Public lake course dropping

[Keukaskier]

So is there anyone out there that has gone through the process of dropping a course on a public lake( not a portable course) ?

 

My friends tell me to just do it, drop it. I grew up with stories of having courses and jumps on The lake. Why not now? If access to our sport is the problem, isn’t putting a public course in worth the BS it might entail? There are far more dangerous things going on on The lake than is skiing a course.

[Jmoski]

I didn’t install the course on our public lake but now help maintain it.

 

You need to see if your state has regulations about it. In Maine you don’t need a permit, New Hampshire you do and friends of mine could only get a permit for a temporary course that has to be removed when not in the day/time slots issued, they sink it to comply…

[PatM]

I can still remember when I went about putting the course in my lake. It was a hassle for sure. Mainly a couple neighbors that were against it. Well 30 years later it is still there. Totally worth the hassle.

[MISkier]

If you can install a course without a permit or you have a permit to do so, then do it. Public lakes that allow courses should always have one, in my opinion. I think your biggest effort will be in setting anchors for the buoys. I doubt much will happen to them afterward and your maintenance will be to replace buoys and buoy lines and maybe even an occasional sub buoy. Heck, we do all of that on a private, purpose-built ski lake now. Having a good relationship with the other residents on the lake will be key to how much maintenance you have to do in the future. The opportunity to ski the course regularly, conveniently, and affordably will be well worth it.

[BraceMaker]

I am taking diving courses in hopes I may eventually get a permit then I am going to put my portable in fine tune where it sits and then spend a summer setting anchors under it.

 

Figured a winter in the pool isnt a bad hobby.

[markn]

I went through the permitting process for a course in both Indiana and Florida. The process for Florida was actually more difficult and time consuming. Despite the time and effort involved, with respect to a course, think is is better to "ask for permission" and obtain a permit that complies with your local laws than to "apologize" after just putting one in. Just FYI, if it is an Army Corps lake, they own the lake bed and are not fond of 22 anchors on their property (at least in Indiana) hence we had to use an accu-float with only 2 anchors. Good luck.

[RAWSki]

Definitely research and go for it We feel so lucky to have a course on our public lake Had to go thru re-permitting a couple years ago and while something of a hassle it wasnt a problem and we didnt find any objections

[Mastercrafter]

I bought an insta-slalom for our public lake, and after last year, basically swore that I’m done with with. The course itself works great and is easy to use, but other boats kept destroying it. Among countless missing buoys and torn up buoy lines, twice someone got wrapped up enough in the course to drag the center of it about 50’ sideways. We have drunk toonies all the time trying to swerve through the boat guides.

 

The hassle of sinking it for the weekend and setting it up for the weekdays gets old pretty quick. An Accufloat or similar would be easier, but we don’t have the depth required.

 

I know there are semi-public / public lakes around here with courses that seem to have better luck, but apparently our lake isn’t fit for a course. Kind of a case-by-case basis.

 

[VONMAN]

@Mastercrafter Do you live on Walled Lake?

 

[Mastercrafter]

@VONMAN yup, Mike W here. The course is set basically on top of your old course.

[VONMAN]

@Mastercrafter That's what I thought. To shallow and weedy for a sinkable course. We used to remove all the balls and markers (4) at 12 noon on Saturday and it couldn't go back up till 9am Monday. But the Sheriff patrol would let us put it up 6am on Sunday and ski till noon and then we would remove all the balls and markers.

Woke up one morning during the week to 22 balls cut from the lines and floating all over the lake. Other morning seeing one of the SKI COURSE markers cut in two!? Must have been a pontoon boat in the middle of the night. Never understood the DNR wanting those in the lake.

The day my brother Rick and I put the course in a boat cut the mainline, darn thing is like a magnet for crazy stuff. But the fun we Had! I have some old video on U-Tube. Just type in my name to view: Ernie Schlager

 

[lpskier]

In NY you will need one or two permits, depending on who owns the lake bottom where you will place your anchors. It may be easier if the state owns the lake bottom as you will then have only one bottom owner to deal with. Call your Regional DEC HQ and ask to speak with someone in Lands and Forest and they should be able to tell you if the state owns the lake bottom of your lake.

 

If the State owns the lake bottom, you will need a “temporary use of State land” permit for your anchors and a floating object permit for your buoys. They may require that you provide them with an insurance policy if you need the temporary use permit but won’t if you need only the floating object permit.

 

You will need the written consent of all neighboring landowners within a 1/4 (?) mile of the course and the permission of all bottom owners where your anchors will rest if not the State. You still need the floating object permit.

 

If you need insurance, call Wayne at (518) 891-2020 at Sportsinsurance.com

 

If you need help with the process, let me know. If you want to ski this summer, get going now.

