How much should a new boat cost?

[Horton]

Let me interject at this point that I think the real cost of almost new boats is often less than everybody thinks. A moderately wise tournament skier can get a one-year-old boat with less than 200 hours for a ton less than you might think.

[oldjeep]

Even with new boats, nobody (smart) pays anywhere near msrp. It is like saying jeeze who can afford that 51k truck - that anyone can walk off the street an buy for 35k

[A_B]

I ordered a 1999 SN Masters Navy with GT40, PP, shower, heater, radio, and custom Navy trailer to match for around $30K. @3% inflation, that’s just over $50k in today’s money.

Add a little extra for hi-tech engine and fancy dashboard electronics and $60k would be upper end. I don’t need a fancy dash and I know how to turn a key to start an engine.

[CBR51]

Agreed A_B. Around 50k

[Deke]

I'm curious what people think a new boat should cost. Keep in mind what you make and spend on housing, vehicles, ATV's, UTV's, Snowmobilles, Motorcycles, dining out, golf, phone, internet, TV, food, coffee, etc. Also do you make payments on your boat? What is a comfortable payment if you make one?

I'm thinking we're all losing site of how this thread started. It's really a personal thing but I'd say that @MS said it best:

It should not cost more then the truck used to pull it.

Kind of puts it into the perspective of whoever you are and what your financial situation is. It's all relative.

[Ilivetoski]

@Horton said it’s an arms race for the most expensive, more complicated, and more precision boats good for the sport....

 

I just graduated college in December. I have skied in tournaments for 9 or 10 years. People like me, will buy ski boats. If in 7 or 8 years all I can afford is a 2010 200 then I’ll buy it. Looking at the prices of both new and used boats, I’m optimistic thinking I’ll be able to get a 2010 200 for under $30K. If you want to finally kill what’s left of this sport, make sure a 15 year old boat is out of reach for most people. I have 1 friend right now who I taught to get up on a slalom for the first time this past week. Took him 2 tries to get up, was doing some decent wake crossings at the end of his set. He fell in love with it. He will be a good skier if by some chance I get him to spend some time practicing. I know the second I tell him a new ski costs $2,000 without boots, which can run $800-$900, and you can’t get a boat with zero off for under $30K, that will be a hard hill to overcome. I know some of you swear to the old 1998-2001 (think I got the years right) 196, but I am part owner of a club that uses one of them. They aren’t as good as the new boats and personally I wouldn’t pay $15,000 for one.

 

The super wealthy of this sport (which there are plenty of), don’t seem concerned with the price of the sport. When you price out all but the top 3 or 4% of the country, idk how you expect growth (I’m not some Bernie loving socialist, but the sport has to accessible to people). I’ve talked with people my age, and the consensus is we will be beyond amazed if there are tournaments anywhere in the country except Florida, Texas, and California when we are 40 years old.

 

Rant over

 

 

[DW]

Damn, I guess I am not getting a very nice boat...at least I can pull the house.

 

[ballsohard]

This is foolish, How much should a house cost? How much should toilet paper cost? how much should a shirt cost? These things cost exactly what the market will bear. If it made financial sense for any company to sell a new boat for $1 then they would do that, If it made financial sense to sell a new boat for 1 billion dollars they would do that. Logically neither of these extremes would occur but this just shows how redundant this question is.

[escmanaze]

It does seem silly that we should have to pay any more than right around $50k for a boat brand new off the dealer floor. However, that's the reality of living inside a sport that isn't really growing and therefore not really justifying new entrants into the market. 30 years ago the sport was growing and CC and MC were having to fight against Malibu entering in, and then Tige, Centurion, and others coming out with quality ski boats, but a little more basic that made for quality competition, especially pressure from the low end of the market.

 

One by one, the low end guys have had to exit because the low price business model works when there is high volume to support it. Malibu seemingly got themselves into the higher end, so they have outlasted the likes of Tige and Centurion.

