Warning - Shell Rotella no longer has gasolene engine designation

[skiinxs]

After buying oil for my 25 hour oil change on my '17, I noticed that the graphics on the 1 Gallon bottles of Rotella conventional 15W40 had changed. I did a detailed read of the label and found that they have replaced Rotella T with Rotella T4 as their conventional (dino) oil. The T4 does NOT have the S designation that is required for gasolene engines. (as in SN). Since I always run conventional oil until the 75 hour oil change, it looks like I can no longer use Rotella (unless I can find some of the older Rotella T) I know Rotella has been a popular oil for use in our boats due to the 15W40 requirement and thought some of you may be interested in this,

[Lieutenant Dan]

@skiinxs This is going to be a really interesting thread I predict! A quick "google" and perusal of resulting threads seems to indicate that the US Gov't has regulated that Zinc additives (ZDDP) not be used in oils for gasoline engines, only diesel and off-road racing. Therefore, it could just be that they cannot any longer get the "S" specification because of this. Probably is the same oil as ever but who knows. Also, I read that the zinc is bad for catalytic converters but some wags say that is only if you are burning a bunch of oil. Again, I can't wait to hear others chime in on this.

[Orlando76]

I did hear a few weeks ago that Shell lowered the zddp some. Curious as to why it's needed in the newer boats. I've always used high zinc formulas for my older flat tappet motors. I believe Valvoline VR1 20w50 to be amongst highest in ZDDP numbers which is what I use.

[Horton]

@Jody_Seal

[BrennanKMN]

I could understand this being an issue for newer motors with catalytic converters. However, I don't see the issue with older Chevy PCM engines. The 330 and such. Those engines don't have cats and they don't have a flat tappet cam, so really any 15w40 oil should work. Or am I totally wrong there?

 

I ran Valvoline VR1 20w50 or 40w in my GT-40. On my new to me Excalibur 330 I was planning to run Shell Rotella T3 15w40

[oldjeep]

Interesting thread here:

BobIsTheOilGuy Thread

 

And this picture from that thread explains how I have a bottle of T4 that actually has the SM rating on it. Back of Left bottle

 

 

 

[oldjeep]

@BrennanKMN - T3 doesn't exist any more except as old stock

[BrennanKMN]

@oldjeep That's why I said planning :p I haven't done an oil change on it yet.

 

What's is the difference between the left and right bottle? They look the same to me but different ratings.

[skiinxs]

@oldjeep Now that is really interesting. Both bottles I had were missing the SN. I found Chevron Delo in 15W40 that still has the SN rating. I almost went ahead and switched to synthetic early, but I really do like to get them to at least 75 hours on dino oil for a better break-in.

[oldjeep]

@skiinxs - the explanation in that thread is that they switched the name before switching the final formula? I'm not sure if that actually means that it still does meet the SN spec or not. Right now I've still got enough of the old T3 and old T4 sitting around for a couple more oil changes.

 

Good call on the Delo 15W40 - looks like that is readily available at O'Reilly and Amazon

[fu_man]

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[fu_man]

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[oldjeep]

@fu_man - that is the old document that still lists SN rating - few lines down from where you highlighted. The current spec page for the T4 oil no longer lists SN

 

[dbutcher]

My 2015 PCM 5.7L owner's manual recommends using SAE 15W-40 with classification GF-4/SM. Is there a difference between the SM classification and the SN classification? The Rotella T4 I just bought does not have the SM classification (or SN). I'm going to return it. For what it's worth, I called Shell's number for technical assistance on the back of the bottle and was told I could use it in my gasoline engine. The gentleman with whom I spoke, however, did not instill in me any confidence that he knew what he was talking about.

[JGray]

My wife works for Shell. I will write up the questions/concerns and see if she can get some answers for us.

[sunvalleylaw]

Well, I just changed my oil with Rotella T4, not even thinking about it. So I certainly will be interested in what the answer is to see if I have to change out my oil again. PS, my boat is old.

[DanE]

In general, do not use an oil labeled as a diesel engine motor oil only in a gasoline engine. There are cleansing additives that could be harmful in the long run because of buildup of deposits on the pistons. There is a reason why an oil is labeled C ( diesel) only and zink additive has nothing to do with that.

[oldmanskier]

I searched the web to see if I could find any old stock Shell Rotella T3 15W-40.

I did not find much on T3 but got several hits on Shell Rotella T 15w-40.

What is the difference between T and T3?

Is it ok to use T 15w-40 in a 2014 pcm 5.7 catalytic converter engine?

Thanks.

Oldmanskier

[oldjeep]

@oldmanskier the old T3 never said T3 on the bottle. It says Rotella T Triple protection. The main thing you are looking for is the SM rating on the label.

 

[Jody_Seal]

Link to FAQS

LINK to API.org Oil CategoriesSorry about the long link but the link button does not seem to want to work with Firefox!

[MattP]

@Jody_Seal I fixed your links.

[skierjp]

@skiinxs , curious why you don't use synthetic from the start? I always have and will continue. Every Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette, and Caddilac comes from the factory with Mobile 1 synthetic. In fact the Escalade and heavy duty pick ups have virtually the same engine as the Nautique 6.2.

