Taking Advantage of the Radar Vapor’s Unique Skill Set

[SkiJay]

Fast skis are wonderful in the way they sprint across the course for a nice, early approach to the next ball. But there are usually two tradeoffs for this easy acceleration. Fast skis are more likely to arrive at the next ball with too much speed riding precariously high in the water, and their flat rocker profiles require a lot of smear to achieve tight turns. High-speed, sliding turns are simply less reliable than the turns of slower, deeper riding designs that have more rocker.

 

 

Enter the 2018 Radar Vapor, the mullet of slalom skis. And by “mullet” I don’t mean “making a disturbing fashion comeback;” I mean all business in the front and party in the back. While accelerating, most of the any ski’s tip is out of the water, so from the boots back, the Vapor’s design delivers fabulous acceleration. Then when the front of the ski gets driven into the water through the pre-turn and turn, the Vapor’s tip goes to work in a way that is somewhat unique among current water skis—if the skier knows how to use it.

 

At rest, the new Vapor has significantly more tip rocker (upward bend) than the previous model. So the more the skier loads the tip in the pre-turn, the more braking effect there is. This ski has a huge set of brakes if the skier has the skills to approach the ball with the water breaking more than eight inches ahead of the front boot.

 

Then as the skier drops into their maximum lean around the ball, 2 G’s of centrifugal force load more rocker into the Vapor’s soft tip (one of the softest tips ever delivered on a modern ski), so less smear is required to deliver spectacularly tight turns. Here again, the water-break needs to be about eight inches or more ahead of the front boot to deliver this mind-bending turning power.

 

Admittedly, using the Vapor’s tip this aggressively takes a fair amount of talent, power and courage, but it’s there for the taking for intermediate to advanced skiers who understand how to work it.

 

This all sounds wonderful, but what about the rest of us mere mortals who are still sneaking up on the tip; a ski capable of delivering such high levels of tip pressure can be skill testing. Here again, this unique design delivers. So long as the skier isn’t stuffing too much tip into the water, the Vapor is “merely” a fast, great turning ski with the potential for even higher performance as technique progresses.

 

Knowledge is the key to getting the most out of this ski—regardless of skiing ability. I you understand how the 2018 Vapor’s tip works, you can strive to tailor its performance to your current needs. Want a quick, nimble ski that doesn’t require a ton of effort? Ride your Vapor with consistent balance over your front foot and it will deliver in spades. Need a big set of brakes and crazy-tight turns for those last few colors on your rope? Just move further forward on this ski to fully unleash the beast.

 

SkiJay

[Mateo_Vargas]

So what are the @SkiJay recommended numbers for the ‘18 Vapor?

[SkiJay]

@"Mateo Vargas"

I do video analysis for a wide range of skiers and not surprisingly, their personalized setups fall into a range, not a single set of numbers. The following numbers are a generalization of that range.

 

If the skier doesn't habitually use a lot of tip or is not comfortable with a lot of tip pressure:

Wg: 9°

Bf: ⅛" back from stock

FD: 2.450

FL: 6.955

DFT: .010 longer than stock

 

If the skier likes using a lot of tip:

Wg: 9°

Bf: ⅛" forward of stock

FD: 2.450

FL: 6.960

DFT: .025 longer than stock

 

The Stock numbers can currently be fount at: Radar Factory Specs

 

FWIW, Radar's current factory specs are an excellent one-size-fits-most compromise falling somewhat mid-range.

 

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@SkiJay great analysis. If you really want to make it work, add a cg fin.

[oldjeep]

Ok, so what happened to the vent windows? Now my 2017 just looks silly

[C5Quest]

What size ski are those numbers for?

[SkiJay]

@C5Quest

FD and FL is the same for all Vapors, so the FL numbers I've listed are also for all sizes.

DFT and binding settings changes from ski to ski, so I've listed how much to add or subtract from those numbers. I also included a link to the stock numbers for your convenience.

[ballsohard]

I have the 66" 2018 Vapor and I feel the same way about the ski, I'm at 6.965 2.455 .765. with the boots at 30.00. How much should I try moving my DFT? @SkiJay

[SkiJay]

@ballsohard

I don't know what you are trying to achieve with a DFT move.

Your fin numbers are definitely in the ball park, but your bindings may be too far forward. Binding location isn't about keeping the tip down, it's mostly about adjusting the radius of your turns by changing how much ski there is behind your feet. Moving forward increases how much ski you have behind you which reduces smear and increases turn radius. 29¾" is about as far forward as I'd go on your 66" Vapor.

[JAS]

@skijay . Assuming nominal body position and stock position reflex with RTP. What would be first ski adjustment to improve offside tip engagement. Onside seems dialed. Currently running stock short/deep settings

[SkiJay]

@JAS

Move the fins leading edge (LE) forward by either moving the whole fin with DFT if you also want more smear, or by increasing FL if you want less smear (cause this also increases fin area.

[ballsohard]

@SkiJay I remausered and it turns out that I'm at 29 3/4

[tjm]

@ballsohard Brooks W gave me these numbers for my 66. Likening them a lot.

.760

2.505

6.865

9

29.5

[tjm]

C

[SkiJay]

@tjm

You bring up a good point about the new Vapor. Where the previous model tended to favor long/shallow setups, the new ski is more indifferent between long/shallow and short/deep. And as short/deep setups go, the one you've listed from Brooks is a good example falling into the aggressive side of the range. So without knowing how you ski, do you occasionally find the ski's tip bites harder than you'd like?

