Wake Surf Boats creating concern on our lake

[AkBob]

One surf boat became five surf boats and damage is beginning to show. We are seeing shore erosion, dock damage and waterfowl issues. I've maintained a waterski course on our public lake for 30 years and my neighbors tolerate it for the most part. The surf boats with multiple people on board and the music they share with the world is drawing ire. I'm not against surfing, but multiple passes close to shore is tearing things up. Jetskis are annoying, but less of an issue. Any suggestions on how to tactfully help surf boat owners modify their behavior? Skiers boats are either planing or at idle and our wakes are minimal by comparison

[oldjeep]

What is legal distance from shore/docks in your state, and are the observing it? Here in MN they passed a surf specific law this year requiring 200 ft from shore/docks/etc

[BraceMaker]

This is a touchy point, having communicated with our lakes association they are all retired folks who love to fish and have quiet so "surf boat" and "ski boat" mean the same thing.

 

I've been trying to get a facebook group going on our local lake for watersports enthusiasts to coordinate for boat crew (how many times do you go down to the dock alone on glassy days and wish someone could drive you) as well as to reach out to educate and advocate with the lakes associations for watersports.

[AkBob]

The " legal distance" is 150ft. The legal distance is a bit academic because there are several large areas of the lake accessed by passing through areas that are not 300ft wide. Users will not slow to no wake speed to access those larger areas. The problem would be reduced if the surf boats used a greater portion of the lake. The homeowners association is trying to develop a flier or signage to educate users on wake etiquette, quiet hours etc. Educational language for all users is what we are we are looking for. I suppose you could be a jerk on a paddleboard and I wouldn't care. Surf boats or people wet testing their large ocean boats create tsunami size waves that create expensive damage are the target concern. We don't have government intervention on our lake......yet. I would like an educational approach first. If 5 wake boats turns into 10 our 400 or so residents will call in government and we may all suffer that intervention.

[Minelickskier]

I know of at least two boats on our lake this summer that have taken on serious water from a surf boat’s wake. One had to be towed in and pretty much sank. If you have an open bow you better be careful if you have their wake coming your way...the first one over the bow is bad but the second one can debilitate your boat! They scare my wife when she is driving. I think they can be a danger.

[vtmecheng]

There are some big surf boats on Lake Anna. Two property owners near our place own the big Nautiques. My father had to completely redo his shoreline with reinforcements because of these boats. Sure, there's a law on distance from shore but with the size of these wakes it really isn't enough (when they do comply). The loud music is part of the annoyance but the wake is the primary concern for both shorelines and other boats. It's also hard for me to not view wake surfing as kind of a jerk thing since they make it so no one else within the area can enjoy the water. A ski boat throws almost no wake, similar to a fishing boat. The wake surfing boat is equivalent to driving around slowly, holding up a middle finger, yelling "I DO WHAT I WANT."

 

In the end, laws and enforcement will likely not change with respect to wake surfing on lakes like Lake Anna. These people result in money to the lake and community because they bring lots of people and many are well off (those boats command big dollars). We have found in trying to push for stronger laws and better enforcement that the fear of not getting those dollars supersedes the concern for damage to shorelines and other boats.

[ski6jones]

One thing to point out is that on public water you are responsible for damage caused by your wake. Not sure how to tactfully use this but it might be a useful bullet point.

[NameUnavailable]

What about on small lakes....do any ski lakes let these boats operate? Do you limit the size or weight?

[oldjeep]

The " legal distance" is 150ft. The legal distance is a bit academic because there are several large areas of the lake accessed by passing through areas that are not 300ft wide.

 

Well, there is your problem. If you are not enforcing it for everyone then you can't enforce it for anyone. Call the sheriff (or whatever your local enforcement is), ask if they will park a patrol boat in one of the areas that people are not observing and start handing out tickets.

[jercrane]

Like all things the problem here is not universal. I have a buddy on our public lake that is a very good wake boarder and surfs occasionally. He has one of these beasts. He is however incredibly respectful wrt his wakes. If he shows up in a cove and someone is skiing he goes to another cove. He does like to play music from his tower while he rides and I have given shit for this but in general he gets it. On the other hand I know of two families on the lake that let their teenage sons take out their Super Air Nautiques with a giant crew and partying. One of these dipshits actually thinks it's funny to swamp ski boats. He's also the same punk that likes to try and hit Loons with his boat. Then this gets back to the lake association and they start talking horsepower limits which effects all of us.

