do you change your ZO setting?

[Horton]

I might have learned a lesson the hard way this week.

[LeonL]

I don't get enough time behind other brands/year/model to know what changes to make. 

[Mateo_Vargas]

A people seem pickier than the C people. B people just don't care.

[dave2ball]

@Mateo_Vargas the people who pick B can’t make up there mind between A or C

[Drago]

Yep.

 I use + on v.S, so have to get creative when v.R shows up (where + just sucks)

gotta pump up the malibus and centurions a bit too

Edited June 17, 2023 by Drago

[thager]

No, Never skied behind a (both) WTF?

[markn]

@Horton interested in your hard learned lesson...if you care to elucidate.  

[chrislandy]

I don't personally, but voted yes because almost everyone that has been behind mine that uses A2 on a Nautique (200 and Ski) prefers A1 on the Prostar

[lpskier]

I usually ski A2 but B1 works better for me behind a Malibu. This past weekend, I skied in a tournament that was pulled by MC. Second and third round had a straight stiff head tail and I had loose line in the tail wind. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, so third round I switched from A2 to B1 for the tailwind -32 and boom! I had a tight line in the tailwind. 

[The_MS]

90% B1 but if I feel out of sync with a boat I have not skied behind, I move to C1.  
Leave the number the same if you are used to that length of throttle. Thats all I’m looking for is the pick up point. 

[ghutch]

Just my thoughts here... probably won't amount to a hill of beans. 6ft 3 in, 205 lbs, ski 34 mph getting into 38 a little deeper on a good day.. 3-4 buoys. Tried different settings today and last time out without being told what they were. Mainly settling around B2 and C2.  Stiff head wind and tail wind today also. Skied my normal 28-32-35 and 3 and 4 @ 38. Wasn't told what they were and changed on every other pass roughly. Couldn't tell a difference. My question is at the line lengths I'm at, and most skiers, do you think the settings really matter? I really can't tell much of a difference so does it become more critical for the 38 and beyond skiers? Has anyone else tried doing something like this?

[Horton]

Until last week I was one of those guys who thought it did not make that a huge difference. I had moved around and settled on A2 because that is what Fred Winter told me to do. With the ProStar I never thought it was a big deal.

Last week I was skiing behind a Malibu which is not my usual jam but is a fine boat. I had never disliked the Malibu before. First ride everything felt weird including my gate pull out?!?!?!? I missed my first pass and never found my groove for a whole ride. On the second ride behind the Malibu I randomly moved to B2 from A2 and to my surprise it was VERY different and a lot more to my liking. Suddenly I could ski again.

Next day I skied a tournament behind the Ski Nautique which I always struggle behind and had tried every setting in the past. Normally I go A2 and struggle but I went B2. I did not ski amazing behind the Nautique but it did not suck. Now I want to try C2 and C1 behind the Nautique. 

The lesson for me is that even if I think one setting was right for a boat last year I need to re-test. Maybe my skiing changed? Maybe the boat programing changed? Maybe it is the props. IDK. 

[dave2ball]

@Horton  the overwhelming choices behind the nautique is either A2 or C1. I personally don’t know anyone using B. 

[ScottScott]

You never really hear much comparison between ZO settings and ropes....but the amount of stretch in the rope is similar to the ZO settings. A more stretchy rope would be more like an A setting, and a stiff rope would be like a C. Maybe with a stiff rope, an A setting would feel better, and a stretchy rope could feel better with a C....?

[ral]

10 hours ago, dave2ball said:

@Horton  the overwhelming choices behind the nautique is either A2 or C1. I personally don’t know anyone using B. 

Interesting… Everyone here shares this view? If so, I might thing testing something other than B. 

[jpwhit]

Hmm, I use different settings between my Nautique at the ski club lake, and my ProStar at the lake house because the Nautique has a firmer pull by default and using the different settings makes things feel more similar. Both boats are 5.7L. I've always wished my ProStar had the 6.0 or 6.2 as a result. 

