No more Waterski Boats??

[GaryJanzig]

Our sport is dying. Part is the cost, the other is lack of interest. Offered to teach 4 kids to ski over the past weekend. They would rather just ride a tube. They were used to getting pulled behind a pontoon boat. When I pulled them they had trouble staying on the tube. :smiley: The newest 3 event boat on my lake is a 2018 Pro Star. The rest are all wakeboard/surf boats. I will not be surprised if ski boats disappear completely in 20-25 years. The skiers on my lake have aged out, or moved away. The people moving in are more of a party crowd than a skiing crowd. 70% of the boats are pontoon boats now. The market for a direct drive ski boat is shrinking. People are restoring and refitting older ski boats since most people can't afford 100k or more for a new and in some cases a used boat.

 

 

 

[LoopSki]

@GaryJanzig ive tried to get multiple kids interested, including neighbors , nephews and friends kids since we have lived on the lake. Very few will even try , all quit after a few tries. I have them watch my son ski , they find it boring and uninteresting. Unfortunately he has now lost interest too because no other kids want to ski or watch. However the tube is a huge favorite. At least they are on the water.

[ScarletArrow]

I have to believe there will be some kind of market correction with wake/surf boats similar to what occurred in 08/09 with all boats.

 

The business model just doesn’t seem sustainable in the coming economic environment.

[jjackkrash]

My middle-school boy, his 2 cousins, and now two of his friends are all hooked on slalom and starting trick and hopefully when we get our jump in soon I'll have a mens college-starting line up of three eventers. It took some patience and a few carefully placed presents with RADAR logos stamped on them, but life is great.

[GaryJanzig]

@ScarletArrow I would like to see fewer surf boats out on the lake. Don't see much wakeboarding anymore, so you may be right.

[lpskier]

@ScarletArrow Good point. If we go into recession, $200,000 boats may no longer be attractive. Indeed, the big 3 might look to build some “affordable” boats in the $50k to 70k range.

[75Tique]

I realize this thread is about the demise of DD boats, not about slamming wake boats, but I had to respond to @Shell 's comments, since he described just about everything about our lake. It is a small (150 acre) quasi private lake. I say quasi private because it is in a neighborhood, inside a gate, limited access to the outside world, unlimited access to the 500 or 1000 residents, whatever it is. About 10 years ago surfing and wake boats were banned. Lake was too small for them. I was and am fully on board with the decision. The language was sloppy and had holes in it, but it has since been tuned up. No ballast (can be used) does not say no boats with ballast capacity), no wake enhancing devices (wedges, NSS.....) ropes must be longer than 30 feet and you must use a rope (I actually got an exemption for those for my BF boom since people whined about that based on the language) and finally, "no surfing" So we pretty much have the problem licked here (also, jet skis are not allowed, so its a win win) Meanwhile, in a sister neighborhood across the highway, with an 800 acre lake (or 1200 acre, not sure) They took no such action 10 years ago. Now they have a bunch of problems with surf boats, giant wakes, shoreline, bulkhead, tied up boats....you know the drill, and they are stuck. Cant take away an existing right. Cant say, you cant use your boat any more. They are grasping at the only straw they have and that is to grandfather existing but allow no more. But the existing is too much and too many, so they are pretty much screwed. Its one thing to say you have to stay 200, 400, 500 whatever feet from shore on a huge lake, but on lakes this size, it either yes or no. Fortunately for us, its a no.

 

As far as the original topic, who knows the fate of DD boats. Grow the market, down to 2 or 1 manufacturers, a decent $40,000 ski boat that can be tricked up to pro level options? A world full of well preserved used boats? Hard to say.

 

[chrislandy]

@75Tique that sounds like a very sticky situation for your neighbouring lake. Money tends to persuade people to change, an extra $10k/yr in maintenance charge for every wake / surf boat to service the erosion, marker buoy's to indicate the minimum distance to shore then use the grandfather rights on that boat and that owner, so when they change in a year or two, then they'll be subject to the new rules?

[Johnseed]

We live near a 300 acre reservoir which until last year only had a 23' length restriction and a slalom course, it's a public lake with homes all around it but only 2 boat ramps, both public. When we first started boating here in '99 most of the boats hanging in lifts at the lake were 3 event DDs from every era, now it's a mix of I/O runabouts, pontoons, and surf boats. I only see a couple newer DDs, most of the older ones are gone, however skiing seems to be coming back in the past few years. Surfing was banned last year but the boats still remain, they just can't use the wedges or ballast tanks. Pricing on new boats especially DD and watersport boats seems like a recipe for disaster for the sport. Used is the only way to go for many folks, not sure how that works out in 10 years with not many potential used boats coming on the market.

[Jody_Seal]

I am not sure why these boat manufacturers are still making competition boats in light of the current atmosphere in competitive waterskiing.

marketing a item in the waterski world where the end price to the boat consumer is far more then most skiing families can afford and really is not a good business plan.

those that can afford it are numbers wise not enough to take up factory line space where a big margin boat could be built.

membership decrease in the AWSA (customer base for that boat) also plays a big role in business decisions regarding how many units and cost underlinings to produce.

