird it is not because we are cheating - it is because we drive poorly. That is not cheating.

[Wish]

@Horton agree accept with; intentional use of tolerance to benafit the skier is cheating.

 

Tolerances:

an allowable amount of variation of a specified quantity, especially in the dimensions of a machine or part.

 

Margins of error:

an amount (usually small) that is allowed for in case of miscalculation

 

That to me means you tolerate/allow some margin of error within the tolerance regardless. If there is deviation inside tolerance, some here are saying that deviation can be looked at as cheating, while others are saying its a way to drive best for a particular skier vs another and is not cheating. I'm scratching my head thinking how can you have it both ways?. If the driver is out of tolerance, the skier is either helped or screwed yes? And a the benefit of the doubt goes to the skier for a reride or the score is pulled, yes? I'd like to think it is that simple or at least should be.

 

With all do respect how to stay in tolerance or in the margin of error is irrelevant to the question. Who is better or worse at driving as well. Pattern driving seems to be the buzz word for calling someone a really great driver or a cheater. If it can be had both ways, I would think things need to either be redefined/better defined or the meeter has to change with in the rules IMHO. I'd think we would want to avoid what seems to be a grey area and more subjective like judging figure skating. The Russians only give a 6 out of 10 for that pass...humor font. Just trying to understand. :smile:

[Wish]

...which leads to another question. If a driver can be accused of cheating as described so far as to "help" a skier, has there ever been a driver brought up on "charges" for intentionally screwing a skier or is that chalked up to just bad driving?

[Horton]

@Wish

I firmly believe in the spirit of the rules variations/tolerance/margin of error (what ever you call it) - is allowed only to allow for driver error or difficult circumstances.

 

The reality is that there is driver input required to keep the boat down the middle. The challenge for the driver is to keep the boat in the middle without significant right to left deviations AND without disadvantaging the skier by steering the boat out of rhythm.

[Wish]

@Horton agree. Apologies if you thought I was trying to undermine or lesson the spirit of the rules. Not my intent. Clarification was. Maybe that is not possible. I do not know.

[Horton]

@wish for those of us that are older than dirt (or almost as old as artist known as @Dirt) who skied in the the hand drive days.... there were drivers who could put the times at the very bottom of the tolerance all day long. To me that offers a easier way to think about what is and what is not driver cheating. Those drivers had the ability to give actual times but chose to use the tolerance to the advantage of the skier. That is cheating. I do not see how a boat path that is to the left on 2/4/6 and right at 1/3/5 is not cheating provided the driver has the ability to be closer to the center.

 

[Chad_Scott]

I agree with Horton the tolerances are in place for human eerror or. They are not in place for the better drivers to manipulate I challenge anyone to not need some tolerances to pull some of the bigger skiers without them. It is easy to get hit hard and need The tolerances. It is partially the reason we moved to speed control Although @klindy said for the tc it is black and white. It is in tolerance or not. I can assure you that the TC and chief judges at most events would not approve of me or any other driver using the 20cm tolerance right and left throughout the course to enhance skier performance. We are all rated drivers and know that we are to drive as close to center as possible.

[Horton]

@Chad_Scott

 

As I wrote the above posts I could see how someone could read them and think I was being hypocritical. On one hand it is not ok for a driver to move right or left to benefit the skier but it is ok to use steering to “tension the line” in rhythm with the skier. Being in sync with the skier is clearly to the skier's benefit. I do not think anyone disagrees with this but would be hard to explain to non-skiers.

 

To go a step farther, I read you talking about how you drive CP and Nate differently. I am pretty sure that is well within the spirit of the rules but I would hate to have to explain it to someone outside the sport.

 

How do we explain this in a way that does not feel like a logic pretzel?

 

[Jody_Seal]

Good synopsis Chad. Every one needs to realize that we are an amateur sport with really no recognized professional status level. We all go to tournaments and things happen that is out of the control of the driver. When it does we as drivers bare the brunt of the accusations of the situation. Most all of the upper level drivers I know will admit to their failure and hope the athlete affected will forgive and forget. I have watched over the years my kids get the raw end of both unforseen driver error and crappy driving. As a driver I do my best to encourage drivers to shake it off and stay focused when these things happen and also try and provide guidance to the ones that need it. When one goes to lower level class C tournaments you never know what you may get behind the wheel. You might get the world's best or a new assistant rated driver with limited experience.