But last year I also bought both medium and low-stretch s-lines ropes to try out. And I did the rope comparisons at the ski club lake behind the Nautique and liked the medium stretch. Now I'm wondering if I should try the low-stretch rope behind the ProStar with the same Zero Off settings I use behind the Nautique to see if I like that better. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by jpwhit

[Horton]

@jpwhit my speculation is that perhaps the 6.2 liter boats show a bigger difference between settings then 6 L boats. All the way back at 5.7 I think it is almost all the same 

[jpwhit]

@Horton that's good to know because I actually have a 6L engine I could put in my ProStar but I wasn't sure it was worth the effort. And my other choice is to put the 6L in my 98 Nautique bubble butt, I'm fixing up so it would be a ZO boat. As opposed to putting the 6L in the ProStar and the 5.7L in the 98, which would be a lot more work. 

[david_ski]

I ski on B2 with my boat (03 196 with Zoff) and a 14 200 both with 5.7L. I have found that skiing in tournaments behind 6.0 & 6.2L promo boats (Malibu, Nautique, and MC), I ski better with the B1 setting.

[Mastercrafter]

I've ventured down a bit of a ZO rabbit hole and now I need some thoughts. 

I've been B2 across all boats and engines since I started skiing, except for a few experiments with A2 last year which I did not like but didn't give them much time. 

Ski club got a 6.2 TXi this year and I felt like the boat was always on me with B2. Tried A2, "instant fix", felt great. Sold on A2 for that boat.  

Then tried A2 on a 6.0 Nautique 200... again, felt good, stayed with A2. 

THEN tried A2 on my 5.7 Prostar, felt good, kept with A2, but that boat is now 100 less HP than the TXi and feels pretty soft. 

I know it may be anyone's guess, but what the best way to make the 5.7 Prostar feel a little stronger or more like the TXi and 200? Back to B2, or A2+, or A3, orrrr?

I know a lot of skiers around here are A2 Nautique, then B2 for 6.0 Prostar. 

This sport is ridiculous. 

 

[markn]

Recently switched back to C2 from A2 on my ZO 196 and the 200 and Ski Nautique at Swiss.  Works much better for me in keeping a tight line and load at the finish of the turn.

[aupatking]

I’m C1 behind my 196. I never know what to use in tournaments, typically behind new Ski Nautique. I told Rini that when I skied with him in June. Pretty sure he ran me A1 or A2 and I liked that. Now I wish I remembered which it was. 

[dave2ball]

@aupatking Rini is an A2 guy. Try there first. He switched me also. Have not looked back since 

[PatM]

B3 on every boat.  Probably should try more but I'm too chicken

[Horton]

I'm going to get some hate for saying this but.... 

I have come to the conclusion that ZO settings are nearly irrelevant on boats that do not have direct injected motors. The distance between A and C on the current Malibu or the Nautique is far more impactful than it is on the ProStar or any boat with an older technology engine. 

[vtmecheng]

Does anyone have the figure that shows differences between settings? I have not been able to find that and any reference to it on BOS was lost in the server transition.

[markn]

Just my experience, but I submit there is a very palpable difference between A and C  (Rev S) on my old 196.  

[Horton]

@markn You think it is a similar magnitude as with a new Nautique?  

[vtmecheng]

I only ever ski ZO behind a Prostar and that is the boat used at local tournaments here. To-date I have only ever tried B2 but I'm far from short line. Every driver and observer says that I am on the smoother side, with soft pickups out of the turn and progressive leans. This discussion has me wondering if I'd be better at A2. Maybe I'll give it a try this afternoon for kicks.

[Dano]

2023 pro star B2.  2023 Malibu C1. Can’t remember the years but most  200’s  A2.  2006 197tt C1.  

[101driver]

Slightly off topic. I ski behind a wide range of boats. My bench mark is 200's with ZO which with one exception is all A2 my instructor runs his on A1 for me. My own boat is a prostar 190 injection 4 blade prop on PP with 45 pull factor which gives the nearest I can get to the 200 ZO feel.(about 75% of the pull back when you gas it)  Every other boat malibu centurion I play with to get as close to the 200 ZO feel.