 

I submitted a permit application for a jump on Lake Placid In February 2014. My application is still pending…

 

By the way, if you want to have a tournament on your public lake course, you will need a DEC regatta permit.

 

Good luck. A permit is doable but you’ll need to make a real effort.

[jjackkrash]

A thick moat of lily pads to keep out the wallies doesn't hurt. Location and traffic patterns are keys to success.

[markn]

Agreed it can be a hassle with course maintenance. Have had our courses for 20 years on my lake. Have found using 50 lb. Zip ties to hold buoy to the line works exceedingly well in preventing course damage. The buoy tears away with no PVC damage...more buoys, but that saves course repairs. Yes, bubba on a jet ski or some idiot wake board boat runs over the course, but keeping the buoy lines 6 feet long helps as well.

[dave2ball]

I too have gone through the permit process here in Fla. it is a pain. The biggest issue with putting in a permanent course is the survey. The person surveying the course needs a shoreline to shot the course in a floating dock will not work.

I would start with a floater course ie insta slalom and see how it goes over. The slowly place anchors on the bottom. The portable course will serve as a templet.

Check with your state and or county EPD and you should get some answers.

[PatM]

I agree with the statements on good relations with the neighbors and a level head when dealing with the unfriendly ones. While we have damage to the course from time to time (mainly over a busy weekend) we have been lucky. I think the biggest advantage we have had is that PWCs are not allowed on my lake.

[MDB1056]

No matter where you are it just makes sense to get permission . Strongly urge anyone not to just dump one in and say what the heck . Depending on the state and local scenes a number of factors come into play. You could also find yourself on the wrong end of significant civil litigation if someone was injured from the course you just dumped in , especially if it turns out there were strict requirements for such a thing. The lake I live on is public access but owned by the city, which has complete authority over such things. I do the portable course thing always which has never been a problem.

[BrennanKMN]

I run a permanent non-submersible course on public water. It is on a lake with no houses, otherwise I am sure it would be much more difficult to get the permit. I simply email the county every 2 years and get it renewed. The other course I used to be involved with was shut down after the land was developed and houses were built on the shoreline of the course.

 

There is a maintenance aspect, but if you have several parties using it that generally helps. I just ask people to keep a few spare balls, zip-ties and 5 foot ball ropes in their boats to replace parts as needed. Everything else I handle. Sink it in the fall and float it in the spring.

[markn]

If accufloat is still available, that is the course I would suggest. The course cable is in sections...buoy to buoy. If one section is damaged, only need to replace that one section rather than the entire main line. We did have an accu- sink course for several years on a public course. Tied the fill line to a cypress tree and used scuba tanks to fill it. Worked great for several years with very little maintenance. Hope it all works out for you.

[RAWSki]

Wally made improvements to the accufloat design, color coded modular sections and stainless plate connections really improved strength and durability. We have had our Wally version in for over 10 years maintance isnt bad and a few lost buoys over a holiday weekend is a small price to pay Definitely pontooners at night or just dropping anchor near the mainline is my biggest fear Most boaters just go around the course some cut thru --- a lot of PWCs will run the buoys and i have no problem with that. I have a couple ski buddies that used to get so worked up when they would see jet skis in "their course" but i have never seen a PWC do any real damage.... maybe knock a buoy off but thats it

[skierjp]

I agree with Mark. Accufloat is the best and the most durable. I’m pretty sure Accufloat is still available. Mike Suyderhound did have some serious health issues last year. You can sink or float a Accufloat in about 15 minutes. There are some tricks that go with that once you gain experience.

[MDB1056]

My first course was an Accufloat, with coated stainless line. In my experience accufloat is great for a permanent or semi perm course, but is terrible for a portable course. It’s very heavy duty, and a bear to work with compared to others such as EZ Slalom etc. Accufloat uses all schedule 40 pvc which is 2x as heavy as other portables use, also all the sections collapse into one, which sounds nice but that makes it very heavy to work with as you’re moving the entire length of the guide and arm all at once. Accufloat also uses stainless clips and eyebolts for connecting sections and guides, also heavy duty but an additional hassle factor vs pop up buttons, All this makes it super steady and strong once in but comparatively it’s a major PITA to get in and out. Stainless mainline is also much heavier and harder to reel in vs poly. Would love to see someone put in or remove an accufloat in 15 mins . I sold mine to a guy in Alabama that wanted the most heavy duty design possible for a semi permanent course, which is perfect for Accufloat . Once in its rock solid - but not at all user friendly to get in and out.

