Chad_Scott

@JeffSurdej Please provide us a list or examples of the level 10 guys that are mandated to ski MM instead of their respective age division who have expressed their support for change of rules. Most of those guys ski record events and will only be effected at regional and national events where competition should be a level playing field with no variance in speed @MISkier i agree that most of the middle of the pack skiers are in favor of the changes. Most of those guys ski in a majority of class c events. I am all for zbs scoring in those events So why should the middle of the pack skiers put in mandates that will effect those striving for regional and national titles. The zbs scoring WILL NOT BE RECOGNIZED by IWSF in class L and R events anyway by age divisions. 36 scores will be scored in Open men So why is the middle of the pack so unwilling to compromise. I have spoken to a majority of the skiers that will likely be in the level 10 from Jeff Rodgers to Chet Raley, none of which are in favor of zbs at a national championship. A true competitor and legend like Jeff Rodgers who can still run mid 41@36 does not agree that skiers in MM should be competing at different speeds. Btw Jeff could probably still be a handful in OM. So those in favor will not really be effected if it is approved only for use in class C tournaments. A compromise would probably solve the entire issue.

This is a response from one of the board members with regards to the data provided. This data was provided to the board who has requested this be rescinded as well. The statistics he provided are not empirical data from controlled tests. They represent scores from different skiers at different sites under different conditions. True empirical data would be the same skiers, same site, same driver, same boat, same conditions, etc skiing at different speeds and line lengths (and who aren't intentionally providing for biased data). Otherwise, the 6 sigma answer to whether the scores at speeds and line lengths are equivalent will always be - it depends. It's disappointing to have further data presented as facts when they are in fact, not. The "study" by Dave also doesn't address the new guy coming in to a division who is used to skiing at the higher speed versus the guys who have been there for several years who have adjusted to the slower speed. It also doesn't address the great potential for injury by allowing older skier to ski at Open level speed. The rules have always been geared to the so called level playing field. If the ZBS rule was only to allow skiers to shorten the rope at slower speeds, so what. There is no competitive advantage there. For the rules to enable even the potential for a competitive advantage is in fact, not fair. Statistics can be twisted to whatever the audience is willing to believe. I'm not a believer. This rule has a higher probability of alienating the core base that is now in the sport with zero proof that it will bring in new skiers. Again, there has been zero empirical data to prove that it will achieve adding new skiers to the sport. Just a case of "trust me." We graduated from a one year test for the juniors to shorten the rope below max division speed to this? This is all a lead in to "ability based skiing" where a M7 could be competing against a G1. My opinion is that if it is such a good thing. Make it available for Class C events for a year. See how many people use it and how many people come rushing to join AWSA. Most of the opinions on here in support are not the guys competing at the top of the tier which is effected by this mandatory rule change. Different speeds and different line lengths should not be used to determine a regional or national championship. Record tournaments will not recognize the zbs scoring above your max speed You will be scored in OM if you ski 36 in a class L or R rated tournament. So why force it to be used in record events. Take it out if records and regional and national championships and I think the opposition would be solved. There are arguments for and against. The level 10 was created to FORCE people into MM so all of the best 34 mph skiers would have to ski out of their age division. Because it was not fair the best skiers in their own age division were winning. Needed to make it easier for those not as good to win national titles. AWSA forced the level 10. So why' now force guys who possibly have a 25 yr age difference to ski 36.

Hell just put a 6 buoy handicap like all the other rule.

Which makes my point perfectly this rule has no effect on you either way You can still ski 36 in IM. However the rule will effect podiums at what are supposed to be competitive events which are supposed to be about competition. Others will eventually make the decision so in the end it doesn't matter. just think it takes away from the spirit of competition which is maybe what people want An easier way to win

@MISkier How do you have an open rating only running 5@26 off

@MISkier if your buoy count is nearly the same how do you justify 6 buoy handicap

So you don't think you can run 2@43 off at 34 in a record tournament. So why do you think it's worth 6 buoys.

