Chad_Scott

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@Horton you need to get out of California at Lyman's record. Brian wanted and skied behind the carbon pro @Jody_Seal at some point we can utilize common sense regardless of what the AWSA defines these skiers as. You along with most tournament organizers know which skiers can benefit from using his/ her own boat. So if a site can get by with a contractual obligation to a manufacturer then a skier should be able to as well. It can't be one way and not the other You can now have four rounds I am fine with one boat each round and do away with closed events and skiers choosing boats. Short of that if a manufacturer is allowed to dictate at an AWSA sanctioned event (non cash prize) then we should allow skiers under contract to ski their boats

With Regards to Open skiers choosing their own boats There are open skiers who have the opportunity to make money at record tournaments should a record be set behind their sponsored boats. That should be reason enough to allow them to ski behind their own boats. There is no reason for most of the open skiers to ski in record tournaments other than to make a little extra money. @Jody_Seal I would let you ski behind whatever boat you want at our tournaments. Why do we allow trick skiers to chose their own boat. Personally I think it is a benefit to a local record tournament to have the likes of Nate Smith Will Asher Parrish or any other Open rated skiers in attendance. I know having two children who came up skiing having the opportunity to interact personally with the open skiers meant a lot to them as junior in our sport. I have no problems accommodating them even though we say there is no distinction between pros and amateur Most sites that host record tournaments want the open skiers at their sites and what site doesn't hope one of them sets a record. At the same time why does AWSA allow closed tournaments which prohibit manufacturers from having their boats on site and used in the tournament. Why would we allow a manufacturer to decide for skiers which boats will be used at an AWSA sanctioned event . To me it doesn't seem much different than allowing a skier to chose a boat or allowing a manufacturer to chose for you. If we are not going to accommodate skiers then why do we accommodate manufacturers. Short of a manufacture offering a cash prize for an event such as Masters Malibu Open or the big dawg series. All manufacturers should to be allowed and utilized at any tournament event sanctioned by AWSA

It's a response LXR. Not the TXI. Smaller price point boat

@MillerTime38 I think you may have taken some of the words out of the intended context. As @MISkier said it is important to get a feel for the skier in the first few passes so you understand the skiers technique and when as a driver to anticipate the load from the skier While you say you give every skier the same pull. That would be impossible. There are no two skiers that turn and load the boat in the same way. Just because a driver is familiar with the skier doesn't necessarily put them at an advantage. To me it is about timing with who ever a driver is pulling. It's important to know what's going on from the pylon to be able to provide a good pull with a good boat path You can't just aim for the center of the course and not have a feel for what is going on behind you If that is the case the only thing you will struggle with is keeping the boat center. It will be a fight between you and the guy or gal on the back of the line

@Wish I am not involved in the process so I can't answer #3. However #4 is probably a little easier. All boat path videos from record tournaments is supposed to be submitted to AWSA With that being said there is no judicious process for AWSA to review videos or boat paths. They are all subject to review by AWSA and the drivers committee Because of the requirements to submit video from record tournaments I don't think any additional process to review video is required

It's winter time JoJo what else are we to do. Been raining in Louisiana for 3 days. I'm ready for 2017 ski season as well . As Ham Wallace would say I hate winter. @Horton for those who may not understand what we are talking about, put them in the boat for this first time and ask them to pull you thru the course. It makes for a great ride. Lol. I doubt anyone outside of NASCAR would completely understand the nuisance of driving a car at 200 mph this thread started because a baller was looking for someone to provide some insight for improving driving skills to those already involved in the sport and looking for tips from others Hopefully my comments as well as other sr drivers like @LLUSA and @Jody_Seal and many other gave some good information on what it takes to provide a good ski ride.

I agree with Horton the tolerances are in place for human eerror or. They are not in place for the better drivers to manipulate I challenge anyone to not need some tolerances to pull some of the bigger skiers without them. It is easy to get hit hard and need The tolerances. It is partially the reason we moved to speed control Although @klindy said for the tc it is black and white. It is in tolerance or not. I can assure you that the TC and chief judges at most events would not approve of me or any other driver using the 20cm tolerance right and left throughout the course to enhance skier performance. We are all rated drivers and know that we are to drive as close to center as possible.

