Handle safety.

[Jody_Seal]

Time for some direction from the trenches..

In light of a recent catastrophe death of a skier and another a few years back. Not mention the arm injurys year after year should our leadership look into mandating some level of handle safety into the competition arena?

I don't think there is a one of you out there that does not know of an injury due to getting appendages into the bridle area of the handle while skiing.

What if an incident such as what happened mr. Tracy happened during a sanctioned event tournament?

Odds of that you say?? I'll leave that to the discussions that are about to start.

I know as a driver or a judge In the boat i would be devastated if a horrific accident occurred during my stint in the boat. The family grief!

If the accident could have been minimized or averted with a simple short piece of rope or a couple ounces of plastic would that not be worth the effort of a safety rule for the handle?

We make a lot of stupid rules in this sport I dont think a handle protection device rule would hurt but again this is going out for discussion.

 

 

For the record I have driven George a number of times over the years in competition and have skied against him when we were in the same age group.

RIP George

[Wish]

Wondering if that is a slippery slope to regulating all kinds of ski safety aspects. Boots, vests, need for helmets (FL States skier died hitting his head on rocks) .

[ScottScott]

I would say there should be a mandate.

 

I think there is an argument regarding arms/hands etc. Can a hand still get in with a guard, then have a harder time coming out....? I believe it to be better with a guard, but thats speculation. But how many arm incidences have been fatal? Very few if any I would think. I know with Aidan Willers there were concerns for his life, I think primarily from blood loss.

 

But, from what I can tell, if a head goes in there is pretty much just one outcome. And most bars, or guards out there will prevent that 100%, AND its not like it costs a lot of money to add. For that reason I say that it should definitely be a mandate.

 

I will say that I was pleased to see so many of the young skiers last year at Lapoints spring tournament using some type of guard, many variations of home made. For some reason there were quite a few in the group at that tournament.

[Wish]

Also, my head does not fit through my handle. Would I still be mandated to have a guarde fat head and all?

[skierjp]

Not sure if your head would actually have to go through the handle for it to be fatal.

[Spencer_Shultz]

@Jody_Seal I genuinely share in your grief. My own Father broke his arm in a ski handle. I’ve now lost a friend because of a ski handle.

I have a net in my handle. Is it enough to stop me from going through it. I don’t know. I pray that at the very minimum it stops my head. ?

As much as I want our leadership to mandate a handle safety mechanism in the tournament realm, they never will.

[The_MS]

Another great benefit of my US Gear handle, my head will not fit. I get more worried about rope wrap.

[bbirlew]

I used to wakeboard with this handle and always wondered why they don’t make ski handles like this.

https://images.evo.com/imgp/700/15674/176928/accurate-proof-carbon-wakeboard-handle-2008-.jpg

 

The v is much too small to fit a head through.

[McGruder]

I bought into what Thomas Wayne (?) developed years ago because of what happened to him and others. I see it as a simple solution to a low risk but high consequence event. My thanks to him for introducing it to the water ski world. I don't know if he is still around, and I remember he was somewhat controversial, but his solution to address the problem is a big deal in my book.

[aupatking]

I once asked why handles weren’t sold with handle guards and was told “liability issues”. I’m not sure what liability is added by them. Anyone have any insight to that? I can’t really think of how they would make the handle less safe. I have fidded a few strands of paracord through my In-Tow Spectra Handle, hopefully small enough spans that my hand can’t go through, but definitely small enough that my head can’t. Even duct tape would seem to be enough for the millisecond that it takes for a head to go through

[RichardDoane]

@Jody_Seal at the least, the "tournament supplied handle" should have some type of guard

[Stevie Boy]

I know anything is possible, at any line length, but would I be correct in saying that the risk increases as the line gets shorter, or would that statement be incorrect.

[BraceMaker]

@Stevie Boy

I think something that keeps new skiers safer than slalom skiers is simply that they're not generating the speed/energy to carry themselves up on the line so the physics just aren't friendly to getting into the handle other than it very strange scenarios.

 

There would be more engineering leeway for handle guard solutions if someone created a mechanical hook up that prevented having to put the handle through the loop.

[mmskiboat]

Dumb question probably as I new to all of this. When these accidents happen I assume the hands are off the handle? If so I wonder of you could have a spring or some mechanism to pull the loop together to form one line so to speak. When there is pulling force it would expand but no force collapse to a T handle of sorts. When you start you would pull it apart.

[Than_Bogan]

@mmskiboat Nice outside the box thinking, but I have to send you back to the drawing board. At times during a slalom pass, the tension at the handle is zero, so the proposed mechanism would collapse, making it impossible to get your hand back on the handle after the turn.

[Than_Bogan]

@aupatking InTow will make handles with a crossbar. It is perfect. Never notice it, but head cannot even begin to fit through.

 

STRONGLY recommended!!