Bang for the buck no longer is what drives mid engine waterski specific boat manufacturing. how much electronics as well as gimmicks seem to drive the wake boat side really is a non driver in the ski boat side and that has been an impact because that side if manufacturing brings the widest and best sales margins.

for those of you that still believe a $40 k new ski boat can be built and accepted in the waterski fold are out if touch with reality of the world today.

then there is the gasoline thing!!

 

 

[skierjp]

If I did a survey of everyone I know that has a competition ski boat there would be more ski boat owners that are not AWSA members or possibly don’t even know what AWSA is!

I can take you to a private tournament site where you are allowed to use your own boat and out of all of them there may be 3 that are AWSA members.

[BraceMaker]

I have always though that when you look at this as a "sport" that the model of buying new boats, running them for a year or two, then obsoleting them as equipment is pretty ridiculous but hey that is what sells the boats.

 

But if you look at show ski or barefoot - those boats are outboards repowered as needed often repowered every few years and the hulls they run can be easily 10 or 15 years old.

 

I suspect that at a certain point the tournament hulls will be outpriced and that some sort of bespoke brand will have to crop up to special build hulls then you drop in whatever power plant you want.

 

 

 

[Shell]

@75Tique , I have a friend who also lives on a 150 acre very small lake and it’s a no sports/no wake lake. My friends love it that way, myself? I would never live in such a lake. We have a slalom course on our lake which I hold the permit to, it stays up 24/7, we ski early morning and know that after about 11am it’s done, usually pontoons and jet skiers start hitting the water. Then it’s our time to Jetski, hit the sand bar or even surf on friends boats and parasail on our own lake in Michigan, remember it’s a small 214 acre lake. We welcome jet skiers to run thru the course, we do it ourselves and have races to see who is the fastest. Is there times that buoys come off or fishermen get tangled in the cables? Yes, a few times a year, it’s all part of the course living on a public lake as well as a private lake, things happen and I expect that. So in the end you have to find a lake that suits you and your family, I don’t own a surf boat, but I do like to surf after skiing is over:)

[jpwhit]

A real optimistic crowd here ;) At the lake where I have my lake house, I taught at least a dozen kids to start skiing the course last summer. I have 2-3 new ones already asking me to teach them the course this coming summer. I know of 4 families that are lusting after a ProStar now that they've been in mine. They all want to sell their surf boats and buy a true ski boat. I predict we won't see the end of the Ski Boat and at least 2 manufactures will always have one on the market for the next two decades.

 

As someone that's come up through the technical ranks at companies that design, manufacture, and sell products. And ended up in the later part of my career having a lot of involvement in the business and strategy side. I tend to think that the big boat companies see some advantage in the diversification of having a ski boat in the product set. Especially in this day and age when there is lot of proposed regulation, or even outright ban of surf boats in some states / lakes.

 

Sure, in the short term when supply chain issues limit the number of boats they can build, it's smart business to perhaps shift some build slots to the most profitable models. But in the long term, as long as they can build and sell ski boats for a profit, and I can think they can, it makes business sense to do so.

 

And all this from someone that also has and really enjoys my surf / wake boat in addition to my ski boat.....

[thager]

Same in my neck of the woods and no desire to go woke USAWS.

[LoopSki]

@Shell i love running the course on my jetski. So much fun! Lol.

[Jody_Seal]

@skierjp

I guess my point being as far as membership partaly driving these decisions is with out real promo programs or at least some semblance of one manufacturers have lost a viable sales force.

for a couple company's that ment a guarantee of building 30-40 units a year Dedicated to USA waterski competitions. well at least thats how it was in less then a decade ago!

Correct craft had as many as 60 promo boats situated throughout the USA and Canada in the 90's

all manufacturers combined how many ski boats are going to be built in 2022? any one?? total estimate for US sales...??

 

Low margin item, low customer availability, hard margin to maintain warranty wise! most of the electronics are very costly and have very poor service life.

 

but wait!!! I know Electric!!! I can see it now!! USA waterski makes a rule no internal combustion towboats!! that will stimulate customer growth!!

 

then there is that gasoline thing!

 

 

[DW]

It would be interesting to see what % of tourney ski boats are purchased by serious skiers (ie: private lake owners, promo boats, hard core weekend warriors, etc) and a typical multi use family (where slalom/trick/jump use % is a relatively small amount). It does seem that on inland lakes the overwhelming new boat purchases are pontoons.

[jgills88]

This whole thread makes me wonder, are cable systems a solution to future boat issues?

 

Two tower systems are relatively cheap compared to a new boat (up to $80k according to a quick Google search), don't require gas, and can run all day without needing a full boat crew.

 

You can also run cable systems indoors as demonstrated by the Belarusian national team this past winter

[swc5150]

Having just jumped on the pontoon boat bandwagon, we took our debut cruise Friday night on our local river. It was shocking to see all the homes that used to have DD boats, now replaced with brand new pontoons. So many new pontoons that I quit counting them. Very eye opening to the current state of DD's in our area, which was a mecca for them just last year.

