Glut of very expensive used boats

[bananaron]

I have never had a difficult time finding boats to buy.All of the boats that I have purchased were great boats at great prices.You really have to shop around and have to be willing to travel more then a few miles from your front door.I live in MN and will not buy a boat here due to the high cost and have traveled as far as Houston to pick up a boat.Plenty of boats to buy....

[cougfan]

My son just purchased his first boat last week. Had to drive 4 hrs. Boat is a 2005 Centurion T-5 Comp. Previous owner was ocd and boat is in fantastic shape with 350 hrs. Has perfect pass a tower a bimini and is an open bow. Plenty of room for his family of 4. All maintenance was done by a local dealer. Price was great. Not a Mastercraft Nautique or Malibu but for his needs, mostly open water skiing the boat is and will do everything he needs. Searched for about 2 months. Maybe when his 2 young daughters get older ( they are 4 and 2) and get serious about skiing he can look for one if the big 3 boats but for now all is good and they are enjoying their first boat.

[UWSkier]

Agreed @bananaron Prices in the upper Midwest tend to run high. I saved a few thousand on my boat buying 1/4 of the country away.

[Cnewbert]

The good thing about a glut is that eventually it should result in a buyers’ market, with good deals to be had once the sellers realize there are more boats for sale than buyers to buy them at the prevailing asking prices.

[herseyj]

Slalom boats should be about 40K tops. Take out the radio, trim down the interior, no backseat. Give me a good wake, 300 hp is plenty even on a small lake, closed bow. Boats job is to pull a skier. I don't need a 2nd hpuse.

[pjnyk]

@herseyj only issue with that is that plenty of people want a slalom boat that’s not simply for dock skiing. Obviously it depends on your situation and where you’re skiing but sometimes you want to go for a cruise with a few friends and a closed bow strictly slalom tug won’t exactly allow that

[RAWSki]

@herseyj that has been tried multiple times by several different makers. It doesn't work.

Buyers looking for new boats want it all. And, very often, they want a specific logo on the side and re-sale value so they will pay more. Stripped CB boats don't re-sale well. The CB TXi with analog gauges is as close as you can get these days..... But good luck selling it.

[mmskiboat]

@Cnewbert I do not see that many ski boats for sale compared to wake/surf boats , have been looking for the past month or so and the only thing that might drive some prices down is that not many seem to be moving to quickly so perhaps they are priced to high. But a lot of these sellers might not have to sell so can keep waiting. Having said that I'm based on Canada and there is a lot more ski boats in the US but still way less that the wake/surf.

[skierjp]

Funny thing about the wake surf crowd, no one or very few complaining about price and they are spending between 100 and 200 k.?

[sodbuster88]

I still have a copy of the bill of sale on my ‘89 PS 190 bought new in spring of ‘89. $18,453. Good clean used ‘89’s today are bringing 40-50% of that original purchase price I believe. Someone smarter than me can confirm this, but I believe the 50% depreciation/value rule works well for the deal chasers....at that point, your ski boat is close to bottoming.

[mmskiboat]

@skierjp Could that be that when this type of boat started to be for sale they started much higher in price so the differential does not seem as drastic. I'm new to all of this so wild guess.

 

@sodbuster88 I had not heard this before that a 50% depreciation could be the bottom for a boat. Information like this is helpful.

 

I still kinda agree with @herseyj that they should be able to build a ski boat at a reasonable price but perhaps they would have a hard time justifying the higher price for the other boats in the line. I do think there is a large market of people for a 60k new boat that would allow lots of people to sell and upgrade without having to sell and then come up with the sale price again to buy a new boat. But that would also bottom out the older boats...

[Cnewbert]

@mmskiboat mind you, I never said there was s glut. I was only commenting in a general sense about the benefits to buyers of a glut of any product. It was the OP who suggested there might be a glut of expensive ski boats. I have no idea if this is true or not. I monitor SIA and Only Inboards and I see quite a few late models of the big 3 for $50-$75K. But I don’t know if the numbers I see constitute a glut. I have seen a quite a few price reductions of late suggesting a number of boats aren’t moving. Though price reductions at this time of year are probably to be expected.

