GM To Ditch The Internal Combustion Engine

[KRoundy]

I thought that the e-Nautique/196 was good for a few passes before the battery gave out. Am I wrong there? I could see technology improving to where an e-boat working for a few pulls in the morning, but for tournaments or pulling a club all day we'd need multiple boats or a way to swap out batteries (very heavy batteries with current technology). Boats use a LOT of energy to move at 36MPH. Cars/truck can lug around heavy batteries with almost no penalty, but ski boats need to be light and powerful. I think eventually we get there. Would LOVE to see a breakthrough in power storage technology that could make this reality.

[Southside_Mike]

I've had an electric car for the last two years and for commuting in a city they are fantastic - I'd never want to go back to ICE. However, we're a two car family and my wife has a diesel.

 

The problem I see with boats is refuelling. The sort of accelerating under load required for water skiing will drain batteries quickly. Not much chance of regenerative braking either. Once the battery is exhausted then a 24 kW/h battery in a basic Nissan Leaf will take 12 hours to recharge using a standard household level of electric supply. The 60 - 90 kW/h batteries you get in a Tesla over 24hrs. Installing rapid chargers is very expensive indeed and difficult to see them popping up at the average lake.

 

Battery technology may improve but the laws of physics place a limit on what is possible with regular electrical supply.

[Gloersen]

cool documentary.

clever engineers will prevail.

[ozski]

So when (not if) car companies move away from the traditional engines that power our boats it could mean we are in for some significant price increases as the V8 shifts from a mass production item to a lower volume niche market like marine. Personally I think hybrid is looking like the most viable option for skiers at this point and I really like @AdamCord 's thinking on speed control and how much better it will be to work with high torque electric motors that react instantly.

[Jordan]

It won't be very soon but I can imagine run times increasing and charge times decreasing to the point where this makes a ton of sense!

[eleeski]

The only nuclear powered vehicles in service are boats. Just thinking a little out of the box.

 

Eric

[sixball]

One of my ski partners works for a large well known company that has put tones of money and time into the battery end. About A year ago they returned a very large Grant because they found a block that some of the best could not get past. Its not the knowledge how but the ability to produce A component of what a battery will require to make it past the point achieved today. And if you dig deep its just not as good as it sounds. Also the emissions out of today's gas burners is very low and dropping significantly in the upcoming years. I wish you could see what is needed to do now just to get accurate measurements when I left the industry things were measured in PPM today its PPT Analytic' s mounted on huge shock resistant concrete blocks just so interments are not effected from vibration. This is not to say it's not going to happen the work is ongoing. I know both GM and Ford and I am sure most all if not all of the auto corporations. It just looks to be down the road more then many may like.

[vtmecheng]

@eleeski there's a reason the Navy only uses Nuclear for subs and carriers, it's crazy expensive and dangerous if not designed and maintained by the best and smartest.

 

So what if the V8 goes away. Next up is a turbo V6 with direct injection and all the tech currently in cars and trucks. All the power but less weight is exactly what we need for boat's. After that will likely be a hybrid to keep battery weight down. Still wouldn't need a transmission since the motor would be plenty to reverse, just a simple planetary gear set.

 

Just like the automobile industry, changes will be in small steps.

[pumpinpete]

Electric propulsion has been in use for some time now in ships albeit powered by diesel or gas turbine generators so maybe more hybrid drive could be the go or there is the other end of the scale in electric trolling motors. Beefy super version could be interesting. I say bring on electric. Fantastic power to weight ratio, odorless, less components, smaller package size , leave the boat solar charging when not in use , distribute weight of batteries to give optimum trim. Also pod drives as used on tugs have incredible manoeuvring ability with 360 degree rotation available. I see quite a few advantages.

[ScottScott]

I'm putting my order in now for the 1st ProstarNuk.

[sixball]

I want to see the Eco boost in a boat. Even the little four cylinder is capable of the power we need. The V6 on regular fuel pumps out 450 hp. on premium the new Navigator is in the 550hp area. With toque to go with it. Something like 480 ft pounds.