[DW]

To follow up on the tension comment, I use some stretch cord across the center that does pull the V together some. Doesn't close it, just shrinks it a bit. Have not noticed any re-grab issues yet, time will tell with this experiment.

Distance away from the handle seems more critical from my experimentation, I strung one a it too close although it only affects me on a turn around not when actually skiing in earnest.

[ski6jones]

The governing body could require a non specific handle guard for participants leaving the specific implimentation up to the user. Perhaps they could provide guidance of a handle maximum opening size or similar. Seems this would reduce their liability exposure from unintended consequences.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

This is obviously a sad and tragic accident. Particularly when something tragic happens, we need to be very careful about kneejerk reactions and pushing new rules and mandates.

 

The liability issue comes into play if a manufacturer provides, or USAWS mandates a “safety device” to prevent injuries. Now what happens when a skier has their arm go through the handle – less likely but still possible – and the arm gets stuck and can’t get out, leading to a significantly worse injury. Picture being drug down the lake by an already broken humorous before the driver can stop the boat. Now since the skier was using a safety device required by the organization and got injured in some part by that device, the organization will be liable. Huge problem.

 

Next, any mandated safety device could only be required at sanctioned tournaments. There is no way to require a device in practice. What is the ratio of practice passes vs tournament passes? For tournament skiers, its probably 100:1. Then consider the course skiers who rarely or never ski tournaments. Any mandated safety device would only affect a small fraction of a percent of skiing. Essentially worthless.

 

For the odds of this type of injury in a sanctioned tournament, how about the odds of a serious injury from a jump crash, i.e. broken neck or back? There is already a list of those. Any real action to reduce major injuries should start with eliminating jump altogether before worrying about slalom injuries. I’m obviously not suggesting that, just attempting to put it into perspective.

 

I believe some sort of “handle safety device” is a good idea and I always use one. However I am adamantly against any sort of requirement to use one. Its up to the individual to mitigate his/her risk.

 

[BraceMaker]

@aupatking - in re; liability - if you were to consider how low the injury rate is. Think of all the passes you have taken, everyone here has taken, every pass on open water with a V shaped handle since the beginning of the sport. How many total adverse outcomes do you know of? Understanding that by participating in this forum you are much more exposed to these injuries than the general public.

 

So for a larger company to add this I feel they would need to have some sort of proof that they had reduced the risk of injury in order to claim it as such. And that proof might be hard to have in a world where the injury rate is sufficiently low.

 

 

 

 

[pregom]

@Bruce_Butterfield I agree that there are many more passes that happen outside of tournament settings, but when you say you are adamantly against any sort of requirement, how would that be different from say the requirement of wearing a seatbelt when driving a car or a helmet on a motorcycle?

[The_MS]

Don’t need helmets in Mn for motorcycle

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@pregom I am against seatbelt and helmet laws. Call me libertarian, but when Big Brother mandates things, its a slippery slope and its not long until there is a regulation for damn near everything. The laws and regulations we have for every aspect of our daily lives is case in point.

 

Having said that, I always wear a seatbelt and wouldn't consider riding a motorcycle without a helmet.

[dbutcher]

@aupatking Perhaps they are thinking about potential liability if the "guard" did not work as a user thought it should have and allowed an injury to occur that the user thinks should have been prevented. Or made an injury worse. We live in a litigious society. The next question is "should the handle manufacturer warn of the danger". Head through the handle is a danger that is not open and obvious to an inexperienced skier, but it is well known to those of us who have gone out the front a few times. So, should the handle manufacturer warn? Would failure to warn create liability? Perhaps handle manufacturers should warn of danger and offer to supply a guard. It's a bucket of worms. The initial answer depends upon what particular judge/jury you get. Who knows what happens on appeal?

 

If slalom skiers could remember, during a forward fall, to hang on to the handle with one or both hands until the boat pulls it away, there would be fewer through the handle injuries. That is easier said than done.

 

Slalom skiing can be a dangerous activity. So is walking across a busy street. Life is full of risks. We have to accept some risk if we want to enjoy life.

[BraceMaker]

@Bruce_Butterfield - I think the difference is that we can very specifically point to seatbelts and helmets in reducing injury for vehicle occupants and motorcycle riders. We cannot specifically point to any sort of data that says these handle guards specifically mitigate the risk. It is clear anecdotally that they work.

 

We can point at the deaths and injuries and be shocked and think how horrible that is, but we don't have the ability to show the effectiveness of the guards.

[The_MS]

The only reason that seat belt laws are on the books is so that they have another reason to pull you over and see if your drunk.

[aupatking]

To be clear, I was in a retail shop and wanted to buy a new handle and a guard. They did not sell guards at all. I asked, why they didn’t sell them together. It may have been this guy’s opinion, more than the store policy, but he was pretty knowledgeable about everything else.

I also do not support a mandate or requirement. I do use a guard and I suggest others do so as well. I do not see any way to keep an arm from going through a handle. I know a 13 inch handle will allow a head to go through where a 12 inch, in most cases, will not. I ski with a 13 in spite of that, but with some type of guard.