[tjm]

@SkiJay No, I find it very consistent on both sides. Full disclosure I am on a Lithium as opposed to a pro build, and at 65 I ski at 32+mph. I found the long and shallow to be a lot of work. Explaining it to Brooks he suggested the above saying it should "free it up". For me it's much better.

[Lobonator]

@tjm I just ordered a lithium after demoing the probuild a few times. How are you finding the lithium so far?

[tjm]

@Lobonator I like it. To be honest I meant to order the pro but had a brain crash when I placed the order. When I got it I realized the goof but went with it anyways. I had a 2016 lithium so I guess “lithium” was on my mind.

Funny though, and to @SkiJay observation, on the 2016 I was long and shallow, the deep short just didn’t work for me. The 2018 was the opposite for me.

[Lobonator]

@tjm awesome! Do you still find the lithium quick crossing the wakes? How's it int he turn? Haven't heard too much about the 2018 lithium compared to the pro.

[tjm]

@lobonator I never rode the pro so can’t compare. The lithium is plenty quick though. It turns great with the settings Brook gave me. The long shallow gave me bus turns that didn’t finish as well.

[Lobonator]

Unreal! @tjm I will get out for a set as soon as my ski comes in this week and let you know if you missed much by getting the lithium!

[ballsohard]

The more that I ski on my 2018 Vapor the more that I realize that it loves speed into the turn especially if you get onto the tip of the ski approaching the turn, The addition of differential fin depth by way of adding two washers beneath the middle fin block screw makes the onside turn insanely effortless and snappy, this makes you early into your offside turn with a good edge change and a tight line.

[addkerr]

@SkiJay

 

What stock settings are you using as base line. The Radar site has a short deep and long shallow stock settings?

 

Just rode .775, 6.955, 2.45 on a 67. Cant achieve 1/8 forward due to not having a microjust, so its more like at 301/4.

 

These settings felt way more stable vs the stock long shallows but this thing is losing angle through the offside pull but with crazy slew offside.

 

I must say Iv been riding another ski for the past year and performance has got to the point that I don't want to ski and cant even run 22 at 34mph. Jumped on the pro and straight into running super early at 28 36mph. This thing is super fast but gives good confidence under foot.

[Horton]

@SkiJay I have to respectfully disagree about long shallow verses short deep. I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to make long shallow work on that ski and was never really comfortable. As soon as I switched to short deep I was pretty darn happy.

[JAS]

Where does new Denali come into picture with this ski?

[Hockdog]

Agree with @Horton, the short and deep setting woke this ski up, fast behind the boat and pitches you up on the buoy line better.

[The_MS]

Every skier is differant.

[Horton]

@ms that is the first insightful thing you have said in years.

[The_MS]

That’s insightful

[jimski]

@Horton what are your numbers

[SkiJay]

@Horton

Which ski did you not like the long/shallow on, the 16/17 Vapor or the 2018?

[SkiJay]

Setups are a LOT more personal than most people realize. Over the weekend, I set up a Vapor for a very good, lifelong skier who was down two passes from her norm while demoing a Vapor on stock settings (and again, I think the stock Radar settings are excellent). .042" more DFT later (and minor other changes), she was two full passes better on the ski the next set. Nothing in this thread would have suggested she try a change that Significant.

 

My point is, I'm never surprised when someone begs to differ on what a good setup might be. And it doesn't matter if it's Goode, D3, HO, etc. Personally optimized numbers can vary dramatically from one skier to the next, and êven more so when switching brands.

[jimski]

Went from the long shallow setting to short and deep today for two sets

-22 felt about the same

Big couldn't run a pass at -28 when I always do

Maybe need a little more time with it to settle into things.

I don't think I got a real good feel for what the ski was doing

2.510

6.840

.775

7 deg wing

72 deg water

 

[C5Quest]

Interesting. I could barely run anything with long/shallow. Deep/short was Money

[WBLskier]

Is this a significant difference on ‘18 design as compared to earlier years 2016 for example. Does same concept apply to 2016 lithium vapor maybe just not as pronounced?

[ballsohard]

How good do people think that Andy would have been if he was the same age as Nate is and had the modern day equipment and training that Nate currently has?

[ballsohard]

The above post was meant to be posted on another thread

[tjm]

@Lobonator now that you’ve skied the Pro and the Lithium what are your thoughts?

[Lobonator]

Precursor: I am just learning the course, and am by no means a high level skier, but freeski on good water enough to warrant getting this ski. @tjm still haven't got the lithium in the course. But have been out freeskiing on it.

 

Speed: I would argue that unless you are running pretty short line lengths at 36 the difference will be negligible. Lithium is still very quick cross wake

 

Weight wise, I held both blanks at the same time and could not tell a difference.

 

Turns: felt very similar, but the lithium was definitely a bit more forgiving of my sloppy technique. When I dropped my shoulder on the probuild, I got dumped hard on my face. Both are extremely stable

 

In most people's hands I think the lithium is an absolute weapon. Most people would not be able to tell a significant difference, unless they are very skilled and experienced.

[gregy]

I picked up a used 18 Vapor Probuild. I previous Vapors, 2015 and 2016. Only had 3 sets on the 18 so far and really like it. I ball parked the fin to the factory long and shallow. It has excellent speed out of turn which makes it a very low effort ski. I ran 8 passes in a set and could have kept going. On side is awesome, it might need some fin adjustments to optimize the offside but its not bad.

[ballsohard]

@gregy ask @SkiJay for some numbers, with his numbers my offside is insane!

[shansen345]

Set a PB on my 2018 Vapor Pro Build on Saturday. Love my ski.