[Jody_Seal]

Why?

Why are there so many newer used boat on the market?

Why must this sport continue to be held hostage by tow boat rules?

Why do we as skiers continue to drink the towboat coolaid?

 

Maybe the answer to the ski boat glut is there is a lot of newer boats out their that are not or do not perform as good as their older predecessor models.

I got to be honest , I drive a lot of older models of all three of the towboat manufacturers and they seem to drive and ski better then what is now considered advanced products. About the only thing I can say about the newer products that seems to be advanced over their predecessors is the advanced price of these new boats.

Coolaid has gotten real expensive!

[BraceMaker]

@sodbuster88 not to burst the bubble but not every 89 prostar sells for 7-10K - some certainly do mostly based on having excellent interiors. For old boats it is the interior that represents the single largest expense if you want it done right.

 

I feel like there is certainly sort of a bottom dollar for ski boats of around 7-12k for good condition low owers main brand boats with great interiors. But I've also seen running 89's sell for 3 grand.

[6balls]

For the truly bargain conscious a well-maintained 196 is hard to beat. Pick TSC1,2,3 depending on budget. Can't go wrong, top-shelf quality.

 

 

[skierjp]

If it wasn't for the rule on using the new boats where would be the drive for manufacturers to design or even participate in the Promo Program or do anything with competitive waterskiing. If it wasn't for the boat companies as sponsors and spending tons of money getting their product tested we would be in trouble. Personally I'm not spending $100 to ski behind a non current boat.

[Jody_Seal]

@skierjp

So we as an organization are obliged to make rules for the marketing and sales benefit of manufacturers?

Not sure how that encourages participation in the promo programs!

Today's promo availability in tournaments have dwindled tremendously. This year in many REL&C tournaments I have participated in we have utilized private boats and a number of those had to get rule exceptions to run older boats.

 

I am thinking more the reason there are so many "high" dollar boats on the market is skiers realizing that what they currently have is better then what is newly available.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dockoelboto]

As I was recently in the market for a used boat, the late model prices weren't the problem. My experience was the 10-15yr old boats or older is where the glut exists. People were/are advertising and demanding top dollar above what would generally be perceived as market value. Just recently someone listed an 02 or 03 sunsetter on SIA for 32k. Personally, this is insane. That is not a realistic price, IMHO. I purchased a 13 TXi for 35k. There have bee a lot of 97-05 196s in my area, starting price 20k and only go up from there. It was hard for me to want to pay 20k+ for a 20+yr old boat.

 

Bananron is a wizard at finding good deals and he is willing and able to travel for the right deal. My wife wasn't interested in me flying cross country to see and drive a boat, then trailer it back or ship it. I was somewhat limited geographically.

 

But... If people are actually selling them, boats are only worth what someone is willing to pay. In the PNW, people seem to be willing to pay a lot.

[Spencer_Shultz]

Strictly my opinion, but this sport isn’t capable of supporting 100k boats year in and year out, if the only thing a “good” ski boat needs is ZO.

Yes, we have promo owners. But those people and the dealers taking over those boats have to sell them. And as the prices climb, that’s going to be more and more difficult. Especially outside of Florida where boat use is limited to a shorter period of time.

If I’m a prospective buyer the only thing that’s going to get me into a new boat is bling. And if that’s your thing, fine. The used market needs you. But to what I feel like is the majority of skiers, the only thing that matters is the pull and the wakes. And if that’s the case, convincing someone that they need the latest model year vs. a “insert 2008 or newer model here” is going to be tough imho.

The same is true for wakeboarding/surf boats, just on an even higher scale. Everything has gone to creature comforts while performance has basically hit a plateau. You can only strap so much crap to the back of a boat.

 

 

[BrennanKMN]

If you cannot travel your hands will always be tied. This is a small niche market. Few places will have an abundance of boats to pick from, causing pricing to rise. I almost drove from MN to CA to buy my last boat, ended up in TX instead.

 

 

There are a decent number of affordable slalom tugs out there. There is a lot less affordable slalom tugs that can also be a family boat. Supply and demand at its finest.