Stay in the middle, be polite on the ends and be aware of who and what is on the end of the string .

There is really no penalty for poor driving except we as Chiefs know who the poor ones are and we do our best to assign....or not. For example I had a driver last year wanting to drive a record jump rd, I asked the gentleman when the last time he pulled a jumper was? Answer was a year ago!! Sorry!

Time to start thinking about 2017 ski season rather then all this cabin fever BS about driving. Funny we had these very same percieved issues back in the hand job days! Off to Chile.

[Chad_Scott]

It's winter time JoJo what else are we to do. Been raining in Louisiana for 3 days. I'm ready for 2017 ski season as well . As Ham Wallace would say I hate winter.

 

@Horton for those who may not understand what we are talking about, put them in the boat for this first time and ask them to pull you thru the course. It makes for a great ride. Lol.

 

I doubt anyone outside of NASCAR would completely understand the nuisance of driving a car at 200 mph

 

this thread started because a baller was looking for someone to provide some insight for improving driving skills to those already involved in the sport and looking for tips from others Hopefully my comments as well as other sr drivers like @LLUSA and @Jody_Seal and many other gave some good information on what it takes to provide a good ski ride.

 

 

 

 

 

[Wish]

ummmmm.. no..... With all do respect to you @Chad_Scott (truly appreciate your input), I started this thread and the questions and statement read as follows:

 

In light of the recently posted video of an unfortunate boat path, I have some questions with boat path and what gets done about a poor one..one that may not be that extreme.

 

1. How do you judge the pylon location when the head of a judge is clearly in the way? Use the judges head? Is it vid from stearn direction that gets used?

....I've seen stearn vid of a skier behind a tail wagging Centurian with the pylon pretty straight down the middle. ---ANSWERED---

 

2. How is it decided if it is cheating vs just sucky driving when I have heard that it is hard to "help" a skier on such a short line.? A sudden increase in scores aside, what really determines a cheat driver?. ---SORTA ANSWERED WITH SUBJECTIVE GRAY AREAS--

 

3. If it is cheating, what is the judicious procedure for making changes to scores?

---NOT ANSWERED---

 

4. What is the judicious procedure for reviewing further boat paths when one is determined to be out of line? ---NOT ANSWERED---

 

Looking for answers outside of the controversy and emotions. Looking for judges to chime in. It may be a good thing for current and future sites that are taking time and money to put on tournaments. Especially sites that may want to go from class C to an R. Hopefully good info and less emotions can prevail on this thread. Just looking for answeres, not examples....although hypotheticals that can easily explain rules may help.

[Chad_Scott]

@Wish I am not involved in the process so I can't answer #3. However #4 is probably a little easier. All boat path videos from record tournaments is supposed to be submitted to AWSA With that being said there is no judicious process for AWSA to review videos or boat paths. They are all subject to review by AWSA and the drivers committee Because of the requirements to submit video from record tournaments I don't think any additional process to review video is required

 

 

[BG1]

@ Wish I don’t think you’re ever going to get your questions about “pattern driving” answered because it’s a judgment call. I would bet that if the top drivers who are posting here were to separately watch videos of boat paths they would almost always agree if deviations were intentional because they have studied and practiced the art for decades and therefore know what they are looking at. I would imagine most good tournament drivers would also consistently agree. The rules clearly state that the tolerances given are for human error and intentionally using them to aid a skier is forbidden. I would hope that whoever has the authority to pass judgement on a driver regarding boat path deviations know what they are looking at and watch enough passes/skiers before passing judgment. The first time I heard the term “pattern driving” was before Zero Off when you had to guess how many rpms to add or subtract for each pass using PP. A tournament site got “called out” because their times consistently got slower as the line got shorter. Can’t remember what the “punishment” was. As far as the possibility that @Chad_Scott, @LLUSA, and @Jody_Seal could be accused of cheating because they drive Chris and Nate differently, it is actually just the opposite. Video would show the pylon very close to the center all the way through the course with both skiers. Forget the boat wagging. If it didn’t wag they would be way off center with the pylon, out of tolerance, and out of the boat watching from the bank. The rope is attached to the pylon, not the back of the boat so that is where any advantage/disadvantage has to be measured from. The difference in steering wheel movement between Chris and Nate would be split second and not obvious to the casual observer. So about every 2.5 seconds they would start their counter steer maybe .25 seconds later and every so slightly less aggressively with Nate than with Chris. In fact, if a driver drives Nate the way Chris needs to be driven and vice versa, BOTH skiers would receive an UNFAIR pull. Boat path would suffer and the tension on the line would be unpredictable. Keeping a towboat centered within plus or minis 3 or 4 inches without negatively affecting any of the skiers, which is what the top drivers do, is a remarkable feat.

