Zero base scoring

[BS74]

Just asking a simple question regarding ZBS: As a men's 9 skier for three years I am still skiing at 32mph. I'm thinking of skiing

one more Nationals before hanging up the ski(last Nationals was 2008) . Would I be able to ski at 32mph in men"s 9 ? I'm not talking about adding 6 bouys, just the raw score. In other words, does the rule only allow for actual speed(30mph) or slower?

[MISkier]

Rule 10.06 B.1 allows your 32 mph speed selection:

 

A skier may elect to start at a speed higher than his division maximum

speed, up to his respective Open Division maximum speed, and may not

return to his division maximum speed on subsequent passes. Any passes

skied at that higher speed shall receive credit for buoys as though they

were being run at his division maximum speed.

 

I believe what they will do regarding scoring is that the pass will be recorded as too fast, but the skier will decline the optional re-ride, as it is their intention to exceed the divisional speed.

[drmadd]

Maybe I haven't looked long enough on this site, but I don't see many comments on this Zero-Based Scoring. Is this a good idea?

I'm fine with anyone wanting to ski at any speed in a tournament, but the idea of getting extra points for skiing faster kinda bothers me. Particularly when you are not able to do so in a record tournament. Yet it counts for ranking. At some point everyone will eventually realize it's safer for old folk to back down a little.

I'm starting to see old, long-standing records go down because someone skied fewer balls, but did so because they were skiing faster (points). Maybe if one wants to ski faster, they can ski in a younger division and get the extra points in that division because they are older.

Just a thought.

[MISkier]

@drmadd,

Nobody is getting extra points for skiing faster. They are merely getting the number of buoys assigned to the particular rope length and speed combination that was in place long before ZBS started. A score of 5@34/-35 was worth 95 buoys before ZBS. A score of 5@36/-35 was worth 101 buoys before ZBS. The buoys (points) assigned to a rope length and speed combination did not change. What did change was allowing skiers in class C to receive the actual assigned score for rope length and speed combinations that exceeded their max divisional speed.

The more popular part of the ZBS change was to allow skiers to shorten the rope before they reached their max divisional speed. Previously, no shortening was allowed until a pass at max speed was completed. This was important to folks (and, primarily, kids) that did not want to ski faster, but still wanted to accumulate buoys for additional passes at less than max divisional speed.

Where are age division records falling due to ZBS? In Michigan, we do not allow an age division record to be set at a speed higher than max divisional speed. I don't know if the Midwest Region does it the same way, but I suspect they do. National records cannot be set higher than max divisional speed (class E/L/R does not assign score values above max divisional speed) and anyone skiing higher than max divisional speed at Nationals will have their score treated as though they skied at their age division max. Anyone skiing higher than max divisional speed will only be awarded the record if they ski more buoys on the rope length equal to or shorter than the record.

Here are 14 pages of just one ZBS thread on this site:

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/17096/zero-based-scoring/p1

There are other threads as well.

[lpskier]

@MISkier While I take your point, I think you are factually incorrect. When ZBS scoring was introduced, part of the new rule was to establish a base 15 mph start speed for all divisions. Prior, there were different start speeds for different divisions. The “Zero Base” of ZBS was to give all divisions the same start speed, so that buoy calculations all started from the same zero.

That’s why 6@35/34 mph is worth 96 while that same 6@35 at 32 mph is worth only 90.

 

Back during the ratings days, each division has a certain speed/rope length score to beat to get a division rating, not a calculated score.

 

You are also right that at one time you could not shorten the rope until you hit your division max speed, so, for example, before you could shorten h to -15, you had to run 36 (or slower by division) long line. That rule changed, for example allowing a M1 skier to start at, say, 15 off 34, but the next progression had to be 15/36. 22/34 was not allowed. 22/34 would be allowed today for that same skier. Of course you could always start at your max speed at any rope length.

[RichardDoane]

@lpskier check your numbers about 6 @ -35/32mph

[MISkier]

@lpskier, while it is true that the ZBS matrix did not appear in the rule book until after it was adopted in 2017, I happened to ski at both 34 and 36 (as IM and OM) since 2015 (before ZBS was adopted) and received the same scores/buoys/points for those performances that are assigned to those line length and speed combinations.

Exhibit A:

Below are some scores from late 2015 into late 2016. The actual screenshot is dated 8-29-2016, which is before ZBS. And, there are also scores from the ski year 2022. You will see 34 and 36 mph scores intermingled and I am receiving the same buoys for similar performances. So, those values did not change after ZBS. Please note that the 2022 screenshot from today does have errors associated with the division for those scores. For some reason, USA Water Ski re-classified all of my 2022 IM and OM scores to M5 in the last month or so. I skied tournament 22M021L as IM and 22M016C as OM. I did ski other tournaments as M5 at 36 mph and those scores are properly categorized. I have notified them of this error, which is currently inflating my M5 ranking score erroneously.

