Okay, Okay, I believe! I believe!

[DangerBoy]

To be perfectly honest, I've always been a bit skeptical that minute adjustments to the fin settings on a s\alom ski could make a whole lot of difference to the way a ski performs, at least for a skier like me. I ski open water only, usually 22' off at about 31-32 mph (our speed control is not precise at all).

 

Some of you may recall that last year, I asked for advice on what would be a good ski to upgrade to from my trusty and much loved '06 Monza. I was looking for something that would be better but not ski all that differently so it wouldn't be a big adjustment for me. I do most of my skiing during the 3 weeks I get at my cabin each summer so I don't have a lot of time to spend getting used to a new piece of equipment. Of all the suggestions I got, I went with @MS's suggestion to go for an HO V-Type and @Horton's positive review of the ski. Thanks for that @MS

 

So this June, I got a couple of early weeks skiing on the V-Type using the stock fin settings for the 67" which are below:

 

29.5

6.870

2.49

0.725

7 degrees

 

With those settings I found the ski to be nice and stable and predictable but it didn't turn as quickly or as easily as my old Monza. The ski was easy to ski but a little sedate and not what I had hoped. A bit boring and ho-hum it seemed.

 

Right at the end of that 2 week stay I switched so some settings recommended by @savaiusini which were shallower and longer and the fin and the front binding were a little more forward. Those settings were

 

29.625

6.970

2.450

0.74

8 degrees

 

Right off I could tell the ski turned easier but the ride was a bit more hairy. I was taking a lot more falls and that's something I don't usually do. It seemed like the ski was hooking up a little at the end of turns and that was pitching me forward causing me to OTF or to nearly go OTF a at times.

 

On the first ski outing of my 3 week stay at the cabin this summer, I decided to go for a third run which I probably wouldn't have normally done that early in my three weeks but my ski partner dropped out of his last run in some really calm water and I thought what the heck, I'll just drop in and try to make 10 turns or so and call it quits. That turned out to be a bad decision. Just after getting up, I swung out to the left and made a light cut in simulating a gate turn as if I was running a course. I went scooting across and hit the wake. The next thing I remember was coming up out of the water, after having been knocked unconscious or nearly unconncious for a split second. My O'Niell tournament jacket was completely unzipped and almost off me and absoulutely everything from about the waist up hurt, especially my back which hurt like hell. Even my hair hurt it seemed. It was all I could do just to get my ski off and get back into the boat.

 

My friend who was spotting told me I stuck the tip on the first wake and tomahawked two times. Basically, grip a barbie doll by the ankles, hold its head over water moving about 50 mph and then with a good firm snap of the wrist, smack its face into the wake as hard as you can two times. That's a good description of how I hit the water. I have no recollection of that. All I remember was hooking my gate turn, getting to the wake and then coming up out of the water stunned and in major pain. It was the worst fall I've ever had in over 40 years of skiing by far.

 

When I got out onto the dock I had to go to my hands and knees 'cause my back hurt so bad. Eventually, I could stand. Our tradition is to follow up every early morning skiing venture with coffee and Bailey's on the dock and for some reason after a couple of those my back seemed to feel a little bit better. ;)

 

I figured that all I had done was pull some muscles in my back so it was not too serious. It just hurt. I live for those 3 weeks of skiing at my cabin so there was no way I was going to let that crash and a little back pain keep me from skiing if I could help it so I continued to ski for the rest of the vacation albeit relying heavily upon the miracle that is extra strength Vitamin I (Ibuprofen) which I was taking every four hours or so.

 

A day or two after that bad fall I had another nasty OTF coming out of an off-side turn which also may have knocked me out for a split second or nearly knocked me out. That one also hurt and jarred my back a bit. A day or so after that I had another fall that was jarring to the torso but not an OTF.

 

All this falling and taking OTFs was very unusual for me as I typically hardly ever fall and when I do it's often only because the rope has popped out of my hands just as I'm finishing a turn. I never take hard falls that hurt or put me at risk of injury but that ski was beginning to scare me and I was starting to fear crossing the wake, especially coming off an off-side turn.