[klindy]

@BG1 so ... if a driver was consistently (say 95+% of the time) was within 4" of the centerline you'd be impressed and consider that good driving??

[BG1]

@klindy No. If the max a driver is off at their worst buoy for an entire group of skiers in a tournament is 3" or maybe as much as 4", and they are aming at center line, they are probably within 2" 95% of the time. Any driver is going to get surprised or misjudge occasionally.

[lpskier]

In a sense, it's funny that a really good driver that sticks close to center, but not dead on, can be accused of advantaging the skier, while crappy drivers that are all over the place, or down one side or the other, are just fine as long as the pylon stays in a 16 inch alley. Why practice and get really good behind the wheel just so people can cast aspersions when you have a good day and pull a bunch of good scores.

[MillerTime38]

so let's say there are 10 skiers and the driver is familiar with 8 of the skiers. So the driver will drive differently for the 8 skiers because he knows what the skiers need and the two skiers the driver is not familiar with get just an average pull because the driver is not familiar with them. So the driver in this situation is giving an advantage to the 8 skiers and is acceptable?? Hmmm

 

Personally I don't care who is driving or how much experience they have. Did you get a 16.08 and are all the boat guides still attached? That's all I ask for.

[MISkier]

@MillerTime38, for the skiers I am unfamiliar with, I'll use their first pass to assess the driving approach to use. It's not perfect, but it is intended to help me dial into their rhythm as best I can. If all goes well, I'll be somewhat in sync when they reach their harder passes and wall pass.

[MillerTime38]

@MISkier should you be "trying" to get in sync with the skier or should you just worry about keeping the boat straight and let the skier get in sync with you? What happens if you can't get in sync with the skier?

 

From a skiers perspective I want the driver to be consistent, if you start 2" right of center at the 55 meter buoys I would prefer you stay 2" right if center the rest of the way through the course. Once you start chasing centerline you will be chasing it all the way through the course

[MISkier]

@MillerTime38, when I say trying to get in sync with the skier, I mean understanding their technique and attributes enough to keep the boat on the centerline without doing anything abrupt or detrimental to them. It is an "adhere to the path" and "do no harm" objective. If I'm not in sync, I won't be ready for the impact they will have on the boat and my options for preventing, lessening, or correcting that impact will be limited and, possibly, ineffective.

 

I don't want to match the skier's movements as much as I need to adjust to them to maintain centerline. That requires me to be aligned with their pass and prepare my response.

 

And, just staying consistent (2" from centerline in your example) still requires that I stay in sync with you. Your impact on the boat doesn't go away because I chose a consistent line that may or may not be directly centered.

[MillerTime38]

@MISkier I guess I don't think that much while I drive. When the boat goes through the boat guides I listen for the skier to just about finish his/her turn and then counter left or right as needed. I drive the same for every skier I pull obviously sometimes you need to counter more or less but that's it.

 

There is nothing more frustrating to me than after I ski a tourney round and the driver comes and tells me "what happened I was with you". Probably "trying" to be in sync with me

[MISkier]

@MillerTime38, you say "I drive the same for every skier" followed by "obviously sometimes you need to counter more or less". Those seem to be contradictory statements, like saying "I always do this, except when I don't".

 

You also say you "listen for the skier to just about finish his/her turn". I know I've listened to a lot of loud heavy metal music and my hearing is not that good. I only hear the engine, ZO beeping, and the boat spray next to me. I can't specifically hear the skier.

 

I won't tell the skier I was "with them" and their pass should have been good. I'll usually ask if they need something different from me. If the response isn't "let me pull the boat all over the course", I can probably adjust.