Your witness.

[lpskier]

@RichardDoane Fixed. Thanks for catching my typo. Since I now ski 32, you’d think I could get my own scores right!

[MISkier]

@lpskier,

Also, the minimum start speed for all divisions was 15.5 mph before ZBS.

Exhibit B:

I clipped the below passage from the 2009 rule book (the bolding was as in the rule book):

10.06 Boat Speeds and Line Lengths(a) The minimum starting speed for all divisions shall be 25 kph (15.5 mph). Atthe option of the LOC, a skier may start below the minimum speedand the pass(es) shall not be scored. At the option of the sponsoringclub as stated in its tournament announcement, or by majority vote of theAppointed Judges, the number of passes may be limited to a specific number.A speed increment is 3 kph (1.86 mph).

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@MISkier, @lpskier is correct, but perhaps not on the timing when 15mph became the standard starting speed. At least in the 1990's and early 2000's for example the min starting speed for M1/M2 was 30mph while M3 was 28mph. Other divisions were similar, but I don't remember the exact speeds.

[MISkier]

@Bruce_Butterfield, the assertion from John was that ZBS introduced the new minimum starting speed for all divisions as part the new rule and that was not the case - it existed before.

It is true, though, that even older history did have another approach to minimum starting speeds.

[RichardDoane]

but back to @drmadd 's comment about records, should there be an asterisk added to someone's new record at the higher speed ? the previous record holder did not have that option.

[MISkier]

@RichardDoane, do you know which records are able to be set or have been set with this option? That is one question to answer to see if that is being allowed. If it is happening, I do agree it should be distinguished as such.

[RichardDoane]

it was this weekend that Dr.Madd is referring to. A Men7 skier that still skis at 34, runs 4 at -38 for a score of 100 bouys. the old record was at 32 mph so 6 less due to speed difference

[MISkier]

@RichardDoane, was that for a State record, Regional record, or what?

[jjackkrash]

The rule as quoted above in post 2 states "Any passes skied at that higher speed shall receive credit for buoys as though they were being run at his division maximum speed."

Is this the current rule? I read that as you can ski faster, but no "extra" credit for above-age-max speeds.

Am I missing something?

[MISkier]

@jjackkrash, that is the rule for class E/L/R, not class C. You will get the credit for buoys at the actual rope length and speed combination that was skied (even if it exceeds age division max) in a class C tournament. And, that score will factor into your ranking average for AWSA/USA Water Ski.

[RichardDoane]

true, it's only for C events, and local area records

[MISkier]

@jjackkrash, here is rule 10.06 B.2, which explains the exception to the aforementioned rule 10.06 B.1:

In Class C tournaments, the skier may opt to ski at higher maximumspeeds, up to 58kph (36mph) for male divisions and 55kph (34.2) forfemale divisions, excluding juniors, at their discretion. In this case, theskier shall receive credit for the buoys run at the higher speed.

[jjackkrash]

Thanks for the clarification. In appreciate it.

[drmadd]

So back to my original question. If you ski 2mph faster, you get 6ea extra points toward your rankings, correct? Can you use the extra points for a record, even ifyou actually ran fewer buoys?

[MISkier]

You get more points for skiing the same rope length at a higher speed than a lower speed.

You cannot use it for a National record, as you are not allowed to receive those points in an E, L, or R tournament, which are the only classes allowed for setting a National record.

As for setting a State record, that will depend on your State. In Michigan, the Michigan Water Ski Association decided not to allow that and require the records to be established at no higher than the age division max speed. The score recorded in the scorebook for a class C is irrelevant of that for setting a record. In fact, we only allow our State record to be set at the State Championship tournament in a round that is considered for placement in the respective event.

As for a Regional record, that will depend on your region. Would be a good question to ask them.

As for your point about running fewer buoys, I don't see how that math works out. But, it is true that the record achieved (or equaled) at the higher speed could be on a longer rope.

Consider this:

Skier A and Skier B are in the same division with a 32 mph max speed. Skier A could start at 32 mph and 15 off, Skier B could start at 32 mph 15 off. After they both complete their first pass, Skier A could shorten to 22 off. Skier B could speed up to 34 mph and remain at 15 off. Skier A gets 4 buoys on the second pass. Skier B also gets 4 buoys on the second pass. Their numerical score is equal according to the value given to their respective rope length and speed combinations and, in fact, they skied 10 physical buoys each. The virtual buoys they skipped and were credited via their starting speed and line length were identical. Skier B did not ski fewer buoys, they skied the same - they just did theirs on a longer rope.

[LeonL]

Regional record.....all Regionals that I know of run R, E or L, so the score in the book will reflect the score of the division max.

[MISkier]

@LeonL, in the Midwest Region, these are the possible records:

• Midwest Regional Championship Records: Records based on performances at Midwest Regional Tournaments.