@Triplett So your opinion that it is 6 buoy differences comes from no personal experience What is your pb and speed

What are your scores @Triplett at 34 vs 36

Couldn't we all. But my point is you are getting a handicap which does not represent your ability based upon your own tournament pb. So the rule just gifted you 2 buoys

@MISkier I get your reasons. You tournament difference does not equate to 6 buoys Using you as an example you would now Beat a guy with 5@32 which obviously you haven't done at 34. Hardly fair

@MISkier what rope lengths do you run at 36/34

@Ralph Lee What line lengths are you talking about?? As I said earlier takes a look at the records books it is not represented as a 6 buoy difference

@ToddL I pulled Nate thru 41 off at 37 mph a week ago

IWSF does not give a six buoy scoring advantage if you elect to ski 36 in a 34 mph division. Of course you can ski but to gain 6 buoys isn't backed by any real data. There is more than just the top few disagree with the 6 buoy advantage I have heard the same from men's 6 skiers I will be willing to bet this rule isn't going to spike membership. And I personally do not find this rule to be fair. If it's about new members then capping the speed based upon age won't effect those you are speaking about. I practice at 36 mph so it won't matter to me. However i am a competitor and I don't see how me running 2@39. Should best a guy that ran 1@41. The world record at 36 is 2.5@43. No one at 34 has run 2.5@45 off. If I elect to ski @36 I don't deserve 6 buoys

With this new rule it has in essence changed all men's slalom speed to 36. So it would take only one to decide to ski 36 to make everyone else ski against a 6 buoy handicap There is a way to allow this for new skiers and juniors. Cap the mandatory speed as set forth by age division and IWSF, who will not recognize this non sense in their scoring system. So add another seperate rankings list and scorebook.

@sunperch I agree with you. However it is only an AWSA rule. L and R tournaments are run under IWSF rules which don't allow a skier to exceed his/her maximum speed. This rule only effects a state regional or national tournament. The big dawg series will not use zbs scoring. Everyone will ski @34 and compete fairly You can contact your regional board members who have voted in favor of this rule. Ironically in the SCR two of the deciding votes are trick skiers how have never been on the end of the rope at 39 or 41 off and do not know the difference between different speeds and rope lengths. It really will not effect me I just do not think that if I run a longer line at any speed I should beat out a guy that is skiing his maximum designated speed on a shorter line length Most of the opinions I have seen via email are from board members who don't compete We should just give everyone a metal and stay home. The reason the big dawg has been so successful is because of the competition and the people involved. Give younger skiers a series which actually consist of competition. Head to head formats do away with boring ratings tournaments Show up a badals pro am. Watch how much people of all ages enjoy competing in the head to head events. Rules rules rules forever changing do not help the sport will not bring people flocking to us

@GK you are right depending on the rope length I do not know of any big dawg skiers that gained 6 buoys upon dropping from 36-34 mph Take the big dawg for example. No former professional have dominated in the series just because they slowed to 34. 39 and 41 are still short no matter the speed @GK How do you perceive this will grow the sport and send people flocking to tournaments. And what information do you have to support the theory that this is the answer Honestly the issue is attracting new skiers. How does a rule which changes the competitive fairness at the other levels going to attract them.

And for the guys that have transitioned to 34 mph for several years and now having to compete against a guy who is skiing 36 mph with a six buoy advantage. @Triplett where did the data come from to provide a 6 buoy handicap. Competition at a regional or national level is all about everyone having the same conditions Each skier should ski the same speed and the same rope length to determine a winner. No reason for a handicap at a national level tournament. There is no doubt it is easier for some to ski 36 than others. That certainly does not make the playing field level with a six buoy advantage. Part of the reason the speeds we're lowered was because they didn't want a 50 ye old skiing at 36. There is no way one can say it is not a competitive advantage to have a six buoy handicap based on no real data. 38 is easier than 39 at any speed. 39 is short 41 is short. So why should I be able to win with a longer rope and more room to get around the buoy. Just require everyone to go 36. And see how that works for the membership. Because in essence that is what it is coming down to. Everyone maximum speed is 36 no matter the age. Are we now going to discriminate if a women wants to go 36 for another 6 buoys.

@Triplett Giving the scenario I discussed you think the rule is fair and promotes a level playing field for regional and national tournaments?