@klindy That's why you TC guys get the big bucks. I am just providing my experiences and opinions as a driver. You are probably best suited to describe what is looked for when looking for pattern driving and or the process of disapproving records As @LLUSA said each skier requires different input from the driver. I believe most good drivers are shooting for a straight boat path and using the tolerances for instances when you have a situation as you described with boats, different skiers ability etc.

For the discussion of drivers and pattern driving. My understanding that it is similar to what @MISkier described. Driving from boat guide to boat guide with the intent of making the course narrower in favor of the skier. I know one of the things that they look for when approving or disapproving records is the existence of a driver ping ponging down the lake to give the skier an advantage. As said in the rule. The tolerance is there for human error. Not meant to be aimed for by a driver to aid the skier. At some point common sense has to be applied. I agree with @MISkier its pretty obvious to identify the pattern driving when you see it

My understanding of pattern driving is when a driver purposefully drives in a manner to utilize the tolerances. Usually in a snaking manner which is deemed to be to the advantage of the skier. The 20 cm is to allow for human error and not to be aimed for as a driver Rule 1.12: There are those that do not, or choose not to understand Rule 1.12. This rule states....“In any activity involving the performance of an official where a tolerance is involved, it is the official’s responsibility to be as close as possible to the actual specification. All tolerances are to allow for human error and the use of tolerances by officials to improve skier performance will not be tolerated.” Boat Judges are the “Captains” of the Boat” and need to make sure that times are not being manipulated to enhance performances. Scorers may notice a pattern developing and can bring it to the attention of the Chief Driver or Chief Judge. Chief Drivers and Chief Judges need to make sure that all officials understand that abuse of the rules will not be tolerated. Skiers who perform exceptionally well under false conditions will certainly be disenchanted when they ski within the rules.

I drive based on what I feel from the seat with the skier. Both Nate and Cp ski differently. Cp runs an earlier line with a more aggressive turning style. Vs Nate who runs a little later line and turns differently than CP. also lefty vs a righty. I drive on feel and always try to stay ahead. Nate runs a later line so my movements with him are not as quick as they would be with a big skier like Cp who runs an earlier line When.Cp get ready to turn 1/3/5 u better be moving away and ready for the load. When Freddie winter drops his bomb turn at 2/4/ u better be moving or u will be chasing him. I think all skiers ski a little different and require different movements with the boat at different times to maintain a record tolerance boat path. When I pull up to the dock one of the first things I do is look to see what foot forward the skier is. For the same reasons. Anticipation will be different based up what foot forward a skier is.

@TravisNW the reason you have to stay ahead of the skier is to maintain a straight boat path. If you are making your adjustments after they have finished the turn and hooked up to the line then chances are that you and the skier are now going in the same direction. So you are now chasing the skier behind you. Most skiers at any level need a post to lean on to gain the cross course direction they are seeking. If you are reacting and chasing the skier then you are not providing a post to swing from and probably adversely effecting the skiers cross course speed. You are now moving the same direction and effecting the skiers ability to swing I am also willing to say that when a driver is reactive the boat path is suffering. Because you arecwaiting for the skier to load before reacting. Once the load comes on at the end of the skiers turn a driver who is waiting a reacting will see the back of the boat move towards the skiers direction. Then the chase is on. Best way to see effects of driving is to put a camera at the end of the lake No better training tool

@rico I am pretty sure you don't actually give every skier the same pull. You may be straight as a driver. But I would say it is not possible to give a 200 lb skier the same pull as a 120lb skier. Or a skier that turns like hell on 1/3/5 vs a skier that turns like hell and loads hard a 2/4/6. No two skiers ski the same. So it's not possible to drive all skiers the same. It's all about feeling what's going on behind you. If I wait late and let cp hit me out of the turn at 1/3/5 i can assure you that my path will suffer. If i am aggressive and move away with anticipation for the load CP can generate then the path will not suffer. Nate does not turn and load as hard so he doesn't need a driver that anticipates as quickly So with that being said I am pretty sure no two skiers ever get the same pull in my opinion. It does help to study and watch the skiers. Know if they are left foot forward or right foot forward. Knowing what kinda of line they run. Early line vs a later line. All of these factors dictate your actions on the wheel. Just my .02 cents