 

If we had 2 or 3 or 10 times as many skiers on the water buying boats, I'm sure the Carbon pro would still be around, maybe the Tige 20i would still be around, and maybe that Supreme project we were all hearing about would have actually come to fruition. In that case, I bet a base model Tige or a Supreme actually could be $50k brand new off the dealer floor. But we don't have those large quantities to offer the manufacturers, so factories are going to have to exit the market, and generally, it will be the "value" based offering that will be the first to go because their low margin business model requires high volume to offset the low margin.

 

Honda needs to be able to sell a LOT of Honda civics in order to get one in your hands at $15k. However, Chevy never planned on making more than 3,000 ZR1s in a year anyway, so they are much better prepared to handle shrinking markets.

[6balls]

Slight digression...but if one doesn't ski tournaments...in the right situation one may ski buoys regularly having piles of fun on the relative cheap. If you don't need ZO...there are lots of great wakes out there. If you do need ZO you can get...and '08-'10 boats are falling into reasonable range.

[Deke]

@ballsohard right, "what the market will bear." But individuals can only purchase what they can afford. What percentage of your income should you spend on skiing? We are talking disposable income here, not just what it costs to take a boat to market. What if the "market" only bears boats that are too expensive for the rest of us?

[ALPJr]

This was considered a ski boat in Ocean City NJ back in the 70's. Went for about 4k with a rigged 85hp , trailer and CC package. If anyone made something like this it might go for 15k or so today. They use to fly by us pulling a barefooter while we were learning on two skis behind a 13ft whaler with a 20hp.

 

[oldjeep]

@ALPJr They do make a boat like that, although it is about 19K for the 18ft.

16ft is around 15k ;)

 

 

[sunvalleylaw]

I was skiing behind a 1988 Seaswirl outboard with a 120 Johnson until the end of the season a couple seasons ago. When I stepped up to my current older Response LX. Following the path mentioned by @Horton and others here. Skiing at private lakes behind others' boats, I would LOVE to be in a position to step further up to a very recent year Mastercraft Prostar. I love the layout and design of the boat, how it pulls, the wakes at my top speed and especially impressed with the wakes at slower learning speeds. BUT, not sure if I will be able to justify that for my own boat. I may instead choose to stick with my Response and ultimately re-power it with Zero-Off installed, to try to get all my training and skiing time similar enough to private lake training and competition. Then continue to contribute to my friend's boat fuel or whatever else he needs so I have access to that experience.

 

I understand the market, and the goal of the companies is to benefit the shareholders. I don't get why it seems to them that it is more profitable to price as they do now. But it has been going on long enough that it must be how the numbers work. The goal of opening up the sport to more of us is in the nature of the common good, not necessarily profit motive as determined by the market. Like having public parks and public access to water.

 

Still, even if those are the numbers, it would be nice if some boats, even if more basic (I can use dials rather than touch screens, etc.) versions of the new boats were available at price points so the young entrants to the sport like @Live2ski , and guys like me that can't sink that much money into an item I use 4-5 months a year up in the mountains, could afford new, or at least newer. (I guess I am a new entrant to the sport in a sense, getting into comps in mid(ish)-life). So, I stand by my previous price opinion as "should." Price should be similar to MSRP of a strong enough, good enough truck to pull it. 35k.

 

 

[Ilivetoski]

$50K would be great. If you could buy new for $50K, you could probably get a 6 or 7 year old boat for around $20-$25K. Could you imagine finding a 2012 boat without a crap ton of hours for $20-$25K?? Quick look on SIA most boats in that 2010-2012 are closer to $40K

[RINLE]

For most people it depends on the interest rate. I find myself around what I see several others saying $40,000 out the door no frills, base trailer.

[Chef23]

@Horton I am not sure what you consider to be a reasonable amount. One of my buddies bought a year old promo ProStar last spring with about 100 hours on it. Admittedly he did want some specific options in it (heated seats and a heater as we are in New England) but you were still talking 58K+ to find something. Part of it could be geography but he was willing to drive but not to California.

