Survey: Injuries and Bindings

[h2oskier_sd]

After suffering a ruptered achilles myself and reading about other well known ankle and tendon injuries, I want to see if there is a correlation to type of binding used and rate of injury. If you or someone you know has had a lower leg injury in the past 2 years please list : 1. Type of Injury , 2. Description of fall (out the front in the turn, or out the front @ wakes..), 3. Type of Binding

  I know that this info will help many people, including myself. Injuries stink and unfortunately are a part of any high risk sport, but there is such a thing as reducing this risk with proven equipment that works.

 

[Hayden]

Ruptured achilles, OTF, HO Approach, been skiing on Goode powershells the last 2 years since injury with no problems

[h2oskier_sd]

I am seriously considering those bindings. Do u have many maintenence issues with them, and how many releases have you had on them?

[skidawg]

Yes there is maintainence, dual lock has to be replaced several times a year, hinge bolts wear out after a few yrs, the old buckles required replacing occassionally, new o

buckles seem mo betta!

[skidawg]

Not slamming them, I have been on the same pr for yrs

[Ed_Obermeier]

Here we go again.  Who is the end user wanting the information and what are the true intensions for use of this information?  Are we feeding stats to some law firm who is looking for basis to sue someone or are the OP's intentions truly pure?  How to know? 

I would like to assume that magpie's intentions are pure but we've seen this before on several other skier message boards and this subject specifically has been pushed quite a bit in the past year especially.  New and anonymous poster to the board asking for very specific information about a specific item (bindings in this case) the results of which are to be used who really knows how.  This has been getting bounced around pretty frequently on several of these message boards of late and we really don't know who is behind collecting all of this info and how they ultimately intend to use it.  Maybe no one, maybe not? Although it's fairly well proven that random internet polls don't carrry much weight, over time with enough responses collected from enough different sources who knows what a court will and won't allow as evidence. 

Think before you start feeding info to some unknown entity that can be used against a company who supports the sport.  I mean no personal afront to magpie (whoever you really are), no I really don't have a dog in this fight, and no I'm not paranoid.  Just acting as a cautious member of an increasingly litigious society.  Now where did I leave that aluminum foil hat liner...?

Ed

[Horton]

I have a longer post coming later but in Magpie's defense.... I see that his IP puts him in San Diego. Unless he is with a law firm I am going to assume that the post is not a ruse.

But thanks Ed for throwing the flag. I agree that this subject has been tossed around a lot across the InterTubes.

[Than_Bogan]

As others have noted, it's extremely challenging to collect enough data and to then intrepret it correctly to make a statistically valid conclusion.

So in lieu of that, I can offer only my personal theories:  In my opinion, the safest system available is the Fogman.  This uses a pin on each end, which means it can release in every direction except through the ski (which of course is impossible for any binding -- stupid physics!).  This system also makes it impossible to have a very dangerous one-foot release.  IF it is set correctly and well-maintained, I believe it offers the best overall safety characteristics.

Of course, that's not what I use! :)  I tried those for one season and hard shell just aren't for me.  My consistency was horrible with them, even though they would show brief flashes of being amazing.

I use what I believe is the next safest option: Plain old rubber boots (D3's) that are set snug but NOT tight.  In particular, I can keep them on for a long time without experiencing any discomfort.  These release pretty easily, but there are certain directions that they cannot release, and theoretically one foot can release while the other is still in the ski, exposing the knee to extreme torque.

I also think the Strada release concept is sound, but early reports hint that you have to be careful about how you set the laces.  Because of that I personally would still rate rubber as just a hair safer than Strada.

Personally, I would never rely on velcro (or similar) as my release mechanism.  I do not believe it is consistent enough (i.e. force required to release is different each time you connect it and trends downward with multiple releases), and the amount of force required to release varies tremendously depending on direction as well.

Finally, it's worth restating the obvious:  Slalom skiing is inherently unsafe.  We can only discuss safer, not safe.