 

[MillerTime38]

@MISkier not contradictory, as the rope shortens you have to adjust your driving and change how and when you counter. Every once in a while a skier gets in deep and requires more input, skiers get late and that requires different input. I don't change my driving because of who is skiing is my point. It's the same treatment for everyone.

 

As a driver it is not my job to make sure every skier gets the perfect pull for their skiing style, it is my job to make sure every skier gets a fair pull. Once you start adjusting your driving because you are "familiar" with someone you lose a little of that fairness

[lpskier]

Boy, I strive for a perfect pull every time. My skills are less refined, so if I don't set a high bar I'm afraid someone won't get a "fair pull." And I assume you use fair as in treated fairly, not bad, fair, good...

[MISkier]

I'm not customizing my pull to optimize their performance. I am understanding their technique (and differences between skier impact to the boat) so I can respond correctly without being caught off guard and losing the path. When I ask for feedback, I want to make sure my reactions are not abrupt to them. Smooth, predictable pull with a good path is my objective - for everyone. I just happen to think you need to be aware of skier nuances to do that well, as some skiers are harder (or easier) to drive for.

 

 

[Chad_Scott]

@MillerTime38 I think you may have taken some of the words out of the intended context. As @MISkier said it is important to get a feel for the skier in the first few passes so you understand the skiers technique and when as a driver to anticipate the load from the skier While you say you give every skier the same pull. That would be impossible. There are no two skiers that turn and load the boat in the same way. Just because a driver is familiar with the skier doesn't necessarily put them at an advantage. To me it is about timing with who ever a driver is pulling. It's important to know what's going on from the pylon to be able to provide a good pull with a good boat path You can't just aim for the center of the course and not have a feel for what is going on behind you If that is the case the only thing you will struggle with is keeping the boat center. It will be a fight between you and the guy or gal on the back of the line

[Horton]

I feel bad for any driver who has to deal with my random rodeo behind the boat.

[ToddL]

This whole thing is a mess. What the hell?

 

First, every skier in our sport is trying to be their best on the best gear with the best setup and best boat settings to achieve their best performance. The elite skiers clearly do this to the max. They have the skills to get the most out of their skis.

So why they heck can't the driver do the same? It takes an extremely skilled or lucky driver to be able to ping pong the course to the skier's advantage while staying inside the tolerance. They are effectively driving a much tighter tolerance in that they must control their path right up to the edge of what is allowed in the rule book. If the best of the best of the best with honors can pull this off, then put them in the boat for records and at nationals for the elite. Go sport go! (Edited. OK, I'm not sure I really want to promote intentional swerving, but you have to admit only the best will have the skills to do this and damn they must be friggin' amazingly skilled drivers!)

 

Second, how the hell does one objectively define intent? Unless there is an answer, then shut up. Either define how intent will be measured or pull that guideline from the rule book.

I would expect that a pattern of recorded examples of swerving would have to be demonstrated. Patterns could be: a) swerving present more than a few times when same driver-skier combination is present, or b) same driver repeatedly recorded as swerving. Again, intent is rarely a 1-time thing.

 

Third, if intent can't be objectively measured, then provide a clear due process for initiating an investigating for suspicion of intentional swerving. How many recorded instances are documented? Is there a pattern? Is there motive or collusion which is advantageous enough to the driver for him or her to risk it? Then, what about a warning, probation, suspension type of series of consequences? Just the act of investigation should be sufficient deterrent to encourage the driver to try harder to stay centered. What about some sort of drivers jury with representation from peers and officials within the region but without too close of a personal bias. Again, if a driver shows a repeated pattern of coming under suspicion, then each inquiry will move that driver closer to suspension.

 

Finally, the skiers' scores. Pulling their scores sucks. But wait a minute, they did perform and the boat path was in tolerance! Scores should stand. Pulling/negating them is just too harsh. At most, possibly take off a buoy. But never pull them completely. Keep in mind that at most tournaments, the skier doesn't have the right or the option to specify their driver. What if I suspect that a particular driver is swerving? Can I reject that driver as a skier? If the rules don't allow me to do that, then the rules shouldn't allow my scores to be removed if that driver swerves but stays within the tolerances.