 

At that point, I decided I needed to change the fin settings (probably should've done it sooner) so I went to the settings @Horton said that he had preferred on the V-Type. Those were as follows:

 

29.50

6.875

2.490

0.725

8 degrees

 

So, the front binding a little further back, the fin a little shorter and a little deeper and a bit further back. But each change was only a few hundredths of an inch. How much difference could that possibly make to me? A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

 

Within two or maybe three cuts on that setup I could sense a huge difference. The ski seemed completely different! It still turned way quicker and easier than it did with the stock settings but I could make the ski do what I wanted, when I wanted and it was now much more predictable and stable feeling than it was on the second set of settings I tried. It was no longer hooking up at the end of turns pitching me forward and somehow I instinctively knew I no longer had anything to fear crossing the wake. All of a sudden, I felt much more comfortable on the ski, my confidence was coming back and my fear/mistrust was disappearing. In that one run, it seemed like my ski and I had figured each other out and we had finally become dance partners. I'm now back to being myself: smooth skiing yet aggressive, leaving it all out there but falling very rarely and rarely taking OTFs or bad falls. Believe me, my back is VERY thankful for that.

 

Such a profound change coming from such a small adjustment! I never would've believed it before. I do now. :)

 

 

 

[Deke]

Wow. All I can say is, why did you keep skiing those settings when it didn't feel right to begin with?

[sixball]

I am only skiing open water now. But I was amazed at fin settings even in open water. I have never kept a setting that did not seam ball park from the get go. And some skies seam to be very noticeable others seam to be less. So the only changes I make now for open water is if the lake temp get into the 80's. My skis seam to get sluggish in warm water. I also take my brake off for open water skiing. I think my old Goode 9500 was the ski I could feel the most effect with small settings. I also have not skied many of the new skis. I am so happy with my old D3Z7. I will never be able to ski beyond the ski and it's so forgiving for a fat old fart. I am still skiing at 36, 35 off got to love a good fast run in the mornings.

[DangerBoy]

@Deke I guess 'cause I wanted to give 'em a fair chance. I didn't really attribute my crashing to the settings at first, I thought it was just me. But when I went to the last setup and everything changed instantly, I knew it wasn't just me and must've had something to do with those settings.

 

I don't know why that second set of settings didn't work for me and had the effect they did but I'm guessing those settings weren't right for my style of skiing and/or the speeds and rope length I ski at. Perhaps they're more for someone who skis shortline at 34 or 36 than someone who skis in my domain.

 

If anyone can offer a theory as to why the longer/shallower more forward fin settings had the effect they did I'd be sure interested to hear it. @Skijay?

[ToddL]

Any ski with an adjustable fin block will benefit from proper settings in harmony with the skier's strength, weaknesses, physique, style, and goals as applied to that ski.

 

The fin doesn't know if the water is "open" or on a course. Just sayin'

[gsm_peter]

My 2 cents....

I am a crappy skier.

Skied my old Senate with factory settings.

Direct after my new Senate but I had to put in the new fin in a hurry without tools.

Same boie count during 6 passes.

When we later adjust the fin it was 1/3" wrong in both lenght and depth.....

[Horton]

It is often illogical how such a small change can make such a big difference.

[MDB1056]

I believe. After getting my new GTR, had been skiing it just with eyeball binding adjustments and not checked anything. Put it in the bench and went to the Connelly Option 1 settings for 67and WOW! Amazing difference

[powbmps]

@DangerBoy - Just to be sure I'm reading this correctly, .005 longer and 1 degree more wing angle made that much of a difference stock vs. Horton? Or are you referring to the larger variation between shallower/longer and Horton's #s?

 

[DangerBoy]

@powbmps I was mainly referring to the differences between the second and third settings I used but the difference between the settings @Horton published and the stock settings were also very noticeable too, even for someone at my level. That third set of settings I went to made that ski great for me and I could tell very quickly (like within just a few turns) it was the bomb. Such a huge difference from either setting, even though the changes in any one adjustment were small. For me, that was quite surprising and interesting having been one that never fooled around with fin settings before and was pretty skeptical over how much difference a small adjustment here or there could make. My mind has been opened now.