[scorban2]

@sixball I agree. Not sure if the stock cooling on the turbo would be enough under a doghouse. Would make that part more pricey if we needed something custom. As an engineer that works in off road equipment, the key to low cost components is to use something that the auto industry uses verbatim, not customizing/modifying it.

[Than_Bogan]

@scorban2 I would think it's hard to pass up water cooling when you're surrounded by water? So much heat dissipation potential...

[sixball]

I think it would be easy and not expensive to cool the exhaust system. yes it would be something not being used today at least that I know of. Like a wood burning chimney pipe you could use a exhaust pipe inside a insulator pipe that could be cooled even more with water. same with the turbos boxed with outside cooled.

[sixball]

I have thought about using a CC trans to reverse my rotation on my Malibu might as well drop the Eco in at the same time. If I still had our racing shop it would be a winter project. What one will do for a better wake! Or I could keep my ballistic cheep and easy. YA but nothing engineered! Don't have an issue with my wake if I am not skiing without a spotter.

[BraceMaker]

don't need to change trans

[sixball]

Can you expand on not changing the trans?

[vtmecheng]

Engine cooling in a boat by drawing water up from the surroundings is so much more efficient than the water-to-air heat exchangers in cars. Cooling an Ecoboost would be no problem in a boat. If you need to cool the exhaust just pump water around the pipe, it wouldn't take much at the temps lakes, rivers, and ponds run. I/Os have co-located cooling water with the exhaust for decades since they both go to the outdrive. Honestly, I can't believe the boat industry didn't start using the Ecoboost engine years ago to save on weight. Then again, a lot of low cost I/O boats still use that ancient Chevy 4.3L V6 with a carb and they aren't even coil over... 1985 want's its engine back.

 

In the end, the boat industry just doesn't move enough product to make big changes that are simply nice to have. Couple that with no true push from us buyers, via our wallets, to offer something beyond a big V8 and what you get is the same old technology. Sadly, it'll likely take federal and state regulations to push modern engine tech into boats. That's sad because the lighter and more efficient engines of today would be awesome in ski boats and the family bowrider.

[skierjp]

Would you really want turbo boost kicking in mid course? Sounds like it would be tough parameters to handle by ZO

[vtmecheng]

Turbo technology has come a long way. Now they have multi-stage and progressive versions that give a lot of low end torque. That's why they can be effective in trucks. The turbos would be completely spooled up before we are even situated and thinking about the gates.

[scorban2]

@Than_Bogan completely agree, there's plenty of water around the boat to cool turbos. It's just the cost of potentially custom water jackets on the turbos that's likely deterring the usage.

[sixball]

Yeper you don't even feel the turbo kick in. Its Pure power form the start. Even steady power.

[gregy]

The new ford V6s are kind of a pain to work on and require a slew of specialty tools. The GM 5.7 and 6.0s are hard to beat for simplicity and reliability. Cheaper too.

[skierjp]

Pleasurecraft, owned by Correct Craft just signed a multi year contract with General Motors. Pleasurecraft is one GM's largest buyers of V8 marine engines.

[vtmecheng]

The V8 is low cost and already marinized. Cost is King. I'm still surprised the high end models, $100k+, don't move to turbo models though. Lower weight means a better wake. Sure it may cost more to do the rare big repair but there are plenty of people who simply don't care if it means better performance. If that weren't the case then $150k wake boats wouldn't exist.

[Greg Banish]

Keep in mind that the wake barges that make up 98% of our "ski boat" industry are completely insensitive to engine weight. They keep making those boats bigger and heavier to perfect their surf wave. Don't look to them to drive low weight powertrains for our ski boats.

 

The only way they will see it our way is to offer the entry level wake boat a more fuel efficient engine (boosted 4 or 6 cylinder) that still makes enough power to satisfy their loads under ballast. Luckily, making 300-400hp out of a boosted "small" engine isn't too difficult today. It gets easier when you have an infinite supply of intercooler under the vehicle to help keep charge temps down where power is good.