 

The problem isn't necessarily the boats its the owners and people being a mixed bag in general. We have plenty of wide open expanses on the lake where these boats would be fine. If they were just respectful of shoreline proximity and other activities on the lake.

 

Sadly too many of them like @vtmecheng said would rather ride around giving the rest of us the finger.

 

On a related note if anyone in the Northern New England area ever has some money they want to throw into building a private ski site we have an abandoned gravel pit ready to go. Just struggling to find investors. :D

[oldjeep]

know of at least two boats on our lake this summer that have taken on serious water from a surf boat’s wake. One had to be towed in and pretty much sank. If you have an open bow you better be careful if you have their wake coming your way...the first one over the bow is bad but the second one can debilitate your boat! They scare my wife when she is driving. I think they can be a danger.

 

Same thing happens with big cruisers that are not on plane. If you are moored then you have an argument, if you are driving a boat with no freeboard in an area where boats like that operate then you need to know how to deal with it. Even with my VTX - which has more freeboard than a comp boat you have to watch for wakes of the big boys, and wake boats, (and tug boats if you are on the river).

[LoopSki]

I frickin hate these boats but more so the idiots that own them. Not saying they all are but..... luckily i dont have that problem at home but when we go Houseboating. You csn only try so much to avoid them , but they love to show off their useless skills

 

[sixball]

And the boats continue to get larger more ballast and louder sound systems.

[jjackkrash]

On the malibucrew.com they are gleefully talking about 30 foot twin screw cruisers to convert to surf boats. People are going to go bigger and bigger until it starts getting shut down I suspect.

[oldjeep]

Gotta admit that Mastercraft 300 is a hell of a build ;)

[sixball]

Could be they will kill the sport on there very own. You can't keep this up in small lakes. I don't know if anybody that think 100' or 200' from shore makes a ton of difference. The water surge is still present just quieter. Suename don't travel over a ocean and dissipate nether do wakes. They change shape not strength.

[jimski]

It’s a world wide problem

Stupid is as stupid does

We have a 200 and a 210

My wife likes to surf and take the friends out and listen to the tunes.

We never going out in the morning always later in the afternoon I keep my distance from every one and every thing try and stay out in the middle of the lake.

It’s a big public lake.

I say I don’t own the lake

But I sure show a hell of a lot of respect for every one else using it.

 

[UWSkier]

Lots of them are completely oblivious to the fact that their fun ruins your day. I've actually had decent luck in AZ talking to some surfers who have been out early mornings when we're chasing glass on public water. I saw them loading up as I was finishing a set so I had my driver drop me right next to their boat. I mentioned to them we were going to be skiing that 1/2 mile of water for the next 45 mins or so after which, we'd be out of there. If they'd go the other way and turn before reaching our line, we'd do the same, ensuring us both glass. They gladly obliged and were super cool about it.

[jjackkrash]

Last year I was at a local public lake in my ski boat; the lake could maybe fit a slalom course in it, maybe, but it is that small. And then a big monster came out surfing in circles and I took two rollers over the bow doing everything I could to avoid them and almost sank trying to get back to the launch. I am all about freedom, but it is a problem finding a way to co-exist with something like that in a small lake.

 

[pregom]

A friend of mine got his boat basically sunk by a jerk with a wake surfing boat on a public lake...

[Safewake]

Minnesota did not pass the Bill championed by the Boating Industry that would have required a minimum 200’ setback from shore if wake surfing. In fact, the Minnesota House refused to ever hold a Hearing on this Bill. As with folks in other States, Minnesotans know that 200’ does nothing to address the environmental, safety, damage to personal property and AIS concerns created by wake boats and wake surfing. I’d invite people to check out SafeWakes for Minnesota Lakes at SafeWakes.org.

[UWSkier]

This is an extremely slippery slope. As much as I loathe surf waves crashing on the shore for hours a day and the sounds emanating from their tower speakers... once the do-gooders get an inch, they take a mile. Would hate to be the baby thrown out with the bath water. Next they'll be claiming that ski boat noises disturb the slumbering dung beetles who don't wake up until 10 am or something...