Guys I think the ZBS scoring is s great idea for younger and new skiers in the sport However allowing a skier to gain a six buoy advantage by skiing faster is not fair. I am a 34 mph tournament skier. I often ski at 36 with my son just to keep things interesting. I can daily run 38 at 36 mph. Often getting 2 or 3 @ 39 off. Let's make an example. This year I am skiing at the regionals and I am the last skier in the division. The leading score is 3 1/2 @39 off at 34 mph. Without notice I decide to ski 36. Turn 4@38 and win. Is this the true spirit of competition. How do you explain to someone watching what just happened Or I run 3 1/2@38. We tie. There's a runoff. My competitor goes off the dock cold at 38 off I go off at 35 off. This is really what people think is good for the sport. This is not very well thought out and should be rescinded or amended to disallow the ability to ski above your speed as set forth by your age

@TravisNW I don't keep up with the boys 3 girls 2/3 that you spoke of. You also said that the same people keep winning all the way up the age divisions. I'm curious from mens 3-6 who has won the slalom events over and over in any of these age based division. The last person I recall dominating in men's 3 was chuck Forrest and again that was back in the days when there were 180 people in the division. With the ability based grouping back in the day when my son was in boys 2 . The men's 3 and 4 group would have likely been skiing against a 14 yr old who was running into 39 off at 34 mph . In ability based groupings cooper Tate would have been skiing against the old men as well if we are truly changing the divisions to ability based. I just do not see how devalueing the age based division at the national championship will bring new skiers into our sport. I can tell you for kids competing in the sport they want to ski against other kids their age. Most of them spend too much time skiing with adults. The key is making the sport attractive to children who are competing every day in other organized sports Going to tournaments and waiting around all day to ski two or three times. likely against no one their age, is not attractive to kids. We have to make tournaments more attractive to the young

so with Nate Smith dominating the way he has in Open. Should we not make him ski in another division so others wil have chance to medal at nationals. I understand the need to encourange new members to join into tournament skiing But diluting the skiing in the age division is not going to bring in new members. It will just devalue the honor of being a National champion Believe me the national titles are not easy to win. My last year in men's 2, I was beaten out by an open skier who dropped down to men's 2. I did not cry and quit, I kept skiing and working to be a better skier. I mean it is still the national championship where the best skiers in the country compete to be national champions. Why does anyone think the answer is making it easier for everyone to win a title. I agree with some of the concepts discussed I think we should go back to a set score to achieve an invite to nationals. I remember chasing an ep score all over the place trying to just qualify for nationals Get back to manufacturers providing an ep deal on equipment and honor those who have accomplished that feat. The ranking list changes and some don't know they qualify till it is too late to plan. Give skiers a known mark to achieve to qualify for regionals and nationals. I also like the idea of allowing a judged practice score or class c score to qualify skiers for a state and or regional championships . Increase participation at these events is certainly good for the sport. I am all for making these tournaments easily accessible to more people. Exclude the top three guys in each age division from skiing for placement or skiing at all at regionals so others can have their chance at a podium and new people have the opportunity to place in the top 5 earning a bid to the nationals championship However I think it is important to maintain the integrity of the national championships without diluting events into participation awards. Maybe the NFL should make a new league for the patriots so @OB1 falcons can win the Super Bowl. Maybe there is another league for Brady to play in. I'm a cowboys fan and I'm sure tired of everyone else winning the Super Bowl. Let's move some teams out of the league

You know it seems like we are headed toward give everyone a trophy no matter the ability. Nationals is where the best of the best ski and are supposed to compete. . When I was in men's 2 I can remember watching the men's 3 event with over 100 skiers . Watching chuck Forrest dominate year in and year out it was one of the most prestigious titles to be had . I was top seed for most of my men's 3 career. I worked my ass off to win the title. It only took me every year and finally happened my last year in men's 3. I see no reason for an MM division I think we should ski in our age based division. I think if we are going to have an MM division it should be at another speed other than 34 Nationals should be about competition. If someone can win the event on his/ he'd first pass then they should certainly not be skiing in age based division. There is no one in men's 3/4/5/6 that can win on the first pass. MM has taken the prestige of the titles that once were when skiing was at its height. I don't see how making the age divisions a second tier event is going to grow the sport. If that's the case give everyone an metal whether they deserve it or not. I mean with some of the new rules we are killing the competitive side of skiing. The zero based scoring makes no sense to me either. If Jeff Rodgers skis before me and runs 2@41 at 34 mph in MM. I can elect to go 36 and run 2 1/2@39 at 36 to win the event. Crazy to me.

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