[unksskis]

So is there no MC 2022 promo program this year?

[Mastercraft81SnS]

There is definitely a market for older used ski boats I'm starting to see them all the time on the lake. It's mostly people who think you need to stand up and drive or have one as a status symbol.

[chrislandy]

@DW it probably depends where you are looking, UK and EU, new boats 98%, the other 2% being yacht tenders. All they do is thrash up and down the course at 34/36 all day.

 

As one of my friends said the other day "100k on a boat and you can't sleep on it?!"

[skialex]

@chrislandy you can sleep on it, just tell the wife you have spent 100k on a new ski boat…

[MISkier]

@unksskis, one of my fellow club members has a 2022 promo MC this year. I haven't heard anything about that program being discontinued.

[Hucklefin]

@chrislandy 100k sure, but imagine spending $350k on a top end wakeboat and STILL not being able to sleep on it.

[unksskis]

Thanks for clarifying @MISkier , there seems to be some that didn't from online postings.

[Jody_Seal]

 

profit margine!

 

[LoopSki]

@Jody_Seal that blows my mind that people spend that kind of money to surf.

[Jody_Seal]

@LoopSki And thats a 30 hour used one..

 

[swc5150]

Many don't pay that to surf. They pay that much to drink and show off at the local sandbar.

[MISkier]

The price is only that high because it has a full tank of gas.

[skierjp]

Actually I’ve seen them as high as 375k

[MISkier]

That one must have had ethanol-free premium in it.

[03RLXi]

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/boats-marine/motorboats/listing/3619205213?bof=4dVpoLS9 that's the equiv of US$370k

[chrislandy]

those new S & G's are just fugly

[ReallyGottaSki]

ocean waves are still free

[Jody_Seal]

 

don't waste this guys time!! no low ballers!!!

wait what ?

 

[UCFskier]

sounds like a friendly guy to buy an overpriced boat from

[slow]

Also cleans all debris off docks and shoreline

[Woodybc62]

Inflation is real. I was thinking about a Prostar w the 21 redesign. In 2020 the MSRP was listed at 75k and one could buy one in my area for mid 80s nicely equipped. In 2021 I could have bought a promo w 200 hours for 76k. Or order a new 22 (when we thought you’d actually have a chance to get it in 22) for 92k To order a 2023 they’re talking 120k! Pretty hard to justify in my view. With the economic downturn and interest rate increases (not to mention 5 dollar gas) the demand for all boats will drop significantly. I think the mfg know this and are shoring up their balance sheets for a downturn like 2008. Thoughts? 85k in 2020, 92k in 2021 and 120k in 2023 for essentially the same boat is unsustainable I say.

[Mastercrafter]

@Woodybc62 is $120k actually a real price you were quoted, and/or what people are actually paying? That’s nuts.

[jjackkrash]

@Woodybc62 's numbers are consistent with my experience. I could have ordered a new '21/22 new model MC loaded with the big engine for just under six figures. Now, not so much.

[Woodybc62]

@Mastercrafter Yes. Those are real numbers. Most dealers can’t even order one. Classic supply and demand. If all build slots are full why waste one on a 100k ski boat is not just MC boat co philosophy. And who can blame them I guess.

[ironhorse]

I fit into a lot of items being discussed on this thread. I have a 21 Prostar, ski on a public lake and am not a member of any club or association. I purchased my own ski course for our lake and have a great group of skiers that connect on the weekends when we are at the lake. I also have a surf boat (dont hate), as my kids were spending all their time with other families on their boats. IMO I did this to spend more time with my kids and can have them bring their friends. There are ways to use a surf boat to limit the annoyance to others on the lake and the beaches, but most of the owners of these barges are uneducated or just assholes. The next hated issue is seadoo's and jet ski's. We have 2 of each and my daughter and friends love these (I hate them). This keeps my teenage daughter coming to the lake and getting outside and enjoying the water rather than sitting inside on social media.

 

Sorry I went off topic on the ski boat issue, but my point is that regular casual skiers still purchase new ski boats (me) and that an educated person on the water makes the difference not just the watercraft (barge or seadoo) that they are using.

[Andre]

@ironhorse We don't hate you. Just jealous of all your toys!

 

No toon?

[ironhorse]

@Andre I have considered a toon, but I think my wife will kill me if I bring home another boat. In addition to all the crap listed in my last note, there is also the Lund for fishing with my son.

[jpwhit]

@ironhorse you need to add a Hobie Cat and a Pontoon. We use the Hobie when it’s too windy to ski or surf, and we use the pontoon as our floating dock out at the course complete with grill for cooking out. Pontoon is also invaluable for course maintenance.

[03RLXi]

@ironhorse sounds like you also need a Seabreacher

https://www.hydroattack.co.nz/

https://seabreacher.com/

[2Valve]

The Wake Boat ban was voted on at our recent Lake Assoc. meeting and it was rejected.