Do the trick points tables make sense

[Horton]

If you list all tricks from lowest to highest point values the beginner tricks make some sense. SS through the W5s / T5 / T7  is pretty logical. After that, as tricks get harder the correlation between difficulty and point values becomes less apparent. 

13 out of 15 flips are 800-950 points ( double flip is an urban legend ). I am sure the difference in the difficulty of some of these flips is much more than 150 points.

For some reason, double flip is the only trick worth 1,000 pts. This is silly because there is no evidence that the trick has ever been done behind a ski boat. I say make it 2,000 points and see who learns it.

Does the below list look to be in order from easiest to hardest? Maybe. I am not saying it is all wrong.

 

TWL5B= 600

TW7B = 650

TWL7F =800

SL7F = 800

W7F=800

WL9F= 800

W9B =850

 

BFLBB, TWL7F, and W7F are the same points? BFLBB is no longer very exotic but I am not sure I have ever seen a TWL7F.

TWL5B is only 600? How the F do you do a TW7B? TWL7 actually makes more sense to me.

WL9F or WL9B cracks me up. Has anyone really even thought about doing those tricks?

 

The new tricks are listed in red below

[The_MS]

Its a scam. A record gets set at a record capable event. Some how, judges that are better judges than the ones at the event, decide to not approve it. Make no sense 

[Horton]

@The_MS yeah not saying you are wrong but that is another subject.

[BKistler]

Wha? If I had the talent to perform any of those tricks I might venture an opinion. However. ..

[eleeski]

What do we want to see? Raise the points for those tricks. Difficulty is relative and fluid and it is hard to make realistic and durable assessments of which tricks are more difficult than others.

I guess tyhe point values suggest that we want to see flips - which are honestly pretty cool.

But the advanced toes are pretty impressive as well - maybe we need to raise toe points to make sure that we get to see those cool tricks.

At the lower levels, raising toe values will assure that people try toes. I'm seeing too many people do two passes of hands and ignore the toes.

Only old people do line tricks. Up the points and get the kids trying line tricks. They are actually fun to perform and look cool.

To make it fun, add points for things like grabs and double wake tricks. This could especially help beginners.

2000 points for a toe flip!

Eric

[Horton]

[Horton]

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[ETskier]

Agree with @eleeski. Those wake line tricks were difficult and fun to watch. They also could do them with 2 skis back in the day too. Very impressive.  I think BKistler was pretty good at those too. Just watch the old Ricky McCormick videos.  For the future,  can't  wait til somebody does a toe flip.

[BKistler]

@ETskier I had a two-ski W5B and WLBB but that was about as fancy as I got. Thanks for the mention. 

[Horton]

1 minute ago, BKistler said:

two-ski W5B and WLBB

FUN!

[fu_man]

To me, the line tricks with 2 skis seem harder than with one ski.  Much easier to get your bare foot over the rope than your foot with a trick ski attached to it.  2 ski line tricks should not be worth less than one ski.  

[Horton]

@fu_man I think you are sneaking up on the real issue.

Two ski tricks are less relevant today than 72" jump skis and are on par with wooden slalom skis.  A 2 ski WL9F is as preposterous as any trick ever imagined but it has the same points as an average flip that you will see dozens and dozens of times at next year's Nationals.  

The new flips are almost as crazy as WL9F and yet they have about the same point values as a front flip. When skiers first started doing front flips 25 years ago it was the craziest thing anyone had ever seen. Now Boys and Girls 3 are doing it. Not too many kids are going to pull a  FFLSL5F any time soon and for only an extra 150 points why would they care.  

What I get from all this is that the trick list and points need to all be reviewed. Someone is going to cry if we eliminate two ski tricks but if no one has done a specific trick in competition in 20 years or ever, maybe it should be removed. OR maybe perhaps 2 ski tricks should be double points? A modern elite trick skier would likely groan at the suggestion that a 2 ski WL9F is 1600 points but what if it was? I am not seriously advocating for that but I am saying that a total revamp is overdue.

Tricks that were once seen as extreme but are now thought to be not so hard should be worth less and tricks that even the best in the world struggle to do should be worth more.

Hey Joel Poland I will send you a case of your favorite beer for a video of you working in a 2 ski WL9F. ( FYI 2 ski flips are a sure way to break your ankle )

 

[BKistler]

I think Horton has a good point. A big part of the issue is that today’s skis are not designed to be used as a pair.  I cannot imagine doing a WLBB on two Airas but I could stick it with my old narrower prototype-EP O’Briens.