• Midwest Tournament Records: Records based on performances at any sanctioned class “C” or higher tournament held in the Midwest Region.

• Midwest Skier Records: Records based on performances by Midwest Region skiers at any record capability tournament regardless of tournament location.

The first and third would require categories other than C, so the score in the book would reflect the division max, as you noted.

To my knowledge, the second category (Midwest Tournament Records) does not recognize records achieved at higher than max divisional speed. However, I do not have definitive confirmation of this.

[lpskier]

@drmadd To answer your question, in a C tournament, you can ski any speed up to 34 mph for women and 36 for men. In a class L tournament, you can elect to ski in a younger division and thus ski at a faster speed. The only place you are short changed is in an E where you can neither ski faster nor younger. If this E rule bothers you, buy the $25 IWWF license and ski L.

[drmadd]

The above comment really doesn't answer the original question. We need to consider the specifics of the whole forum string, above. The question seems whether or not the extra speed and extra given points will count toward a regional area record. Yes, the rules for R and L seem clear, but in a C tournament, one apparently earns extra points for the extra speed towards one's rating.

It seems that the speed rules were established for a reason. As a safety director, I pay attention to skier injuries. I am seeing an increase in injuries to skiers who don't back down their speed as they age. Perhaps that's the reason AWSA slowed us old folks down. Perhaps skiers should be able to ski at the speed they are comfortable with, but not feel pressured to ski faster than their comfort level to gain extra points.

Just wanted to add another out of context note about jumping. From what jumpers are telling me, slowing down can also be dangerous. For example, at the older levels jumping at Nationals -- a couple of excellent jumpers have had to cut later to gain speed for distance. Perhaps they would have had a better (safer) outcome if they could have skied at faster speed.

[Drago]

@drmadd It depends on the region. I think most require an E or higher for a record.

Perhaps skiers should be able to ski at the speed they are comfortable with, but not feel pressured to ski faster than their comfort level to gain extra points.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous⬆️. They are grown men and women. How many increased injuries have you seen and how can you be sure they are a result of just speed?Set your clock back about 10 years for ZBS discussions.

[MISkier]

@drmadd, the Regional record would depend on whether the Region in question allows for the buoys/points earned for speed greater than maximum age division. The only way to know for your particular Region is to pose the question to your Regional EVP.

I do think that any records (should they be allowed) set using speed greater than age division maximum should receive a designation separate from any prior records set before ZBS. Also, the original record should remain until it is exceeded at the same speed or speeds allowed at the time of the original record (should the prior record be at a speed less than divisional max). It is only fair, as the option to exceed age division max speed did not exist at the time those pre-ZBS records were set. It is an open question as to what should happen after the original pre-ZBS record is broken at age division max speed (or less) when the ZBS option is available. Should that record then be able to be replaced by one achieved at a speed greater than age division max, since both skiers would have had the option to do so post-ZBS?

[lpskier]

In the Eastern Region, we keep track of CELR and ELR separately. Then everyone is happy.

[drmadd]

Interesting comments. Anyway, just a can of worms. Its never easy.

[lpskier]

Here’s an interesting problem. L tournament with required Sure Path. Skier wishes to ski above division max speed. WSTIMS doesn’t offer a speed above division max for the skier (unless you change his division to, say, International Men) , so your only work around- and that gets you to the correct scoring result, which using IM does not- is to put the speed at the division max even though the boat is going faster. Unfortunately, with Sure Path, this results in speeds out of tolerance every pass. Since the speeds are “hot” the reride is optional and so can be ignored, but all of this seems very confusing for a scorer. And you end up with a confusing scorebook.

[JackQ]

My understanding is that L and R tournaments are run under IWSF rules and with IWSF your Max speed is the "Maximum" allowed

[lpskier]

IWWF rule book is silent. ASWA Rulebook provides:

“10.06 Boat Speeds and Line Lengths(May be used for all Classes but certain scoring options do not follow with IWWF scoring, i.e., a skier will need to make a complete pass at maximum speed before the pass will count on the IWWF ranking list).

---

B. The maximum allowed boat speeds shall be as follows:

1. A skier may elect to start at a speed higher than his division maximum speed, up to his respective Open Division maximum speed, and may not return to his division maximum speed on subsequent passes. Any passes skied at that higher speed shall receive credit for buoys as though they were being run at his division maximum speed.
2. In Class C tournaments, the skier may opt to ski at higher maximum”

[lpskier]

So clearly in the USA, skiers in “all classes” can elect to “start” at a speed faster than the division max, but the pass is scored as if at the division max. Since the rule’s preamble discusses the IWWF impact, my reading would indicate that you can ski above your division max in a class L tournament sanctioned by AWSA. No?

[Drago]

I would think L is iwwf (and silence on a non-rule)E is awsa

[lpskier]

@drago. Fair conclusion, but I believe AWSA Rule 10.06 B applies in an L.