[LOTW]

On our lake, the guys on the marine unit get it and if you call them, they will come and shut these guys down. Us skiers are generally an older and more respectful group with a good relationship with the police. Our course is in a small, undeveloped bay 10 minutes from town. Our lake does have a distance restriction from shore but since we're not bothering anyone, they look the other way. Most people like to watch us and would rather toss shit balls at the wakesurfers! They are creating they're own mess, they're not all bad either.

We are lucky! So far.....

[mmskiboat]

I do think that education is the biggest part. On our lake there are a couple of surf boats but they typically just go down the center of the lake and are not an issue. My concerns are more for the water fowl and shoreline as the waves damage nesting areas (well wipe them out) and erosion.

 

I do think that some people just do not understand the damage that is happening, nor the effect this is having to everyone else on the lake in the cases mentioned above. I do agree it is a slippery slope as the difference between newer ski boats and surf boats are huge, to the average joe they are both boats with big motors and if your ski has a tower then even look alike. So any restriction could affect both.

 

I think that long term lake association make need to look at breakwalls to manage the waves. I have looked for residential options more due to the weather at our dock and they do not exist. This could encourage surf boats more which is not ideal but could offer shoeline protection in sensitive areas.

 

 

 

[liquid d]

Get off my lawn! No matter how much you bitch, you need to fortify your docks and do what you can to minimize effects...of the pounding that is going to continue. These boat companies make way too much money from selling the monster wakeboats for this to stop. Bigger bumpers, tie lines, don't park sideways to open areas, protect shorelines (we need to come up with a better way? c'mon engineer types...)

Learn how to drive better on the open water when you see a huge wake (it should NEVER swamp a ski boat). It may require some practice to try different techniques...

[oldjeep]

@Safewake - I thought that it had passed?

The standalone bill was added into broader bill

 

Shows that it passed in May

Senate

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/bill.php?b=Senate&f=SF4499&ssn=0&y=2019

 

Text of bill

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?number=SF4499&version=2&session=ls91&session_year=2020&session_number=0

 

Subd. 3. Distance from shore. On waters of this state, a person may not wake surf at

greater than slow-no wake speed within 200 feet of a:

(1) shoreline;

(2) dock;

(3) swimmer;

(4) raft used for swimming or diving; or

(5) moored, anchored, or nonmotorized watercraft.

 

But is looks like the companion bill in house didn't have that in it. Looked at your website - pretty over the top.

[unksskis]

Blame the manufacturers as much as you blame the users. Any legislation will dramatically impact the manufacturers as well, but they turn a blind eye.

[oldjeep]

Well, the mfg are selling legal items that people want to buy.

[DW]

This very same thread appears on the websites visited by the surf crowd, the slant is everybody else is targeting them. Typically, they highlight the big cruisers as the most egregious violators of wake management and courtesy, and thus feel they are justified in their actions. Not saying right or wrong, just a reality of how people perceive the subject. In other words everybody is above average, thus any annoying activity is done by somebody else, and 'I' am always courteous.

[Wayne]

Oh boy these issues are fun. We had this come up at a local lake that is run by and association. They brought it to the county board and because the county borders the lake I live on was dragged into the party.

 

If you are in a position to do it I would recommend the following. Try to keep this within the lake users and lake front owners. Bring facts and studies, our local Nautique dealer brought in wave/erosion studies and spoke to the fact Nautique trains the dealers to train buyers on the safe operation and impacts of their wakes when doing boarding sports. This point resonated with the county board and I believe heavily influenced their impartial decision to stay out of the issue. Education is key, if you can have some type of public hearing with some protocols in place for moderating speakers (a virtual online meeting with a moderator might work with the current situation we are in) it could get some understanding in the disrespectful operators and some understanding from the people that want excessive restrictions.

 

Most skiers fall in between the extremes and approaching a boat tearing up the water seems to give you a 50/50 shot at understanding versus conflict. I noticed this season has been better with the wake boats since our county meeting even though it seems they are out more now since so many people are working from home. They are keeping their distance from shore, giving other boats more space and being aware of ideal conditions for the slalom skiers and fishermen in the morning.