 

I know that what boats are advertised for and what they actually sell for are frequently different but I think a 2015 or newer boat right now from the big 3 would run north of $50K. If you go a few years earlier you can get a ZO boat in the 40s.

 

There is a 2011 Centurion with 1500 hours on SIA for $21,500 which is the cheapest I have seen to get in to a ZO boat. Not sure how a Centurion with those hours will hold up but for ZO it seems like a good deal.

[markn]

Rather than looking at price, look at "cost". I purchased for cash a 2004 196 limited for around $32K in 2004. ZO was added for about $3k in 2009. So my ZO boat cost $35K. Have used the boat for 13 years and 1100 hours. In 2017, the boat required a new engine due to over-heating issues caused by plugged cooling jackets. I evaluated the cost of a newer Nautique 200 vs. the cost of an engine replacement. After looking at the numbers, we replaced the engine and transmission (longer story) for about $9000. So I am $43000 into the boat in 14 years. Figure the boat is worth $25K so my cost of ownership over 14 years is only $1,285 per year. (does not factor in potential revenue if invested, but hey, this money was invested in FUN.) Fortunate enough to be able to buy a new boat if I chose, but do not see any advantage.

No question a 200 tracks better than the 196, but I run the same buoy counts at Swiss Ski School behind the 2017 Masters 200 that I run behind my 196. The only difference is I run A2+ on my older 196 and A2 on the newer 200.

Point being, an older boat with ZO is a darn good alternative to the price/cost of a newer boat and I do not believe there is a disadvantage in skiing behind older boats that are ZO equipped for slalom training. MWN

 

Oh, and #entrygatesmatter

 

 

[andjules]

It's interesting how many people on this thread (myself included) would like a Ford ski tug, not a Mercedes. And yet, over the last 20-30 years, the ski/wake/surf boat market moved way upscale, and every time a company has tried to make something with a little lower price, with a little simpler finishing or a little broader audience — from (wakeboarding's) Wake Tractor to the Moomba Outbacks to even the slightly-less Centurion Carbon — we didn't show up with our chequebooks (at least not enough of us did to make a difference). So we're left with this funny two-tier market, where the (financial) elite continue to buy the Mercedes (uninterested in paying a little less to get a little less), and the rest of us understandably troll the used market for the best affordable compromise to suit our needs.

 

We tend to discuss characteristics that help one boat ever-so-slightly stand out from its competitors (subtle tracking improvements, hole shot, response curves), but if all the manufacturers went bankrupt tomorrow, and all the boats made in the last 5 years were confiscated and destroyed, it would take our sport about 5 seconds to adapt to simpler, older times, and 50% of us would probably be relieved (and the other 50% would eventually come around).

[Horton]

What do you guys think it costs to build a boat including overhead?

[oldjeep]

@Horton - For MC their 4th quarter gross margin was about 28%. Which doesn't tell you a whole lot unless you know what the dealer is paying for the boat. I'll go with what see dealer cost says and say that a 78K MSRP 2018 Prostar is around 61K dealer cost which would mean that it cost MC around 44K to build.

[swc5150]

My guess would be about $40k for a typical Prostar, close to oldjeep's assumption.

[escmanaze]

@Horton I'm not sure that question can really be answered directly as "overhead" can be a very vague term to start with, not to mention that it is a very dynamic term with each incremental unit that is sold.

 

I understand where you are coming from. You are simply trying to show us that it isn't like the manufacturers are making these boats for $10k and selling them for $100k and laughing all the way to the bank, but "overhead" is just such a subjective term.