@OB1 I have to disagree. I think most drivers want to give you the best pull possible I can tell you from my perspective. I think every skier wants something a little different If you want to be a good driver you have to take feedback from the skiers. For example I can tell you that CP and Nate do not want the same type of pull. CP wants the boat moving away from him at the buoy very quickly. Nate wants it a little less aggressive and slower. The each run a different line. So you need to know who you are driving it's important to have a feel for what is going on behind you when you are at the wheel Talking with these guys is crucial to being a good driver. I have called for my own re rides in a tournament. I wrong sided Nate at 41 off and asked for the CJ to look at it. It was terrible. So Nate got a re ride. I don't think drivers are ever perfect for all 6 buoys. It's like skiing. Takes practice and seat time.

I think pulling good jumpers is challenging. I try to take my same driving philosophy into driving jump. I just try to stay a touch ahead of the skier when they are making their turns. I have had some good jump drivers like Scott greenwood and Jody seal provide great feedback to me about driving jump With any driving you just need feedback to work on your skills. Feedback from skiers, other drivers and don't be afraid to look at yourself on the end course. It certainly does not lie

Love driving tube. St driver. Your up

Yes I drive trick and jump I am a SR 3 event driver in all 3

Top is 39 off for Regina world record pass (2017 Malibu) Bottom is 41 off for Nates world record pass. (CC)

intentional weaving is pretty easy to spot with a naked eye. The guys that plot the end course spend hours doing so. And it is plotted in both directions. The record pass and the previous pass must be plotted to approve a record.

@LeonL is correct. However I used suggested because several world records have been approved by the IWSF council without the line bring present on the windshield . All that said I think it definitely would help to determine centerline deviation.

Not necessarily Nate is much stronger than people think. He actually bends several handles a year. He pulls and most of the time works in the right place But he can get ahold of you. People misjudge how much Nate loads the boat. It just is mostly in the right place.

I agree with Horton. The driving in the video above is world class. The boat can move and pivot while the pylon stays center. Do not focus on the bow or rear of the boat As you look at the video mark a spot on the windshield and you will see that the pylon in the video moves very little

I have video which I sent to @ Horton of pulling Nate at 41off as well which he may post. What I would describe as pattern driving would be when the boat is obviously moving from side to side with the skier. Ping pong down the lake boat guide to boat guide making the slalom course narrow to benefit the skier I have been fortunate enough to have the opportunity to drive most of the open men's skiers and rather than giving them a few inches at the buoy most of them would rather just finish the turn with a tight line so they can do what they do.

1. The boats are actually suggested to have a centerline taped on the windshield for a record tournament. However with the walk thru windshield it makes it a little easier to locate the center and pylon location 2. I am no expert on what the committee is looking for. I have often heard them use the term "pattern driving" to benefit the skier. There are tolerances for boat movement and these tolerances are in place when an driver is pulled off the center line. The tolerances are not meant to be aimed for with an intentional weave done to benefit the skier So in my opinion a cheating driver is a driver who drives with an intentional weave to benefit or increase a skier or group of skiers scores I am told a record which is within tolerance can be denied if the manner of driving is done intentionally to benefit the skier. I guess that goes back to the pattern driving reference. 4. As for the process I do not know and I am not part of any committee within USA Waterski. My guess is a determination that pattern driving was evident and occured during the event I am of the understanding that in this case it was the IWSF who decided to pull the scores from the event off of the world standings list. The letter from AWSA indicates that the board will decide what to do with the rest of the scores during the meeting in January as of now the scores have been Dow graded from class L or R to class E I do not know the process which allows the iwsf to pull the scores from the world standings list