Zero Off Tournament and Recreational Diferences

[Stevie Boy]

Can anybody enlighten me on the differences between Zero Off Tournament mode and Recreational mode, especially what the boat is doing on the setup and gate shot ?

Thankyou

[LeonL]

Somebody may say I'm wrong, but it seems the same to me, except speed of course. (The only reason to be in rec mode)

[Stevie Boy]

I ask because we have a short setup, the new boat struggles to get to 36mph probably half a boat length before pre gates,  I  drive. 35-38 off skier he is struggling to get the feel he is looking for, but said it feels better in recreational mode, he skis at another lake, different water and longer setup with no issues, he was quite happy until we got the new boat, I drive him the way I  have always driven him, but just lately he showing signs of frustration, not being able to work it out.

Not sure if the boat can be remapped, remembering we run gas injected LPG in the UK 

.

[Shell]

Recreational mode is for training, you can move the speed up and down in small increments . To my knowledge, there should be zero difference on set up and at the gates

[Ali]

41 minutes ago, Stevie Boy said:

I ask because we have a short setup, the new boat struggles to get to 36mph probably half a boat length before pre gates,  I  drive. 35-38 off skier he is struggling to get the feel he is looking for, but said it feels better in recreational mode, he skis at another lake, different water and longer setup with no issues, he was quite happy until we got the new boat, I drive him the way I  have always driven him, but just lately he showing signs of frustration, not being able to work it out.

Not sure if the boat can be remapped, remembering we run gas injected LPG in the UK 

.

It would not hurt to remap zero off. I sometimes ski rec mode on a short set up and have not felt any difference. If it is 2 different boats that you are using  then I would understand different feel as well as the water.

[JackQ]

I use the recreation mode so I can practice a few tenths faster than actuals.  I don’t feel any difference between the two.

[jpwhit]

Which boat, engine, hours, and prop?

Edited September 8, 2023 by jpwhit

[lpskier]

Might be a prop solution rather than a ZO solution. ZO engages when you get to speed. If you’re not getting to speed soon enough, there’s nothing ZO can do to help you. 
 

[Stevie Boy]

Boat hours 90  engine 6.0 prop the same as the other boats that we have had,.

Would like to know the latest revision of Zero Off ?

I  am thinking rev S, would 2023 nautique ship with rev S ?

Edited September 10, 2023 by Stevie Boy

[LeonL]

Rev S is latest.  I see no reason why a 2023 boat would come with over 2 year outdated software.

[Kelvin]

You would think so, but you never know for sure until you check.  I had to replace my head unit long after Rev S had come out.  It came with Rev R on it.  It was an easy upgrade when I called them about it since I had already upgraded my old head unit.  

[gsm_peter]

Could the new boat be a tad bit heavier?

[Stevie Boy]

To be honest, I am not sure if anything is wrong, at all,  it,s just that two very good skiers are telling me that the boat seems to be gassing them in the wrong place on tournament mode but not recreational mode, which clearly does not add up if both modes react the same.

 

[LeonL]

@Stevie Boy why don't you try mixing it up on them?  Don't let them know the mode.  Just doesn't make sense that there is a difference.

[jpwhit]

Is it single or dual puck Zero Off. If it's dual puck, and the pucks don't have updated firmware. It will  randomly do that because of the GPS Week Rollover bugs. 

[jpwhit]

32 minutes ago, LeonL said:

Just doesn't make sense that there is a difference.

As a software developer, I can think of a lot of reasons the Tournament and Recreation mode could be different. And I've often wondered if they are different. The problem is that the only people that could give us a definitive answer are the software developers at eControls. But it's unlikely that they will answer the question. 

The only other way I can think to definitively answer the question would be to instrument the boat with another set of the same sensors that Zero Off is using. Which would be the same GPS pucks for speed, accelerometers, RPM sensor on the engine, and Throttle Position sensor data. Then collect data for both modes and compare it programmatically. That's an amount of work that doubt anyone will be willing to do to answer the question. 

[LeonL]

There are probably lots of reasons they "could"  be different, but I would think more reasons to think they're the same.  It would require additional coding instead of relying on the same code already there.

Just my thoughts.

[liquid d]

We drive with rec mode quite a bit in the spring to take the speed up a bit. We also have a short setup on one end. We don't notice any difference between rec and tournament mode.  My guess is the boat just isn't to speed yet for the gate pullout.  We pull the skier out of the hole from an extreme angle (at 38/39) with the boat close to shoreline to get that extra 40 feet or so, giving the boat a couple more boat lengths to reach speed.

[dave2ball]

Rex mode and tournament mode  are the same other than Rex mode you are able to increase speed by  .1 increments.  

[jpwhit]

There are only a small number of standard speeds in tournament mode. So it would be easy to develop the software with key tuning parameters to be pre-defined in a table for those set speeds. And we do know there is different tuning for different boat / engine combinations baked into the Zero off software. In recreation mode, the number of speeds that can be selected is more on the order of 200 speeds. So it would be much more work to handle that with pre-set values. They would have to be calculated values. Therefore they would probably use an algorithm to calculate values for those speeds even if it weren't quite as precise. 

I'm not saying that's how it works. I think there is a better than not chance that it is exactly the same. My point is there are pretty plausible reasons where it would be cheaper to develop with a different approach to recreation mode. 

[jjackkrash]

Is the course mapping function and entrance-gate speed relevant in rec mode?  I was under the impression it wasn't (and specific to tournament mode) but you learn something new every day.  

Edited September 11, 2023 by jjackkrash

[skihart]

Have you emailed ZO to ask them?

i am curious about this as well as I ski in rec mode quite a bit to adjust at my hardest pass. 

[Drago]

I was under the impression rec mode was b2, but the poet in me says this was a long time ago and I have no clue.

[Stevie Boy]

Unsolved mystery, apparently the boat feels OK now!
 

🙄

[ReallyGottaSki]

Consider hand drive a pass and if still can't reach speed in sufficient time for setup then you know its boat not the zo

[mlange]

My questions are along the same lines as @jjackkrash

Is the speed at the gate different in rec mode?

Similarly, if I am open water skiing (no mapped course) is there a difference?

 

[ProStah_Skiah]

@mlange I alternated a skier between 32.2 mph tournament and recreational this morning. The boat entered the course at the expected ~32.5 mph in both modes.

[mlange]

@ProStah_Skiah  That's not necessarily what I'm asking.  What I'm wondering is what it will do if you run in tourney or rec mode *without* a mapped course.  Think just open water skiing with ZO.

[Sethro]

@mlangeWe ski all the time in rec mode because of the current on the river.  Supposedly, you select your ABC setting, then go into rec mode and it'll retain that setting until it's switched again.  No noticeable difference in pull I can tell.  The newer, integrated ZO screen on the Malibus we ski offer "training mode" instead of rec mode, and speeds are adjustable in 0.1 mph increments and ABC settings can be changed like normal.

[dave2ball]

@mlange ZO will act or ski the same. The only difference is you can control the speed by .1 increments. 

[jpwhit]

@mlange If there is no mapped course, you're not going to get a bump in speed as you enter the course and you're not going to get course and ball times. That will be the case whether you're in Rec or tournament mode. And in Rec mode you have to switch screens to see the ball times anyway. So I doubt anyone ever looks at them. 

[mlange]

Thanks @jpwhit  Figured there would be something different w/ the "gates" if we're skiing open water.

[markn]

Be certain to select your desired A,B,C, 1,2,3 setting in tournament mode BEFORE going to practice mode.