[Justin]

Devils advocate thinking, I am not convinced there would be all these new innovations or even a ski boat / direct drive boat market without the sale of all these big surf boats. It's a trickle down effect. I also question the erosion arguments, I've seen the damage 1 thunderstorm can have on shorelines, and it's much worse than a few boats travelling by at 11 mph on the lake I live on.

But I 100% agree that there are guilty owners who have zero respect for neighbours and aren't willing to give any concessions because of their ''rights''.

[swc5150]

@Justin Ski boats have always been a little niche, and of the big 3 got out, someone else would step in. Wake barges just made the big 3 bigger...like SUV's did with all the sports car companies.

 

Our shoreline and dock have been hammered by wake boats on our little lake. 24' of barge is just stupid on 100 acres of water, at least that's my gen X opinion.

[vtmecheng]

Where we are in the lake isn't wide or super long. It works great for skiing if you stay in the center but wake surfing waves hit the shoreline hard. There are plenty of other areas on the lake that are wider but that would mean the surfers couldn't pull out of their dock and start surfing. Even if we are skiing, they just roll on into the cove.

 

We tried to get someone with authority to come and enforce the laws that are on the books. Each agency says it's not them, they don't have the manpower. Laws not enforced are equal to no laws.

 

The biggest difference between wake surfing and big cruisers is that the cruiser just rolls on past, while the surfer goes back-and-forth. I'll stop skiing for a few minutes to let a wake go by, we are all sharing. Taking up a cove for 2 hours with monster wakes isn't sharing.

[LoopSki]

I want to try this surfing

[2Valve]

@jercrane Any kid that enjoys running down defenseless loons needs a serious one on one with the Police.

[Justin]

@swc5150 I totally agree there is no place for a surf boat on a 100 acre private lake. But I disagree about someone else stepping in for the big 3 DD boats. How many small independent companies have tried and failed?

They need the $$$ backing to support such a small niche low volume market. Unless they just kept turning out old tech, and never had model changes and kept them bare bones and cheap to make.

[swc5150]

They only failed because of barrier to entry into the market, which is in large part used big 3 boats. If that all dried up, someone would service this niche market. Still plenty of new Prostars and Nautiques being sold per year to make it worth it...which also means they'll keep producing them:)

[skibrain]

We ski 150 acre public water and have found that few Surfers or wakeboarders are early risers. 95% of the time we are off the water by 7 a.m. and while not addressing erosion it mostly solves for flat water for skiing.

 

But any power boating requires being a good neighbor. We’ve added FA exhaust to the boat, when skiing the course we modify our turn at one end to throw less sound at a nearby residence. When there are fishermen on the lake we try to give them space. And pretty frequently we motor over and actually talk to a fisherman or wakeboarder - express understanding of their right and desire to be on the water, explain the pattern we’re running, that we are skiing for an hour and then will be gone. Then we stay out of their way or drop early if someone moves. Yeah sometimes a pain, but frequently people honestly don’t get that we’re after flat water. And most of the time it works.

 

Since at this point you are talking about 5 wakeboats, some face to face conversations seem possible. Get to know them. Try to enlist the wakeboat owners in an effort to be good lake users so there isn’t a clamp down on everyone. Allies instead of enemies is honestly not my first emotion when they show up, but it’s a start before it escalates to lake rules that are at odds with skiing.

 

Good luck.

[Sethro]

I used to think the big wakeboard/surf wakes wasn't that big of a deal, thinking folks were blowing things out of proportion a bit. Then I went to Norris Lake last summer and realized what everyone is talking about. Simply unreal the amount of big wake boats and accompanying wakes, and I was starting to understand. But then one day late last summer on the little Rock River here in NW Illinois it happened. Someone visiting from WI (according to the registration numbers) had a Malibu M235 on our little, narrow 12 mile section of the river. I was trick skiing and my driver literally had to take defensive action against that wake. Later in the day it cruised past the house several times....biggest wake of any boat that's ever gone past my house. Crashing over my dock and seawall (neighbors too) leaving me to think I'd have to do some reinforcing if that was a normal occurrence on any given day.