[HO 410]

The last time a survey-monkey poll was rolled out, the main conclusion you could pull out was Out the Front and Non-release is bad. The data collection did not allow for further statistical analysis beyond that without extremely tedious data entry. There was also the fact that personal information was required that made it inappropriate for anyone other than the poller to look at the raw data.

 

When it come to water-ski bindings, I believe that anecdotal evidence is good enough. In that vein, the one type of boot I would avoid would be front-lace rubber such as Approaches, Drafts, etc...

[dleenhouts]

When does skier's ability get factored into these things? I'm with Ed - this is like looking at nothing more than the type of oil used in engines of cars involved in accidents. Sure, the intentions might not be evil, but there is so much more to the story.

[lakeo]

I've asked before and we saw lots of it at the Pro-am this past weekend. What's with the hardshell front rubber rear like coble, the lapoints or even asher (RTP) ride it would seem to be the most apt to allow the one foot in one foot out situation we all fear. If they want the off side control of the hardshell front why not also go with hard shell rear on a single plate. I guess what I'm really saying is would some one ask Lapoints, Coble, Raley, etc etc why they don't prefer Fogman which do seem the safest if you like hardshell.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Than Bogan wrote "...I use what I believe is the next safest option: Plain old rubber boots (D3's) that are set snug but NOT tight.  In particular, I can keep them on for a long time without experiencing any discomfort.  These release pretty easily...

...Personally, I would never rely on velcro (or similar) as my release mechanism.  I do not believe it is consistent enough (i.e. force required to release is different each time you connect it and trends downward with multiple releases), and the amount of force required to release varies tremendously depending on direction as well.

Finally, it's worth restating the obvious:  Slalom skiing is inherently unsafe.  We can only discuss safer, not safe."

I couldn't have stated it better Than and I'm 100% in agreement with your statements.  I also use D3's, love 'em, wouldn't trade them even across for new hardshells and velcro even though they're 5 - 6 years old now.  Of course YMMV.

Ed

[ForrestGump]

lakeo, You're talking about the Reflex type front with a silveretta release along with a rubber rear. A lot of people consider that to be the safest release out there. When the rear foot comes out of the rubber binding, there is leverage to trip the Silveretta release holding the front binding in place.  Especially in an out the front type crash. 

Binding injury history is a double edged sword. It's too easy to take the data out of context. Without knowing market share, revision(ie, version of bindings......for instance FM and Goode have both had different versions of their bindings over the last 5 or 6 years.), ability of skier, line length at injury, release tension, amount of velcro/type of velcro, skier weight, how tight the user clamps them, etc then data can be skewed.  For instance, I have taken a LOT of hard falls in the last two weeks while trying a new line length.  Most have been from hitting the buoys.  So I have significantly increased my chances of injury over how I would normally ski. So if I injure myself, is that an inherent design shortcoming in my binding? Or is it that I put myself in that position due to the line length and skiing position I'm at. 

[RichardDoane]

You'd be hard pressed to find a binding type/style that hasn't been involved in some type of crash damage to the user.  There's a reason that the "could cause injury..." is strenciled right on most skis/bindings sold today.  If you don't want to get hurt, stay on the dock.

[JackQ]

I have been skiing a long time (my 1st Nationals was in 1980) and I maybe a luddite but, I think rubber binders are the safest.  Sooner or later someone well come up with a better system that is safer, but I do not think any of the hard-shell systems or a safe as the old standby.  In the NE area, out of the tournament skiers, we have had about 6 serious injuries in the last couple of years; broken leg/ankle, torn Achilles tendon and knee injuries.  It appears that less than half of the skiers are on hard-shells but all (yes everyone) of the serious injuries occurred on hard-shells.  In the past years there were serious injuries with rubber binders but not at the rate I see them now with hard-shell binders.  My theory is most of the binding system do not release well for OTF and crushing forward situations. When you crush forward into the ski, and the binding does not release your ankle, leg or knee adsorbs all the force.  The initial flexibility of a rubber binder may be a factor in reducing risk in these situations.