[dave2ball]

@Keukaskier take the advice of Marin and skierjp. I know them personally and I agree that the more heavy duty the course is the better. The arms won’t bow the mainline won’t stretch. It boils down to you get what you pay for. I know accufloat is an awesome and very accurate and reliable course.

[swbca]

In the Minneapolis 7 county area, almost all of the cities have permit requirements. If you install without a permit, and someone on the lake complains, you could end up with a visit from the police if you don't get a permit or remove the course. Since the DNR has top level authority over lake usage, I am not sure if the cities really have the authority to enforce their own permit requirements.

 

The DNR has top level juridiction and they don't require a permit for a course that is only UP during daylight hours. They don't require permission from the neighbor either. Not sure the cities can really enforce their rules . . but in practice they do enforce them.

[503Kento]

@MDB1056 we used to have an accufloat on public water. Yea, you can’t install it in 15 minutes but you can refloat it. We had clip on buoys and would remove them at the end of skiing and let the course drop to the bottom. When time to ski we either had a line from the bank to the course mainline or used a grappling hook to snag it pull it up and start clipping buoys on.

[thager]

@swbca In Boonieville, MN, we get our course permits from the county sheriff department not the DnR.

[swbca]

@thager Thanks, I just clarified your point in my post above. The Minnesota DNR delegates permitting to counties . . but many counties stick with the DNR's no permit rule for daytime slalom courses. Crow Wing county also interprets that to mean no permit for a submersible course as long as its not a surface obstruction at night. I don't know what legal standing the cities have, but many put difficult requirements on permits.

[BraceMaker]

Every time usaws asks I say the only thing I want is that they become the source of course permits negotiate with all the states Ill pay usaws to then let me write my usaws number on the balls.

 

Dont need anything else from usaws than that, get me my permit.

[skierjp]

@MDB1056 sorry I need to be more clear. I didn’t say remove in 15 minutes. I said sink or float in 15 minutes. Why would you remove it if you ski that area regularly? All those EZ install courses leave a lot to be desired when it comes to accuracy.

[skierjp]

@BraceMaker LOL, I’m with you. I live 20 minutes from USA Waterski and when I had troubles with a already approved permit for a course and a irritated neighbor that involved the Sheriff I couldn’t even get a response back from them and I know most of them that work their. I fought it myself and won. Thank goodness one of the Deputies used to be a Cypress Gardens skier. I have 3 permits for 4 courses on our lake. One permit is for 2 courses. Oh yeah, plus a jump permit! Thanks to Skip Dunlap for advice when we were getting started.

[Keukaskier]

Thank you for all your responses! I agree with getting permission. If I’m going to do this, I want to do it right. Looks like I need to start doing some research on permits. I’m thinking the permits needed are likely the same ones our yacht club acquires to set our racing courses. No resident owns out into the lake, so I think I’ll have to go through the state. NY

[Nadams928]

I’m sure this has been discussed but I saw on you tube, “intelligent-ski course” and another guy design on YouTube “Ezee buoy “

 

These guys need to get together ?. GPS self propelled stationary buoys. How cool would that be!

[MDB1056]

Yes. I’ve always thought that buoys that could simply be placed and held by GPS coordinates would be the ultimate . Drop them in, they migrate to accurate locations , self correct as needed, take them out when finished, repeat. No lines, arms, anchors,…. Sign me up.

[behindpropellers]

I installed a course in public water about 10 years ago. Went through the effort to get the permit done. First year we used a portable course...which was OK. The next year I built a course using a stainless mainline and SCH 40 PVC. The balls are attached to the PVC with surgical tube zip ties. The balls are filled halfway with water so the tube ropes glide over them. The course is going on ten years now. The only issue we have had is some issues with anchor hardware breaking last year. Make sure you GPS your anchor locations. If you put the effort into it, you can have a course that will stand up to boat traffic. In all honesty, it is more durable than the course we have on a private lake.

 

[Keukaskier]

They use self setting marks for racing sailboats, it would be pretty amazing for skiing! Basically it’s a sailing course set with gps driven buoys. Damn expensive though.

https://www.marksetbot.com/

 

 

[Mastercrafter]

I talked with James at Sure-Path about the GPS controlled drone-buoy course idea, and while anything is possible, it’s not practical. Just in GPS electronics it was something like $1500 per buoy, plus the systems and hardware needed for propulsion. Then package it all in a buoy system… viola, $100,000 for a 26-buoy course.

[Jmoski]

If you do set one up, use the solid foam boat guides from skiertoskier.com as they can take multiple prop hits and when a boater runs over one they thump the boat hard, which hopefully makes the boater think twice about doing it again…

[6balls]

Yes Sheriff's dept here not DNR. Didn't have any difficulty on the 3 public lakes we used. If there are complaints, though, then can be an issue--could make us pull it/them, but never been an issue over 20 years

[ironhorse]

I drop one in our public lake here in Canada. It has never been an issue, but you will find you are constantly replacing balls and for some reason a ski course seems to attract morning fishermen.