[DW]

Some posts on the interest for a 'no frills / slalom tractor' tourney boat, as @RAWSki has posted numerous times, that niche does not exist for a new boat as that experiment has been run several times and each time the market demand is not there. As much as it would seem a market could exist, the sales data says otherwise. Just my opinion, that market price point is filled by the availability of used / promo boats.

[markn]

Have to agree with Jody who is one knowledgeable guy when it comes to boats/driving. Older boats with ZO perform as well or better than the new stuff. As an example, the 1st and second place finishers in Men 6 at the Florida States trained behind 2004 and a 2006 ZO converted 196's respectively. A tournament skier does not need to ski behind the latest model to be competitive. From 32 off to 39 and 41 with ZO Rev S, other than some minor spray and slightly less tracking, nothing wrong with a 15 year old MC, Bu or CC. Yeah,my ZO display is not as "cosmic" as the new boats, but I love the pull and lack of wakes of my old 196.

[CBR51]

Too bad it costs so much to convert a old boat to ZO

[Bill22]

I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes. But it cracks me up when you see a 2013 TXI on SIA for $52K... Really?! If I had an extra 52K don’t you think I would get a 200 mid-30K or a Prostar? Nothing against a Boo.

[Brewski]

Still running my 1993 Sanger Barefoot. Not a true slalom boat but best of both the worlds~~~~~~>

[swc5150]

That boat may have earned a spot on the "what are you smoking" thread.

[Bill22]

@swc5150 I don't care how clean a '13 TXi is, max price would have to be $33k-ish.

[BrennanKMN]

I saw that today and wanted to share it for fun, glad some others found humor in it as well.

[APB]

Dude is out of touch

[IGski]

@Bill22 I saw that too! Has to be a typo!!

Bought my super clean low hour 2013 TXI 2 seasons ago for 15K less....

And at the time I thought I was crazy.....lol...

Maybe his wife said to sell the boat but he's not ready too.....

[Stejcraftben]

It’s been said before but this what we deal with in Australia. You can pay 30k plus for early model Lx response. Even the imported stuff like a mid 90s prostar is 30k. A 70s or 80s Australian built clinker is 10k?

[rockdog]

I am a 196 man myself and own an 08. There is an 08 in NJ with 622 hrs on it for $31500. Looks pretty good but for ordinary trailer and I would replace couple of cracked gauges. I’d like to know if there’s anybody on this site would pay that much given quality of that vintage is not so easy to find?

[Bill22]

@Stejcraftben you pay the shipping and I’ll sell you my ‘01 Lx for $18K (that’s a steal!). Stargazer 9.2, aluminum trailer, new cover, new Bimini, wedge, tower.

[BrennanKMN]

@rockdog prices seem very location dependent.

I wouldn't pay more than $30k for a 196, but I would pay $25k-$27k for a ZO equipped 196 in the proper condition. 200's are not worth the $10k+ premium to me, so I'd take a 196 all day long. ZO equipped 196's are pretty rare on SIA. They go quick, they are often priced right and have a very hard-core following. If you can handle a closed bow there really isn't reason to spend anymore money.

 

With that said, everything is subjective. Everything is worth something different to everyone else.

[ToddL]

People are still buying enough new boats to justify manufacturing. The reality is that no one will invest in a new boat each year if the cost/ability of flipping that boat was insurmountable. AWSA rules might be every so slightly inflating that activity, but I suspect that for certain events/clubs that cost is well understood and deemed feasible for the perceived value of offering the latest model. If it wasn't, there would be a louder outcry about this concern.

 

I get that elite events, nationals, etc. currently pull using latest year only boats. But, what about local, Class C tournaments? What % of them seek and use exceptions to use prior year boats? Is that trending upward at an alarming rate? If so, then AWSA needs to take notice. If not, then clearly local clubs/sites are still seeing value in the cost of new models each year. When that reaches a tipping point and exceptions become the norm, then it is time to take notice.

 

 

[GregHind]

@Stejcraftben aud$30k is cheaper than paying usd$18k plus freight and gst. About the price of the freight cheaper ....