[ForrestGump]

That's a good point, Todd. Other scores have stood, when the record was not approved. IE, Ben Favret's and Beauchesne's.

[Horton]

Intentionally using the tolerance is cheating.

[ToddL]

OK, I get the "Disagree" badges for #1, but do you also disagree with 2,3 and 4?

[Drago]

2: good drivers know

3: that's what they do

4: there's a tough one. Skier gets s raw deal. On the other hand, so do the skiers that aren't there

[Horton]

@ToddL the ability to control the boat means the ability to cheat or not cheat. The ability to draw a near perfect path when the skier is erratic or extreme shows skill.

[ToddL]

@Horton - And the ability to intentionally approach but not cross the tolerance while a skier is erratic or extreme takes even more skill, regardless of the morality of that act.

[lpskier]

The tolerance is almost 8 inches each side of center. In the LM case, the average deviation is less than the width of the pylon, but to the skiers side. If the driver occasionally wrong sided the skier, it would be "better."

[Mrs_MS]

I'm just a girl, so they watch me like a hawk! Lol

I just try to drive straight and do my best :)

It's a feel for me...some have it some don't

[ForrestGump]

Horton, respectfully, any of the top drivers use the tolerance. How many times have I heard "Just don't let go" from one of the top drivers? I know I've heard it from guys who've pulled world records. I've also heard "I had room to play with after three because xxx didn't take me before that." The inference there is that the driver could go closer to the tolerances because he knew his cumulative would be good. EVERYBODY does it. The people that haven't, aren't good enough to be able to put the boat where they want when they want. If you have a tolerance, it's going to get used on purpose, whether that is the intent of the rule or not. Is that cheating? To say so is a bit altruistic if you ask me. Are those drivers thinking they're cheating? No, they're just trying to give the skier the best pull possible.

[Horton]

@BoneHead No. Everyone does not do it. The intent of the rule is that the driver should be as close to actual as possible. The tolerance is there for driver error or incidental movement.

[The_MS]

@Horton Most (98%) drivers dont have the ability to do it. Nothing worse than an overthinking driver.

Like @Mrs_MS says, you have it or you dont.

[Mrs_MS]

I believe you DO become in sync with skiers you pull regularly .... they would not let me pull MS at the drive clinic! They gave Jim Ross ... :)

[Roger]

@Mrs_MS - I'm sure that's because you can't drive or judge for a relative (should be ok in a clinic I would think). BTW, some of the best drivers I ski behind are "Just girls"...

[bigtex2011]

@Horton Not to veer too far off track. You know what the intent of the rule is. You know speeding is illegal. I bet we all go a little faster. If you know there is some tolerance and human nature is to use what is given. Well then welcome to the real world (opinion of course). The problem in my eyes is the AWSA leadership has decided to judge/punish a few drivers based on small samples in some cases.

 

More of my opinion:

 

Maybe they(AWSA) should send videos and follow up emails and coach Sr Drivers of what they are looking for. Maybe be more pro-active before they are willing to drop the hammer so readily. Maybe my/our or their expectations aren't in line. Maybe there are other motives. I don't know, something seems off at HQ.

 

Who is Watching the Watchers and who is Judging the Judges

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

@bigtex2011 I think we agree that how officials are monitored has not always been handled correctly by the national and internationals organizations. That is a huge tangled mess and I am happy to not be involved it it.

 

I totally disagree that "everyone does it". I speed in my car every day but I do not cheat at skiing and I never want my driver to cheat for me. At most of the Class C events I go to here in the West there is a camera on the boat path because the drivers are striving to give the skier the best ride possible with the boat in the middle. The idea that drivers in other parts of the country might be using up the tolerance intentionally is actually offencive to me. When I look at my scores on the rankings list that is my level of skiing. If you are telling me that skiers above me on the list do not actually deserve the scores listed than I understand one more reason that skiers sell their gear and take golf lessons.

 

I am not completely naive. I know it happens and I believe it is cheating. It actually makes me pretty angry. I work freaking hard for my scores.

[Texas6]

This whole thing blows my mind. I had no idea any of this was going on and can't see where or how anyone would want this? And certainly not collude with someone else on the subject....I'm with Horton