Shoot I remember back in the 90s synthetic was a no no in a Harley, now it's the standard. Now the new Ford Diesels come synthetic blend.

[sunvalleylaw]

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w92/sunvalleylaw/BoatBoating/844182DC-563A-49D7-A089-6F91E6B3E36C_zpsv75tpuo1.jpg~original

Yep, sure enough. This is what I used on my '98. So, will have to read those links and see if I need to swap that out again. And now figure out what I will use now. I only ran the boat about an hour or so on it, so I doubt I caused any harm, but better get the cleansing additives that @DanE mentions out. Shoot. Oh well, I learned how to do my first oil change when I did it, so I will be faster now.

[oldmanskier]

Oldjeep thanks for the clarification on the Rotella T Triple protection. I will be stopping by some auto parts stores this weekend to see if I can find any old stock Rotella T Triple protection with a SM rating.

Oldmanskier

[skiinxs]

@skierjp Good point. When I bought a new Vette it specified only Mobil 1 Synthetic from the start, same thing for the Current GTO (6.0). Actually I have always been baffled by the 15W40 oil that PCM specifies going into the exact same blocks (6.0 and 6.2) that GM specifies 5W30 Mobil 1 synthetic only on their performance cars. Whether it is GM for the cars or PCM for the boats, they provide the warranty and specify the lubricants and I never waiver from their requirements. I do know the boats really seem to wake up and get a lot stronger around 100 hours, so if I started them on synthetic, my guess is that it would simply take them a little longer to wake up. (my assumption is that reduced friction on synthetic means reduced wear which means slower break-in). I do know that PCM mentions in their manual that they ship with a "special break-in oil" and not to change it before 10 hours.

[TEL]

Wow, you guys over think oil. Use what the manufacture says, viscosity is the most important thing. Do not change your oil the first time on a new engine till you reach the hours the manufacture says. They have special additives to help seat the rings, yes all engines now days are spun at the factory to seat the rings and to check vital engine tolerances before final assembly. T5 in Shell's Rotella is the new semi synthetic oil, the next generation in oil it is the way to go in all engines that recommend 15w40 not using full synthetic oil. One thing to remember if your engine leaks a little don't use synthetic oils it will leak more. Oh you Canadian's use Petro-Canada oil they have the newest plants and have the cleanest base 3 oils meaning they need less additives to achieve the same ratings for their oil (less break down more hours). As of this year they are owed by an American company.(I work for a distributor for several brands of oil)

[skiinxs]

@TEL You don't want to steer people to not using an oil that is rated at least SM (the latest is SN which is fully backward compatible) in their engines that require that designation. (That is the PCM requirement for non-supercharged applications, not sure about Indmar or the others) No reason not to protect your warranty when the specified oil is available:)

[DanE]

@skiinxs You can't really compare the specs for an inboard vs a car even if the engine block is the same. The inboard runs under a constant load vs the car that loads intermittently. Air cooling the oil pan can also be a differing factor in oil temp just as well as the lower amount of oil capacity in a boat. In theory a 5W40 should have the same viscosity as a 15W40 at operating temp but in reality a 15W40 can have a slightly higher viscosity when stressed. And obviously where a 5W40 would really shine (cold weather start) is of no concern for a boat. Granted a fully synthetic oil can stand longer service intervals but if you change oil every 50 hours there is no real benefit.

[dbutcher]

My post of June 1 had an error. The Rotella T4 I bought does have a SM classification on the bottle. However, it is CH-4/SM, not GF-4/SM. I think the C relates to diesel. There is no GF-4 anywhere on the bottle. GF-4 may be obsolete, replaced by GF-5. There is no GF-5 on the bottle either. Thus, I do not know if I can use this oil in my PCM gas engine or not. Anyone have thoughts? Does the "G" mean gasoline? Please forgive my ignorance.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

According to the information in the API link that Jody Seal provided above, the "SM" is the gasoline engine designation, so it appears that it doesn't matter what diesel designation it has unless you're putting it in a diesel engine. For gas engines it is the "SM" that is important. At least that is what I got out of that API site.

[oldmanskier]

I was able to find some old stock (SM rated) Rotella T Triple protection and Rotella T4 Triple protection 15w-40 (total around 6 gallons) this weekend at some auto part stores and Wallmart. This will give me close to 4 oil changes before I run out. Hopefully PCM will come out with a updated recomendation on oil for the 5.7 PCM in the future.

Note: The T4 you have to check carefully. The jugs look a like but some have the SM rating and some do not.

[oldjeep]

SM is a 2010 and older gas engine designation SN is the current gasoline designation

GF-4 is an obsolete designation replaced by GF-5

CH-4 is a current Diesel designation

[jetpilotg4]

So all this is making my head hurt! Which rotella oil do i need to go out and buy?

[DefectiveDave]

I think the consensus is that most of the new Rotella oil is no longer SM/SN rated and hence you shouldn't use it in your boat. An exception might be T6 multi-vehicle but it is only available in 5W-30. Also, if you can find old stock that is still SM/SN rated you should be fine (it should say so on the back of the jug).