 

I should point out that I was a bit confused about where the measuring point was on the front binding placement so I had the front binding in the furthest hole forward for the first two settings and moved it back one hole on the final setting. I don't have one of those plates that lets you micro adjust the front binding distance so all I can do is move it forward or back a hole at a time. It's possible that moving the binding back that one hole on the last adjustment had a bigger effect than the other fin adjustments did.

 

How are you getting on with your V-Type? Is it working well for you?

[BraceMaker]

Open water ski tuning 101. Set boots to factory. Set fin and wing to factory. Ski a set and then move boots forwards 1/8" ski then back 1/4" then fwd 3/8ths and so on. Eventually you should see a very definate trend towards what feels good. Ski that and try a bit fwd and back for a few passes. Once that is set adjust your wing. Then try some dft changes

 

I say this because it will sort out your feelings. If fwd 1/4 feels good back 1/2 should be awful. If it's still good you learned

[powbmps]

@DangerBoy - Some days I suck less than others :p. Really like the ski though. I just checked my measurements, and cannot remember why I set my fin the way it is now.

 

29.5

6.917

2.515

.70 (this is a tough one to measure)

 

It either moved, or I was a few beers in when I last adjusted it. I think I will give your numbers a try (minus 1 degree).

[powbmps]

@DangerBoy - Yessir. The ski feels real good at those numbers.

[DangerBoy]

@powbmps I know! Crazy huh?

[2Valve]

I talked to a guy at a tournament about a new demo boat he was trying.

 

Seems as though it was constantly wanting to turn to the left. Everything was checked, re-checked, and it was finally put on the trailer for some inspecting.

 

Seems as though the plastic wrap wasn't completely removed and a small 4"x4" piece was still adhered to the hull, causing just enough drag to upset the water flowing across it. That plastic is maybe, what, about .010" in thickness.

 

That's about all the proof you need to know that a subtle change can produce amazing results.

[The_MS]

I love it when my advise pays off

[DangerBoy]

@MS That was a good call and I'm glad I listened to you. It took a little while before we finally figured each other out but I really like the ski. Pretty easy transition from the Monza but it feels like it's a more capable ski. Both skis are capable of doing things well beyond my ability though so it's not like I could ever push either of them to anywhere near their limits but the V-type suits me fine and it seems not to have one particular quirk the Monza had (and that I don't miss ). I think the V-Type and I will be dance partners for many years to come.

 

Thanks again for offering your advice!

[The_MS]

Nice. We have a few skiers on them here and they all turn nice.

[georgea0731]

I'm too big of a chicken to mess with the fin. I even bought a caliper tool a few years ago and it's still in the box (ha).

I just tried and moved my rear boot off center and pivoted all the way to the right. I have about 4 sets on it and not sure if it's doing anything.

Where do most folks put their rear binding full right, center or full left? BTW I'm LFF on a 2014 HO S2 at 15 off 34 mph.

[DangerBoy]

I'm LFF and angle my rear binding as much as I can to the right. (If the tip of the ski is north, I make the rear binding go from SW to NE as much as I can. Don't know how much that helps but it feels more natural and comfortable and that's good enough for me.

[owennibley]

Going along with the first post... I never messed with fins at all. I ride a CX Superlite and left everything stock, or so I thought. These past 2 weeks I feel like I hit a major wall. Wasn't being consistent, ski felt like it lost grip on my offside, just really iffy at best. I had some pretty bad crashes and I was at a loss to why. I decided to measure the fin and check to make sure it was at the stock settings. Either I don't know how to measure them or they were way off.

Original:

29.75

6.875

2.516

.761

7°

Changed to:

29.5

6.860

2.510

.775

7°

 

I skied this morning and oh boy was it weird. I was all over the place. After a couple passes I got comfortable and my offside is money now. Super stable and grips the water great. My onside still needs some work but I was able to get 2 passes in a row at 34@22' which was good.

 

I know I broke the cardinal rule of only changing one thing at a time but... :D

 

So I guess my point is, if you've hit a wall or plateau, check your settings and make sure they are what you think they are. It might help.

 

[VONMAN]

@DangerBoy Welcome to the wonderful world of fin tweakers. Ain't it fun!

[ski6jones]

As @skidawg once correctly noted "CHECK YO $#!T"