 

[bananaron]

I have had 7 boats the past yr and there are plenty of great boats between 2001-2008 that most of us would enjoy skiing at reasonable prices.Remember ballers the Gekko gtr came back in 2015 and those boats were in the 40 to 50 range and not many buyers.In fact a new 2015 GTR AT A DEALER IN CA. sold for around 32,000 in may of 2017.And that was a ZO 350 Indmar boat with some options.For me the older boats are perfect and its not just boats that are expensive.My 2004 Ford f150 had a msrp of 40,000 and today the same truck is around 55,000......

[DynaSkiPete]

More interesting comments. Thanks again. What is the lowest price anyone has seen for a new inboard? Not a demo or promo deal but a new inboard water ski boat. A new leftover is OK.

[gt2003]

@6balls , I’m not seeing many 08’s-10’s on SIA, Onlyinboards or elsewhwere. Do you have a secret source we don't know about?

[Chef23]

I don't think the boat dealers are gouging people but I don't know that for a fact. I have a 2002 Malibu Response LX that was purchased new for $32.5K. That boat was pretty much totally stripped I think the only option on it was a depth gauge. Back then a MC or 196 was probably close to 40K.

 

At a 4% annual interest rate that equates to $61K in today's dollars. I don't believe you can buy any of the big 3 stripped down for 61K new. I do think you could probably buy a Malibu LXR which is basically my boat for close to that price. I do know you can get a 1 year old promo boat with speed control that is much much nicer than my boat for that money.

 

The world has gotten more expensive and the new boats are much more fancy and larger. Given the limited quantities sold I think it has been proven there isn't a business case for less expensive tractors.

 

Everyone talks about it but I don't think people would be running to buy 50K boats with ZO. I am not sure what the cost of a new Centurion was but they aren't selling them anymore.

[Horton]

@oldjeep you should also keep in mind that slalom boats are going to have less margin than wake and Surf Boats

[oldjeep]

@Horton doubt it when you consider what you are getting relative to msrp. Compare a vtx to a txi and decide which one has the bigger margin.

[Horton]

@oldjeep msrp means nothing

[jedgell]

The margin $ will be lower for slalom boats, but I wouldn't be surprised if the % is about the same if not higher.

[oldjeep]

@Horton true, but from people i know who buy boats non promo I'm pretty confident that the profit margin(%} is pretty consistant across the product line. Likely that the % is higher on DD since most of them are customer ordered and not dealer stock

[vtmecheng]

I think the reason "budget" ski boats don't sell is, like some have said, because it seems most buyers in that price bracket would rather have a used higher end boat. This makes sense to me, the used buyer still gets a great boat for many years but at a lower price.

 

The real problem is the true long term consequences to the sport and boat sales. If people buy new, lower cost ski boats (like a Carbon Pro) then those boats are available used when it's time to upgrade. These are now even lower cost used than the big three are, dropping entry costs into the sport. A lower entry means younger people can afford to ski. As these younger skiers make more money they now buy more expensive boats, increasing sales for the big three in the long run and the number of skiers. It's a win-win. Too bad there isn't a market for those "budget" ski boats.

[6balls]

@gt2003 I only had a few minutes to search but put a couple links below:

 

I check craigslist, iboats, boattraderonline, onlyinboards and SIA typically

 

https://www.onlyinboards.com/Used-ski-boats.aspx?PartMakers=true&Distance=500&MakerName=2&Model=74

 

On this page is a '07 (pretty sure that promo year had ZO), a '08, and a '09.

 

Some here:

 

https://www.boattrader.com/search-results/NewOrUsed-any/Type-any/Category-all/Zip-55355/Radius-any/Keyword-malibu%20lxi/Sort-Length:DESC/

 

 

[scorban2]

In my opinion, the manufacturers have boats, and models priced the way they do to keep the used market healthy. If one of the big 3 made a boat (stripped down or not) that you could buy new for $40K, then some of the people that are buying the 2-4 year old boats would buy new boats. When that happens, there's less demand for the 2-4 year old boats at that price point, and they must lower the price to the next "tier" of buyers. This trickles all of the way down the used market then. Now, the cost of ownership of the top end boats is higher, and they sell less of them. So, they can cannibalize the sales of their top end boats with a mid range model, or keep things as is, and keep fueling a strong used boat market with a few new ones a year.