 

If your engine requires that rating and you don't have older jugs of Rotella lying around, then the following oils seem like good alternatives for the time being:

 

Valvoline VR1

Chevron Delo

 

P.S. I actually ran my boat last week with new Rotella oil in it before reading this thread. I plan to change the oil before running the boat again, but could that potentially cause issues?

[sunvalleylaw]

Just looked at my bottle. No SM or SN. And yeah, I ran it last weekend like that. Only probably an hour or two at most running time though. Bummer. That was a waste of $45 bucks or so. As I now have an open bottle that cost me nearly $20 that I can't use in anything, that I used to top off. Oh well. Live and learn.

 

 

 

[eleeski]

Obviously one should use the specified oil in your engine. But I have never had an engine damaged by running the wrong oil for a while. Almost everyone reading this thread is changing their oil on a way more frequent interval than the Sierra Club recommends. Leave it in and change oil at 50 hours with the right stuff and let a real threat damage the engine (overheating, running out of oil - because the pan corroded, dropping the air cleaner nut down the carb, rodent damage, rust and age - done all the above but never had an oil related issue). Don't stress about numbers changing on the oil you've been successfully using for a while.

 

Eric

[oldjeep]

Carb? If your boat has a carb, I think you are pretty safe running bacon grease as a 15w40 substitute.

[jetpilotg4]

What about the Rotella T5 synthetic 15W-40?

[ForrestGump]

You are NOT going to damage your engine by using this oil! If you've got it, wait and change it out at the next oil change interval. The sky is not falling, chicken little!

[eleeski]

@oldjeep With the modern computers in the new boats you could probably run bacon grease as both motor oil and fuel.

 

I drove behind a diesel that smelled like popcorn - alternative fuel!

 

Eric

[sunvalleylaw]

Looks like the SM designation may have more to do with Cat converters, which my boat doesn't have anyway. Take this with a grain of salt as I really know nothing.

[oldmanskier]

I was looking thru my 2014 PCM 5.7 Catanium™ CES EX343 engine owner’s manual and could not find a reference to Shell Rotella anywhere.

Under oil recommendations it had the following:

 

Engine Oil Requirements (ALL Engines EXCEPT XS550)

Prevailing Ambient Recommended A.P.I.

Temperature Classification & Viscosity

Above 50°F SAE 15W-40 “GF-4/SM”

Below 50°F SAE 5W-30 “GF-4/SM”

 

IMPORTANT: The use of oils which contain “solid”

additives, non-detergent oils or low quality oils

specifically are not recommended.

 

This appears to allow any high quality oil that meets the Engine oil requirements stated in the owner’s manual.

Where does it say Shell Rotella is the recommended brand?

Thanks.

Oldmanskier.

 

[JGray]

@oldmanskier I don't think anyone's manual recommends Shell Rotella, but many do recommend Penzoil Marine which has unobtainium in it so you can't find it. I used Shell Rotella, because it met all the requirements (I checked with Malibu and Indmar), and was available at the parts store down the road and the only one that met the requirements in 1 qt containers since we need 5 qts. Most 15W40 is for diesels that require gallons not qts, I know I have one.

 

Oh and still waiting on info from the Shell on all this. She (my wife) did send the query to the team and did get some feedback from them, but had some clarification questions, and we have yet to get a final response. Once I do I will share.

[skihart]

Okay people, so whats the final verdict here? I need the executive summary and a final reccomendation on the Shell Rotella 15-40. Always used it and would like to continue using it in my SN with zr409, but this whole thread has me doubting it.

[BrennanKMN]

Find a 15w40 oil that has a SN or SM API certification and use it. It's that easy.

[fu_man]

This should work. No?

[blakeyates]

The SM or SN rating is for gas engines and the CJ-4/CK-4 is the diesel side of the spec. If SM is replaced by SN, that latter alpha 'N' means it's a later spec. Spec prior to SN (i.e. SM) are backward compatible meaning that the new oil supersedes the older lubricants. Go to www.LElubricants and look for 8700. Don't be mislead that the word "synthetic" always means better wear protection as that's not always true.

[maxpower220]

https://www.edmunds.com/car-care/top-7-urban-legends-about-motor-oil.html

 

Use the oil spec recommended in the manual.

 

There are some inputs on here that are incorrect. Internally, there is no difference in the car/truck and boat engine (i.e. bearing and ring gaps). Only Honda uses a "break in" oil, and it has added lubes, not the old non detergent oils of the 70's. Most new engines come with synthetic or synthetic blend oils as new.

 

Lastly, if you are on this site, you probably over maintain your boat anyway.

[sunvalleylaw]

@maxpower220 , my manual says to use 20w50. And no one is recommending that anymore. Now, the manual may have some sort of update somewhere, but the manual I was given by the prior owner calls out 20w50, a weight I have never used other than in my old vintage alfa romeo.

[oldjeep]

20w50? 20w40 is easy to come by - Quicksilver brand. That is still the weight recommended for Mercruiser engines