[ETskier]

Make friends with the fishermen. They hate wake-surf boats, jet skis, and tubers. Show them how you just go straight up and down the course, stopping at both ends, no power turns. Point out that you are chasing the fish over to the shore.

[BraceMaker]

@Mastercrafter my opinion is that for as much as we're going down the alley of tech what's really going to "solve" the slalom waterskiing on public water problem is VR goggles. Not full VR but just a heads up display type situation where balls would appear, maybe even linked sets for the driver and spotters so that everyone could have the same general experience or participate

 

You could have training modes with ideal skier paths or pull out/gate turn in and if you got clever could have it overlay actual courses to show you previous ski paths

[6balls]

Could buy an "off course" system if all else fails.

 

https://rodicsinnovation.com/product/offcourse/

 

 

[lpskier]

@ETskier My theory is that fishermen fish in ski zones because the concentrated boat and skiing action puts an abundance of O2 in the water, attracting the fish.

[slow]

It it was a $100,000 for a GPS course and it worked to perfection, it would be a viable option on our public lake. Permanent courses aren’t allowed and the water is very deep(100 plus quickly). A group of families could buy the system. You would have a lot less sun degradation and you could clean it after every use.

[skierjp]

@lpskier fishermen fish courses because of the structure the cable course and or the individual sub bouys and bouys create. Ask any fishermen or scuba diver.

[lpskier]

@skierjp That makes sense. But if they are fishing the area of the lake where a course is located because the structure that skiers installed makes the fishing good, perhaps said fishermen should be less pissed off and more cooperative/understanding when the skiers show up to ski. ;-)

[6balls]

@lpskier good luck with that. I've had fisherman break my PVC over the bow of the boat(portable in Wisconsin for a one week vaca). They often see it as one individual staking claim to a section of lake.

 

Unfortunate. Any course I have had how long do we ski? Not long and we are on one straight path during that time rather than out doing dunkin doughnuts or throwing surf waves. It would be easy to get along--there is so much lake OTHER than my course where one could fish--but they figure if they are there first, it's their right.

 

Worse, if we are there first, and running back and forth---some of these folks will slowly drift into the course while we are shortening up the line.

 

Now in honesty this is what happened in the metro on my bro Jim's course. Out in more rural MN with our 4 courses within 10 miles, VERY seldom an issue.

[Timr71]

Worse, if we are there first, and running back and forth---some of these folks will slowly drift into the course while we are shortening up the line.

 

We had a bass boat wedge themselves in between the shore and ball 2. They left pretty quickly after a wall of water landed in their boat when Sara rounded the 2 ball. In our defense, we tried to tell them that they needed to move out of the splash zone.

[GaryJanzig]

On Lake Latonka we have an Accufloat course. We attach the buoys to mason string using brass dog leash clips(most have held up 15+ years) to attach them to the eyebolts on the arms. We use the Orange buoys from Overton's and the bullet shaped yellow solid foam gates. I made the attachment eyes out of 1/2'' 3 strand rope and did an eye splice at one end and an end knot at the top of the buoy(yellow bullet shaped foam). The mason string holds up pretty well, but will break off if snagged by a tuber, jet ski etc. without ripping the course to pieces. We all keep spares in our boats. In the Fall we submerge the course by swapping out the buoys with plastic jugs(anti-freeze/washer fluid) which are half full of water at the gates, and 3/4 full out at the skier buoys. We are able to use landmarks on shore to find the course in the spring. I go out in my canoe, and my friend goes out in his rowboat. We have custom made grappling hooks(all edges are smooth) to find and swap out buoys on the course. It takes about an hour to sink, slightly longer to bring it up. Using the brass clips we can sink it and bring it back up with no tools required. I zip tied brass dog leash clips to the jugs we use as sub buoys for the winter. If you have more people helping you, could probably sink it and bring it up faster. We use a ratchet cable(come-along) at one end attached to a couple of loops on the anchor line at one end to adjust the tension to keep it straight. The cable and pipes are about 6 feet down from the water line on the buoys. The course has been there since the early 1990's with a small number of repairs over the decades. The lake is 2 miles long and a half mile wide. The course is out in the middle.

[BraceMaker]

@Timr71 careful there.

 

Most every state has some law against disturbing people who are hunting or fishing.

 

Being that if theyre near enough the turn ball to be sprayed you were almost certainly within 100 feet of them. our local DNR officers would have had no problem writing you up on that.