@Bruce_Butterfield i believe you are correct, that an arm through the handle would be less likely to come out with a restrictive guard device, and that may be exactly the “liability” they were talking about.

[aupatking]

Should all 13 inch handles be sold with a warning of head-through-handle possibilities and an UNINSTALLED handle guard and instructions on how to install it, if desired?

[mmskiboat]

@Than_Bogan ok two grip sensors if no pressure from sensor forms T handle. Another crazy idea a break away handle if no pressure on sensors.

 

I know none of these are realistic. A static solution that is working all the time makes the most sense.

 

 

[disland]

We need a senior judge to be appointed by the chief judge ( who of course cant actually judge anything because he is monitoring all the other judges), who is responsible to operate the automated camera system that will be a on gimble to allow full view of all docks to ensure proper handle guards are in place and are not removed before or after a ski set. The handle guard judge will be monitoring the handle guard display that will be at a minimum for 50 inches and of 4K HD quality. The recorded video will be sent to Paris France for all L class events to be stored in a climate controlled vault for a minimum of 10 years for forensic review.

[BlueSki]

@aupatking, I doubt the warning label would make a difference. Nowadays boats have so many warning labels it appears that someone pasted pages from a book all over the boat. I think the only thing anyone might read is the number on the capacity plate.

[mmskiboat]

@aupatking I think that would make sense only because then at least people might know about this risk and then chose to do something to avoid it. I do not think this is a know issue for a lot of people.

[Stevie Boy]

We don,t actually think about it too much, but for most of us, it could be considered as a highly dangerous sport, when you consider the forces , physics and speed involved , plus other aspects where you put trust in others.

Yet when I get in the water, do I consider any of this, the answer is no, I am looking to ski well and cut the line, I doubt if anybody driving to the lake, ever thinks about what if, for me equipment choice, is down to the user.

Tragedy is so hard for the people affected most and I extend my condolences to the Tracy Family, but George Tracy was clearly a avid lover of water skiing and enjoyed his time on the water, we should never forget that, he was part of our community and will be sadly missed.

[dbutcher]

@disland That is funny! Thank you. I'm still chuckling.

[Jody_Seal]

I remember some of the same type of input back in the early 80s when the helmet rule was being discussed In membership meetings.

The odds? We are such a small sport and yes over the years there have been thousands of passes (with falls) incurred with no issues But if .05 cents worth of material could take those odds even lower then why not implement a safety handle rule?

Liability? Understandable why handle manufacturers would not arbitrarily build with these systems in their products. But yet we ski with non coast guard approved vests simply because there are statements on the label saying they are not CG approved.

I have had some brief discussion (over a adult frothy beverage) with a prominent florida attorney about this issue and how if a catastrophic accident such as what happened to mr. Tracy happend in a competition? Can of worms for sure but regardless everybody involved would need to secure legal counsel to protect them selves if a ambulance chaser gets involved, and more then likely one would as a grievous family would want answers and compensation. My question was would a implemented rule lower this risk of needing legal protection ? Answer would a rule minimize the risk of catastrophic death or injury? I think most of us would say a level of implemented handle safety would lower that risk dramatically.

 

Thanks for the responses, I am sure our leadership has gotten wind of this discussion, will see if this issue is addressed.

You all ski well, ski safe and you can go back to the bs discussions about more technology to drive a boat.....straight!

[Nater]

Ski safe everyone!..... Work on rope and handle management and avoid turning into slack lines. We all know that this is easier said than done.

[RichardDoane]

 

Brenda even writes your name on the side, just in case you leave it on the dock

[Hallpass]

Given the unfortunate news of this weekend, I ordered a guard for my daughter's handle. I'd been thinking about it for some time anyway. To me, it's like wearing a snow ski helmet. I never did. But, at some point the question was not why, but rather why not? Turns out, a helmet is the most comfortable "ski hat" I've ever worn. I'm sure the guard on the handle will present no problem either.

[david_ski]

Such a tragic loss for the community and the family.

 

I have posted this before on another thread.

 

I have skied with a handle guard for the last 10+ years. Last year while skiing I had a bad turn at ball 3 and dipped the ski tip in a slow-mo OTF. Knowing I was going down, I threw the rope away from my direction of travel. We were video taping this set. After video review I saw that as I hit the water my hand was instinctively trying to catch my fall, and it was directly on the handle guard. I could not believe the video. It was not the consistent with the clip that I recorded in my head. I knew I tossed the handle away from me. If the guard was not there, my arm would of been clean through the handle V with that fall.

 

Takeaways: Everything happens on the water (good and bad) so quickly. What you think you have done correctly might not agree with the video replay. Practice always holding onto the handle until the boat takes it away from you. A small piece of plastic, mesh, or rope webbing on the handle may avoid an injury.