[DW]

Ski and wake boats don't need advanced engine technology, loose emission specifications and little demand for efficiency don't justify the expense of bringing alternate engine options to this particular market. Even this forum offers boat price sensitivity threads indicating a lack of interest in adding additional cost to the boat of choice.

[BraceMaker]

@sixball - since you'd be swapping engines you could take power off the back or front (LT or RT) then mount up the transmission with the front pump to the direction of rotation you were wanting and from there you install the prop direction you want.

 

[eleeski]

@sixball I think most of our modern engines turn the same direction. The transmission determines the prop rotation. Swapping to the CC transmission might be easiest.

 

Older boats did change rotation in the engine. However, it was easy to switch direction on the velvet drive. Remove a few bolts, rotate the pump and replace the bolts. I did this successfully on my 76 Nautique.

 

The ecoboost looks like an interesting choice. But making it ZO compatible might be a problem. ZO makes a way bigger difference than any wake variations for slalom.

 

Eric

[BraceMaker]

Right - if you have a completely unique engine it can be easy to mount either end forwards is the point.

[sixball]

We will get and are getting the new technology just for the simple reason we will get what is on the market. The new GM has direct injection as most all of the industry now. It makes fuel control so much better and more efficient. The big hold back is the limited number of engines used for marine. GM and Ford will not make many engines marinized just for the cost with limited sales. If the need was big enough for more the one or two large manufactures we would see more options. I also don't know how much fuel economy you would see the Eco give in the wake world but I have no experience with wake boats. They have the power and torque but might not save fuel. I do know pulling large heavy trailers with the Eco you can get reasonable fuel economy staying at or under 65mph over 70 or more.

[sixball]

I think the transmission is much simpler. I would bet more cost efficient . Remember if it worked you might want to market something. Developing new parts is so costly. The Eco is something that would be fun to try but not cheep. With the weight change I think you would need to look at prop shaft angle to keep the hull working at its best.

[DaveD]

I had a meeting at GM the other day. We all had a good laugh about this prediction. Don't hold your breath on the death of the internal combustion engine.

 

Would love to see if they can increase the interior space by using a smaller motor with hybrid technology.

[RAWSki]

While it's all interesting and exciting I agree with @DaveD --- the death of the ICE is somewhat premature. Electrical power and charging on the water seems to be a bit of a safety concern to me as well. Hydrogen fuel cells OR even CNG might also be viable options time will tell.

[swc5150]

The ICE isn't going anywhere. They're leaving out the fact that the US power grid would have be substantially increased to handle the additional electricity needed to charge all of these batteries.

[DW]

Just to add some perspective to the last two comments, the boat manufacturers were fighting to make sure they scavenged the last of the old iron small block GM engines when that engine was phased out of production. Not exactly what one would put in the category of embracing the latest in technology. Pleasure boat manufacturers will be the last group to adapt to new technology for powertrains.

[A_B]

One would think Tesla would be looking into using their wheel motors in front of a transmission for boating. Biggest hurdle right now is battery weight.

 

My friend has the Tesla S. I thought it would be awesome application for a typical slalom boat. Tons of torque for 4 hours, take it home and charge it back up. No winterizing.

[Ckrueg]

I doubt there would be an issue with ZO. These engines all use cruise control with no issues.

[BraceMaker]

@A_B don't need a transmission - the motor bolts directly to the prop shaft and then you pick a prop pitch that the motor swings properly.

[braindamage]

I would think the surf and wakeboard boats would go electric motor first. They will like the weight that comes from the batteries.

[A_B]

Good point @BraceMaker ! Save some weight without a tranny. Batteries are still a killer. Tesla 85 battery pack is 1,200 pounds, plus motor(s). I think each motor on the wheels is a little under a 100lbs, so call it 1,600 pounds versus a V8 and tranny at what, 500 with aluminum parts? Quite a load for a slalom boat.. Come on Dilithium Crystals!