One boat I can't get anywhere near it's a 2012 200 injection with ZO and there is no pull at all. It's a really good mates boat with very low hours so I need to be diplomatic but me and others really hate skiing behind it. when you "gas the zero off" nothing It holds speed, it sort of follows the correct a-c 1-3 pattern but just like 10% of the pull. Has anyone experienced this. As it's not my boat and I value the friendship I can't just start ripping the boat apart but if there is a stupid fix I would really appreciate the advice. When you finnish the pull behind the boat there is nothing there just waddles down the course slowly picking up speed. 

[Hockdog]

[Mastercrafter]

45 minutes ago, Dano said:

2023 pro star B2.  2023 Malibu C1. Can’t remember the years but most  200’s  A2.  2006 197tt C1.  

Is the Malibu a 5.3 or 6.2? 

[markn]

@Hortonagain, maybe it is just me and my technique (or lack thereof), but I felt the same magnitude of difference going from A2 to C2 on my 196, the 6.0 200 and the 6.2 Ski Nautique.  Obviously in better ski shape a long way into the season and skiing stronger.  Totally agree with you the difference is far less noticeable if you start with a given setting different than your usual as opposed to changing settings mid set.  That is where, at least to me, there is a very noticeable difference.  For reference, in training for a tournament, not knowing what boat was provided, for a week, I had my driver just pick a random letter ( and + or not).  All very similar results.  But the other day after skiing C2 to whole set, went back to A2 and hated it because I felt a huge difference.

[vtmecheng]

39 minutes ago, Hockdog said:

This says that the x-axis start is at the time the skier begins to load the boat, what is the right most point of the x-axis? Is it the next ball, half way between the two balls, or some random point/time after the skier begins to load the boat? I am guessing that "RPM increase" is actually intended to be the label for the y-axis.

Whomever made this should take a 7th grade general science class again to learn how to make meaningful graphs.

Edited August 15, 2023 by vtmecheng

[Dano]

@Mastercrafter Malibu was the 6.2.   For my skiing i find I choose the C1 for boats that feel like they are on me relentlessly.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Dano

[jhughes]

It's probably worth putting out a PSA on the difference between DI motors and MPI motors. I think some people know and are catching on, but some still don't.

If the motor is a modern (post-2016) 5.3L or 6.2L it is a Gen 5 DI motor. Direct injection. This is the latest generation of GM small blocks and features  high compression (11:1), extremely high fuel pressure (~2100PSI), variable valve timing, all aluminum block and heads. These motors are lightweight, smooth, very responsive, and fuel efficient. Fuel is sprayed directly into the cylinder at the top of the compression stroke. Nautique came out with these initially in 2016. Other manufacturers followed a few years after.

Malibu got these a couple years ago, and MC offers them, they took a while on the 5.3 but I see it in the catalog at least.

Malibus are 1:1 transmissions, Nautique and MC are reduction transmissions.

The 6.0 is MPI, Multi-port Injection (previous generation technology), where the fuel is mixed within the intake manifold vs. being sprayed directly into the combustion chamber.

 

[Horton]

@markn

interesting stuff. My comments are based on some assumptions that could very possibly be incomplete. I feel like behind the ProStar or something like an old 196 I can pretty much ski any letter number and it does not feel radically different. On the other hand, I've never done a blind back to back test with multiple boats and multiple settings.

[scoke]

@vtmecheng

 

Interesting prospective. Let me give you some back story.
 

the author of those graphics is a professional engineer and successful mechanical engineer. The graphs are rooted in bending moment diagrams based on load and moments. They are fantastic actually. 
 

his graphs were built after my graphs were built. I took a different approach and had a wider audience with my graphs and were even more simplified. 
I interview ~10 big dawgs and 35off or better skiers in 2007-2009 to develop my  graphs. He narrowed the audience and built them for technical folks. 
 

my write up and graphs were posted on Schnitz skis for years. 
 

 

are you available to help me test data for these DI engines? What line length and speed do you run? Do you have access to a variety of boats? Would you like to come down to Okeeheelee to test data for the Gen3 graphs? Do you have the ability to load the data in Tableau or PowerBi? I’m open to using excel. 
 

Look forward to you helping and being a core part of a team with their own energy  for the community!!