[Than_Bogan]

luddites rule! :-)

[RichardDoane]

The shorter the line, the more often you see skiers in hardshell-type bindings.  The shorter the line, the more impressive the crash. The more impressive the crash, the bigger the chance of injury ... my .02

[h2oskier_sd]

Ed, I am a 32-35 off skier whom has been skiing tournaments for over 15 years, I am in no way trying to bring some litigation against you or anyone else. I am simply trying to protect my injury the next time I ski, which wont be for awhile anyway. I have been around the block once or twice so I know all the obvious arguments about its a dangerous sport, any joe blow who dosent know what he's doing can screw up any setup to make it dangerous. I am simply trying to find the best solution to my problem. What is the best way to do that? Get other input from as many possible sources in order to make an informed decision. Isint that what you do when you come to the inner tubes? That is exactly what makes this forum so fantastic, I dont have to learn the hard way, or try to figure it out through trial and error. Obviously there is no binding that is 100% injury proof, and all brands have had their share of injuries. Everyone has their opinion and I just want to hear what that is...

410, I agree with you on the front lace type, and as far as rubber dont like em anyway. JackQ, what I dont like about them is one foot in and one comes out, had that happend to me once with tragic results. Than, u seem to be on the same page, I like your thinking regarding the fogman, and I too never liked the idea of velcro yet many people have great results.

[HO 410]

Magpie, what bindings were you using when you got hurt?

[Not_The_Pug]

I aggree with Richard, any binding can cause an injury.  My worse ankle injury happened in KD rubber bindings.  Back foot came out, front foot didn't as I twisted.  Ankle will never be the same and that was about 15 years ago.  Find the most comfortable, safest pair for your use.

 Kevin

[Marco]

Magpie- I feel your pain.  I ruptured my achilles after hitting a buoy last September, and the rehab was (is) a long road.  My injury had nothing to do with my bindings as far as I can tell- the ski went airborn and when it reset the compression against the ski blew my achilles.  I doubt any binding would have released under those circumstances.  I started a thread  here similar to yours this spring titled Injury and Binding Choice .http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1646&page=3#Item_20 

Check it out, you might find some useful information in that thread.  One thing that sticks in my mind is Scot Jones comment that a heel based release system, such as a Reflex, is the best type of binding for an injured achilles.  That is what I was on when I got hurt, but it was a situation that no binding type would have prevented.  I am still on a Reflex today.

Good luck with your recovery!

[chris carter]

This is an evolving issue that is good to discuss so we can continue to get better in our sport. I have one high end daughter skiing a Reflex front and RTP (mid 38 off), another in double Wileys (mid 35 off at 32 mph), one on Powershell and RTP (been injured for a year with ACL) and I am on highly modified Wileys (mid 35 off).....so we are a good test bed, (certainly not on purpose) with the variety we have in the ski locker.

• If you are RTP or loose rear rubber I think the Reflex has the longest time to update release mechanisms as they started on trick skis where it is a single foot application
• 3 friends of mine have gotten hurt on front lace up designs that had a heel cup for no heel lift and got seriously got hurt or broke something.
• I haver had pre releases with a single velcro front and RTP,........ Velcro is likely best for double Powershells on one plate IMHO.

 

I have gone to more supple rubber, with low cut stiffeners about ankle high and a hard formed custom orthotic for support and additional edge control. It is not as good as really tight rubber or hard shells but it is amazing how your body adapts to something just like another ski. For me it actually gives a little forgiveness. Pulling your ski off when you are finished skiing is easy with my set up, yet I have some stiffnes side to side. Some are saying better balance on your ski is the new trend vs high and tight bindings which might have some merit for those that are balanced while skiing, (unfortunately not me)

 Also the new T Factor boot has a supple rear vented type heel to allow OTF situations and a bungee lace up to let it flex. If I were to try again, might go that route for me. 2 of my 3 daughters grew up on hard shells and will stay that way but are RTP which complicates the problem. Reflex for one, and looking for the other.

Yes Ed, litigious awarenss is good and yet this discussion is also healthy, at least it is for me.

 

thanks to all for your thoughts. 