[slow]

The problem are the boats, even on a big lake. Surf waves carry a half mile. We have a 200 foot from the end of the dock restriction and it really does nothing for shoreline protection. Hayden Lake Idaho has been decimated the last few years rip rap rock going up everywhere to prevent erosion.

[vtmecheng]

One neighbor who owns a top end Nautique surf boat happened to be near our dock on a jet ski, as a support boat for them teaching the granddaughter to wakeboard. This was cool and the 6 year old was doing great. We talked a bit and she brought up wake surfing. She said they used to ski but stopped because it was hard and they are 63 (I'm sure many here will laugh at that). They like wake surfing because it's easy and friends can pile into the boat. I kindly mentioned that it looks fun but hurts the shore and water for anyone else in the inlet here. Her only response was that they only do it mid-week, which is crap because I've seen them out all 7 days. Then she drove off. They know it sucks for everyone else but don't care.

 

Also, my dad asked the local law enforcement of they are in charge of the 200ft rule (which is still really close) and everyone points to someone else. Not really a law if there's no enforcement.

[scorban2]

They've multiplied on our lake in the past few years, and are mostly on the south end where the nicer houses are. The lake has a fairly low clearance bridge to get between the two sides, and no boat with a tower can get through (some tri-toons are too tall without many people on).

 

Last year when the county announced the bridge would be replaced due to age, a big group started pushing for them to raise the bridge. We had the opposite thought, hoping they'd stay the same to keep the big boats where they were.

 

Luckily (or not) it's IL and the government is broke, so no raised bridges!

[luckyone]

I agree with the point t that they cause a lot of damage but if your in the boat your having the time of your life , so fun

[TomH]

There's a time and a place for it, but small lakes are where it gets and should be contentious. I'm on a long/narrow 200 acre lake, and I'd say it's the bare minimum size where they can safely operate without being complete jack-asses, so long as they stay down the middle. Once they lean towards either shore, it's game over for the shoreline here. I know some will argue that storms can do more shoreline damage, but I'd say that's really only true on larger lakes. I'm on the north end of ours and basically get the worst a storm can dish on our lake. If a surfer runs parallel to my end, it's far and above bigger than anything I've seen winds/storms kick up, and also has much more energy to it. Thankfully, our launch is pretty shallow and deters most of the bigger boats, so we really only see 4 surf boats (and 3 live on the lake), and so far they're all pretty courteous and well versed in skier's etiquette (helps that most of them are pretty serious wakeboarders - so they get it).

[Jody_Seal]

Get used to the coal barges. Probably the most opulent form of wasting natural resources in today's "toad" watersports. They are coming in diesel now also.

 

 

[Kreatonus]

I have been wakesurfing for a long time, and I understand that we can cause trouble for other people, so I prefer to board only in specially equipped places. When I started to learn, it was hard for me to choose a good board for wakesurfing because I didn't know the difference between the boards. But now, I am a real professional in this field since I've been surfing for over 4 years. I don't disturb anybody while surfing because I think my hobby should not make others uncomfortable.

[bojans]

@Horton above link is spam

[Minelickskier]

We have new laws that just went into effect in July in Tennessee that specifically say wake surfing and wake boarding on public lakes must stay a minimum of 200 feet from shore and not allowed in a cove of 400 ft. width or less. Damage was being caused to docks and erosion of banks. Most people on our public lake think it is a good thing. Skiers and fishermen are happy

[ScarletArrow]

Slightly off topic as this thread is mostly about the negate effects of wakes from surf boats…

 

I learned how to surf last week on vacation behind a g23. We can hate on it all we want, but it is fun.

 

After having a 200 and g23 all week on vacation and using both extensively, my ski buddy and I were discussing the different experiences in each. Each had positives and negatives.

 

Interestingly, we had just as many kids willing to get up at 7a to go out on the 200 as the 1p surf run.

 

My conclusion is that we are marketing skiing all wrong.

[chrislandy]

It will be interesting to see how many progress from surfing to skiing once they've done it for a while. We are looking into wakefoil as you can do it behind any boat with any wake (or even no boat and just pumping) then when we're all skied out we can still muck around on the water/behind the boat without donuting or kneeboarding