 

I’ll be on standby checking my engineering degree to see if it’s only a 6th grade vs 7th grade. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by scoke

[vtmecheng]

@scoke Did I say that your values were wrong, that the representations require additional testing, or that you need peer reviews of the data? Nope. I said that the graphs do not provide labels of what the x-axis and y-axis are or provide a reference to what the extremes mean. I know that those are included in 7th grade science class because my wife teaches middle school science.  Does that mean you are a bad engineer? Nope. As an engineer in a national lab I peer and senior review many reports written by good engineers where I have to tell them the graph is inadequate or not understandable. I am blunt and have no problems saying the truth to someone in person so that products are improved.

You were so worried about trying to show me up that you didn't answer my questions. Most importantly, what is the x-axis and what are the left and right extremes?

[Horton]

OMG @scoke & @vtmecheng can we please not turn this into an Intergalactic Battle Royale about data graph labels. 

[scoke]

Understood. Last post but it’s interesting as someone is critiquing and criticizing other people’s work and has the reading comprehension of a lab rat while not willing to do any work that was offered. 
 

You’ve  said many times, don’t criticize others and the work and energy people put into words. 
 

I’m apologizing , sorry if my offer hit a nerve on your insecurities. My offer stands if you want to come ski and we build new graphics together. 

[vtmecheng]

@scoke I asked a couple of questions and am sorry that I made the 7th grade comment, I should have left it at the questions. You are spending so much energy trying to offend me that you still haven't provided answers. I assure you that my insecurities have no relation to this conversation but your haste in trying to find a nerve and avoid answers tells me a lot about yourself. 

@Horton that's it, I'll stop now.

[MattP]

[DW]

@Horton  From the graphical representation of RPM change the asymmetry of A & C settings are both where it happens and the rate of RPM change on the accel & decel side.  B is symmetrical in both (theoretically).  Do you think the effect you are feeling or not liking is due to the more instantaneous response of a DI engine, specifically on the decel side (rather than the accel side) leaving you with less line pressure at that point or what you are expecting or used to?  It would be fun to have rope load data to look at to see if there is any correlation, although I would bet it's probably mired in the white noise of the data.

[The_MS]

@scoke Can you add a small skier with handle and rope extended to the line on the graph? 

[Drago]

16 hours ago, vtmecheng said:

@scoke I asked a couple of questions and am sorry that I made the 7th grade comment, I should have left it at the questions. You are spending so much energy trying to offend me that you still haven't provided answers. I assure you that my insecurities have no relation to this conversation but your haste in trying to find a nerve and avoid answers tells me a lot about yourself. 

@Horton that's it, I'll stop now.

Seems like you're breaking rule #1 , @vtmecheng

[rfa]

WOW...so much "anger", as @Horton says "about data graph labels." 

But to answer @vtmecheng question. This is a qualitative graph depicting engine  response (RPM) vs. the detection (time) of skier load.

The X-axis represents TIME. Starts (left end corner) at the point when the skier loads the line 
The Y-axis represents engine RPM - magnitude 

Bottom line it shows (qualitatively) "when/how much/how fast" the engine responds to  skier load. Really, that's all.

[Roger]

We have all three hulls to drive and ski behind at Okeeheelee. I use B2 with the Prostar and Malibu. The Nautique feels firmer to me so I use B1. As a driver, I notice a lot of B and C use with the Prostar and Malibu. The vast majority of skiers seem to use A2 with the Nautique.

My ski partner just traded in his Prostar for a Nautique, so I may get a bit more time to try A and/or C settings with it since I usually only get a set with one in a tournament.

[Horton]

final notes on my experiment.

I managed to get in about six rides behind the nautique before Nationals. I used C1 for all of those rides and was able to transition to the boat pretty successfully. I am thoroughly convinced that the ProStar is much less setting sensitive than the Malibu and the Nautique. The nautique being the most critical.

Kind of a secondary lesson for me was that my gate timing and turning doesn't have to be nearly as good behind the ProStar. I was surprised to find how critical my water speed and turn in intensity was behind the nautique. in the end I skied as well behind the Nautique as I do behind any boat but it was certainly a transition.