[Horton]

@BKistler and seriously no one really wants to do 2 ski tricks. 

[chrislandy]

I've long thought the values for flips vs spins vs flips with spins has been squiffy and doesn't reflect the difficulty. It also means that the trick runs these days look very similar for each skier (if not exactly the same for mid level trickers) if they want to hit certain points.

It does need an overhaul, I liked the way the wakeboarders did it when putting their original trick lists together and just made a load up which hadn't been achieved yet with most variations of flips/spins/surface/1 wake/2 wake etc.

[fu_man]

I agree with @eleeski.  What do we want to see?  Even though flips are cool, I'm glad there is a limit to them because runs exclusively made of flips would be boring (to me) and would make most other tricks obsolete at the elite level.  Elite trickers are forced to do toes and ski line tricks because the point values dictate what one needs to break records.  

I think there are benefits to re assessing point values for all tricks even the obsolete ones as @Horton said.  For example, the benefit of reassessing point values at the low end may have a significant impact on how a skier could get to 2000 points .  This would have no effect on elite trick scores but it would give skiers more paths to qualify/compete at regionals/nationals.  It would allow for more creativity in building trick runs for lower level trickers. A similar thing happened when they allowed trick 5 to be repeated.  

[Horton]

@fu_man I am not sure this deserves a Panda but I have no idea what you are suggesting.

To me, the point values at the low end are pretty logical. I am sure some things could be tweaked but below 500 points none of the values seem odd to me. 

As for Regionals and Nationals, we have a rankings system so when you change the points around chances few skiers would change percentage groups. 

 

[eleeski]

I'll disagree with the thought that "low end" trick values are logical. Unless you are trying to discourage normal progressions of trick learnng. 

Too many developing skiers ignore the basics and just do flips. Especially in college skiing (collegiate skiing is the growth sector of our sport). 

Adjusting the points (up) for the basics (and toes) will encourage a more comprehensive skill set. A good thing for the sport.

While I'm not a fan of 2 ski tricks (because they hurt!), they are massively underrated relative to their technical difficulty. So we ARE willing to dither values.

Trick point values are very subjective and can feel arbitrary. I work on the high value tricks to optimize my run. Nah, I go for the flash. The WO with a grab at Nationals was entertaining. But it did lead me to a unique WLO variant that helped my score.

Above all, adjust the point values and tricks to keep the fun in the sport.

Eric

[ALPJr]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:10 PM, Horton said:

OR maybe perhaps 2 ski tricks should be double points?

🤙

[ALPJr]

55 minutes ago, eleeski said:

Adjusting the points (up) for the basics (and toes) will encourage a more comprehensive skill set. A good thing for the sport.

👍

[Horton]

@eleeski 

I don't think we necessarily disagree on this. What I'm saying is I think most the tricks below 500 points make sense in relation to each other. Once we get above 500 points the distribution isn't terrible but some of it is outdated.

If the kids are learning flips before they're learning wake 5s then the value of the flips need to come down. 

I think what we're all kind of agreeing on (if you agree with my specifics or not) is that the points should be reviewed.

[Horton]

@ALPJr

what I'm suggesting is a greater spread and more even distribution between the easiest tricks and the hardest tricks. The problem of the list now is that above 500 points many tricks are clumped together with similar values even if they don't have similar difficulty.

If you focus on making the easy tricks worth more, you just making the problem worse. 

Tricks that in the modern era are no longer hard to learn need to become worth less and tricks that are extremely hard to be worth more. 

Now if you want to inflate all toes to encourage skiers to dedicate as much time to toes as hands that is worth considering.

[Horton]

Below is a message between Joel Poland and members of the IWWF committee regarding 2 of the new flips 

I actually landed both of these tricks last year, but didn’t feel like it was worth sending them in as the point values would make them another trick on the list we would never see in competition. But I have hope that we can come together and create a point value that makes them worth while. I also have spoken with a few fellow trickers about the point values of some of the high end flips. It’s no secret that the flip points get a little funky after the 800 point mobe. I think it’s crucial for the growth of our sport that we make some changes in time for next season. I’d love to talk if you get a moment, Joel.

[elr]

Wrap in TO = 200, Reverse TWBB = 330, BFLP = 500.  Yes, there are problems with the beginning trick point values and they should be addressed with appropriate changes to the point table when the flip point values are looked at.

[Octopus_Paxarbolis]

what does this have to do with slalom skiing?