 

Personally, I think the used boat market is great. I have no issue buying something used, and likely always will. Conversely, others like to buy new. Without each other, we'd both be in trouble.

[Ilivetoski]

@scorban2 as someone who will be entering the used market for a boat within the next 7-8 years as a first time buyer I could not disagree more with your post. Look at the prices of used boats. It is 2018. You cannot find a 2010 big 3 for under $35K. Maybe if it has 1500 hours it will be cheaper, but I don’t care how well it was maintained, 1500 hours is a ton of use. If I am LUCKY I will be able to afford a 2010 Nautique 200 (and I will be willing to spend more than most 30 year olds would be on a boat). More likely than not I will end up in a 2008-2009 196.

 

The best argument I think you can make is the value these boats hold. But that being said, you still have to make the payments. If I took out a loan for a boat and agreed to make $500-$600/month payment, sure when I go to sell the boat it might be worth pretty close to what I paid, but I still have to make that payment. And not many people can afford to throw down north of $30K cash on a boat. Tournament water skiers are some of the wealthiest people I know (on average) and even most them take loans out.

 

The fact that I don’t know in 7 years if I will be able to afford a 2010 model year boat is a problem.

[Kelvin]

@DynaSkiPete last year Houston Tracker (a division of Bass Pro Shops) sold a brand new 2015 Centurion Carbon Pro 6.0L with trailer for $38,000. Now, that was a special situation. Back in 2014 they had hired a new general manager who convinced them to fill their lineup of boats with the Centurion brand of wakeboard/ski boats. Shortly after the dealership acquired this 2015, he left the company. The new GM didn't know anything about ski boats and how to market/sell them. She continued to drop the price as the company decided to discontinue Centurion. Still no buyers. Then one day someone suggested she list the boat on Ski-it-again and it sold within a few hours.

 

[jjackkrash]

I bought my 2000 American Skier used for $12.5k after getting crushed in the recession, installed stargazer, dropped in a stereo, put about 500 more hours on it over 6 or 7 years, and sold it for $12k when I bought a new left over 2016 SN200. I do prefer the 200, but one certainly doesn't need the really expensive equipment to enjoy this sport.

 

Here is some inspiration from Jack White:

 

[DynaSkiPete]

Sadly so far only one real price and it was for a left over boat. The margins on new inboard boats is very good for the manufacturers and dealers. Pontoons and aluminum boats tend to have the tightest margins. The potential margin on used boats at dealers has to be very good or the dealers I know won't do the deal meaning they won't take your trade in. They are all in business to make money, lots of money. Don't kid yourself that they are not. Dealers have high overhead costs to cover.

[ktm300]

Share. I know I'm merely being a master of the obvious but, you can't ski by yourself. Years ago I was in a club where nearly every member had their own boat under one of those tent type carports. Could only run one at a time on the lake. I think the boats are good values. A family could literally run an inboard for 20 years if they maintained it. The fun to $ ratio is pretty good imo. @Ilivetoski get a ski buddy to go in on that $21.5 Carbon Pro. If properly maintained, 1500 hours ain't nothing.

[BrennanKMN]

It's all about priorities and justification to me.

 

I wanted to get into a ZO boat so that was a priority. A better wake, driving, looks, gizmos over my 1997 Ski Natutique was not a priority. They weren't a priority because they were all marginal improvements over my TSC1 boat. ZO on the other hand was a huge improvement over PP. It was diminishing returns. I would have had to pay at least $12-15K more to get into a 200 at the time. A 200 just isn't worth that much to me. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Thus a new boat is even less justifiable.

 

People aren't willing to settle it seams. There are loads of inboards to be had sub $20K and to more then 90% of skiers here they will be more than adequate. Sure, if $60k is worth running a few extra balls then by all means do it. If you aren't willing to enter the sport with anything but a new boat that is your own provocative.