[unksskis]

@ToddL to add to that, what % are or are not pulled by Promo boats? It's a slippery slope, but with boat technology advancing, promo teams downsizing, and less events required to pull Regionals/Nationals, the average skier will not be exposed to the new boats/technology, and local tournaments will increasingly be pulled by private boats.

[ToddL]

Further, let's just say that AWSA/IWWF changes the rules such that any formerly-approved towboat with ZO (or even Z-Box) is allowed to pull _any and all_ classes of events without the need for an exception request. Let's just say that an upcoming nationals will be pulled by prior year boats. Let's just say that the demand for new boats plummets due to that change. And, let's say that manufacturers stop making 3EV boats... Now what?

 

Well, the used market would fill that void accordingly and used pricing/supply/demand there will adjust. Eventually (5-10 yrs), the used-boat supply will attrition and the demand for new boats would increase to the point of becoming compelling. The smart manufacturer would have retained their last 3EV hull molds and will likely kick off a limited run build of new boats and possibly be the only one in the game at that moment. That might spike another manufacturer to do the same. For a limited time, new boats will be sold and the market would adjust again. Maybe the cycle would repeat itself. If there is demand for a product, some manufacturer will find a way to make money off that demand.

 

Fear of the sport dying solely due to lack of manufacturers building brand new, 3EV-capable boats is unfounded in my opinion. I think we have the cause and effect backwards.

[A_B]

I have a 2007 SN with a little over 1200 hours on it and have driven a brand new SN and MC, and I don't see the value justification, even if I was competing.

 

My boat tracks better and the wake on the newer boats seems wider and more noticeable. I don't need to put counterweights in the boat so it drives and tracks. Sure the hole shot of the new boat is awesome, but I don't want all that power applied to me nor do I do that to anyone I pull up.

 

Electronics are nice, but more than double what my boat is worth? Nah.

[escmanaze]

Ah so we are back on this then huh?

 

The horse ain't dead yet!!! Keep beating it!!!

 

But sir, there's literally nothing but bones left?

[tkul94]

NADA lists a 2013 Txi (with incredibly low hours books at $57,500 - low of $47,000. Older boats with low miles and all the bells and whistles - Just saying. Not smoking anything...

[swc5150]

NADA on tournament ski boats historically has not reflected reality.

[ToddF]

I pulled all of the three event boats and promo boats off sia and put them on excel

50k+=102

40-50k=7

30-40k=19

20-30k=24

0-20k=68

 

clearly there are a lot of expensive used boats waiting for new owners.

and a lot of cheap boats waiting for new owners.

infer what you will.

 

 

[Jody_Seal]

A lot of perfectly good boats for tournaments.

Say no to the coolaid!

[Wish]

It's not like other nautical industries haven't jumped on the stubid expensive band waggon. As long as this stuff sells..they will keep making it. A new vestill can be financed pretty easy. Not so sure that's the same in the used maker. Or do they finance used toys like this? In this case, this 1 yr old pontoon is being sold for $100,000 less them MSRP seen in pic.

 

[dvskier]

@Wish A guy on our lake has a new tri toon with 2 300 hp outboards and it goes over 80 mph. Just what you need after quaffing a case of beer, eh! Seriously things are spinning out of control.

[ToddF]

@dvskier, speed isn't a bad thing. drinking and driving is.

[swc5150]

There HAS to be a ton of margin in those mega pontoons for the manufacturers. They sure tapped into a market!

 

I've been fortunate to own some nice boats, but the older I get, the harder a high-ticket boat is to justify. Next summer I'm pulling our '86 MC Skier out of the show barn and its starting life over as my full-time tug:)

[dvskier]

@ToddF Thats true but when a guy takes his friends out for a typical high speed cruise on a 600 hp pontoon there’s usually a lot of alcohol onboard. My pontoon has a 115 hp outboard and no alcohol allowed. Off the water it’s fine but drinking and boating is very dangerous.

[Keith_Menard]

The misinformation in this thread is killing me...don't any of you have rotted teeth and type 2?

 

It's KOOL-AID...with a K!