[Jody_Seal]

Here is some food for thought.

In today's inboard market you can divide the MSRP by 2.5 that will give you a pretty close approximation of the cost to the manufacturer to build the product going out the assembly door.

So $100,000 MSRP Boat cost the manufacturer some where around $40,000 to build in today's market. now again that is a rough number but probably pretty close..

[swc5150]

Playing devil's advocate here, and with all due respect, this thread is kind of silly. These boats are very expensive, specialized, premium products. I wish I could buy a new 911 for $50k too, but it's not 1995. I also spent $80 on 3 rides and a corn dog for my daughter at the state fair last night.

[Ilivetoski]

@swc5150 They haven’t always been expensive premium products... a guy I know works at the Ford truck plant in Louisville on the assembly line. Ford pays well for factory jobs, but he isn’t a wealthy person by any metric. He bought a ‘99 Nautique brand new back in the day. No way he could even consider upgrading to an 8 year old 2010 model now bc of price.

[BraceMaker]

Ya but that 911 msrp went up by 30k the boat msrp went up by 60. And let's not forget how Spartan Porsches were, they've gone from air cooled barely had heat with vinyl dashboards to ultra premium with not nearly the change in price.

[DynaSkiPete]

Interesting math below. I'd put the cost at 25% of the MSRP to the manufacturer for the big 3. They are doing volume so buying materials, motors, etc. for less than many of us small manufacturers.

 

Here is some food for thought.

In today's inboard market you can divide the MSRP by 2.5 that will give you a pretty close approximation of the cost to the manufacturer to build the product going out the assembly door.

So $100,000 MSRP Boat cost the manufacturer some where around $40,000 to build in today's market. now again that is a rough number but probably pretty close.

[RINLE]

DynaPete, not socialists here. I want them to make a ton of money. I want them to engage in R&D, sponsor Ball of Spray, give Horton a new boat to name annuall, sponsor tournaments, skiers, etc. I also want you to make a ton of money -- and to tuck an inboard engine in one of your molds and offer it for less than 40K. Will it take, off, who knows.

 

The next recession is coming. These mammoth boats they have been making all their money from will stop moving, the same way huge SUVs did. There will be a glut of them on the used market, and inboard ski boats will still have their market share for those of us that love skiing, until we dwindle.

 

We need to grow and get more people wanting promos, dynaskis, used SN and Responses, etc, Zero Off conversions, etc.

 

[Horton]

For the hundredth time MSRP means nothing.

 

Realistically I think manufacturers make between 18 and 22% and dealers probably make the same margin. If you do the math backwards and you're a smart buyer ( not the rube who pays MSRP) I think you realize the price of boats is not unreasonable. A business person working for a lower margin than that is not a very good business person or is a very high-volume business.

 

A fair price and affordable may be two different things. And that is why we have such an active and healthy used boat Market.

 

Now if you're paying MSRP for a new boat the dealer loves you and he is drinking super super high dollar scotch. You probably go front of the line for $300 oil changes also.

[Shell]

What isn't being taken into account is Brand Loyalty. @MS sited the Carbon Pro was an unsuccessful attempt to build what everyone 'says' they want. (A quality basic ski boat, analog gauges, Zero Off, quality motor and excellent wake-pull.) But when you put it out on the market you aren't going to convert many MC, Bu or CC fans --- they will stick with what they love even if it costs another $20K.

[skierjp]

This is the most ridiculous thread. If you can't afford a new boat buy a used boat and be thankful for the guys that can afford the new. At some point in the future that new boat will be on the market as used and may be at a price within your budget.

It almost seems that ski boat prices somewhat mirror what Corverte prices are. Funny thing about it though is I don't hear Corvette owners whining about the new price of the ZR-1 or the higher price of the new mid engine Corvette.

Who would have ever thought you could spend 90k on a pickup truck?