 

[MrJones]

Powershells are okay, but definitely err on the side of not enough vs. too much dual lock. I did not and broke my ankle in May to pay for it. As a general rule I am against the "both in" mechanisms. My problem typically is the OTF fall though, so I am biased. There is no completely safe system.  

I am on Dbl Strada's now and am happy with it. The other option I could see trying would be Reflex front with my Strada rear.

[ForrestGump]

I had thought about trying a reflex front along with my strada rear, too.

[MattP]

Scot- in the rare chance you release from both do your RS-1's float with the plate?

[MrJones]

Just wanted to add that I too have my Strada's on a G10 plate with dual lock. I have the Strada's as my primary release. I do feel like I have two release mechanisms now which in theory might offer some increased protection. (I believe the Strada would be good for my classis OTF, with the dual lock possibly releasing better in a twisting type fall... Yes, pure speculation)

 I also wondered about the floatation deal but have not tested it. Truth is a new set of bindings would be cheap compared to what I spent on the ankle this summer.

 

[JAS]

Over many years of skiing the only ankle injury I have sustained (avulsion fracture) was wearing a prettly loose front rubber w/ RTP. My opinion is that with rubber, in a twisting fall your front foot can get hung up half in/half out, and the release force very high or very SLOW.

I switched to front Powershell w/RTP, maybe just my style or size, I had 5 premature releases at the wake and remember everyone of them. Since I have switched to Reflex front and Radar adjustable RTP. Best combo for me so far. No premature releases and when I have come out it has been "Snap!" and I'm loose. Just my experiences, so far so good.

[h2oskier_sd]

wow great discussion and info from ya all ( southern drawl ) I thank any and all information as I still am giong to be very careful after my year long recovery, no matter what binding I will use. I am in no way trying to bad mouth any bindings just want others' input and insight into what it is I may be skiing in the rest of my career. One thing most people dont think about till its too late, and once you rupture an achilles I have to be very careful not to do it again, or game over. Forget about skiing or walking normal for that matter.

[lpskier]

If you are going to attach a Fogman system to your ski using  G-10 plate, I would not use Dual-Loc. Use two sided body molding tape. No screws and no lost plate. For whatever it is worth, I have eight full seasons in Fogman bindings and could not be more satisfied, both from a performance and safety perspective. They are also warm and comfortable.

[MrJones]

magpie,

'round these parts it's one word. Ya'll! :)

[h2odawg79]

It's "Y'all" in Nashville, y'all! And we say "Chipoddle" -not "Chipote-Lay"... We have "Hose pipes", we ain't "about" to do anything, but we're "fixin' " to! and we won't invite ya over to BBQ on Sunday, 'cause we're "Grillin' out" instead... 

[h2oskier_sd]

Rightous Dawg, as we say in cali

[h2oskier_sd]

I guess as the saying goes: There's more than one way to ski a cat applies here. All suggestions are very thought provoking and I will have to give some more thought to. One question, what is a G-10 plate? I assume its a goode.

[ForrestGump]

Mike Erb(teammalibu) machines G-10 plates also. Very reasonable in comparison to Goode's.

[skidawg]

Teammalibu is the plate master, save ur bucks and get one custom from mike

[Bdecker]

I've got a full season on FM Quattro's (single plate) and have found them to be exceptionally reliable.  This is after multiple ankle injuries from using too much dual lock as well as lace up rubbers.  A good friend was taking some video of me when I went "out the front" last week.  In slow motion you can see the binding release when the torque of my body going over the tip increased (beyond the point of no return), not on the second or third spin through the "washing machine" like my previous system.  Because the mechanical release is well supported by fixed points in normal skiing, you can set it low enough to validate release on dry land without risk of pre-release.  Boots and liners are super comfortable as well.

[35 in the bag]

>>>>>>>>To Chris Carter<<<<<<<<<

What type/kind/brand of "hard custom orthotic" are you using and where/how are they available. Do you "afix" it to the binding some how?

Thanks,

John Miller

[Jody_Seal]

Just recieved a new Radar Strada binding From H2-Ozmossis to replace the orginal series RS-1 that I bought 3 years ago, Really can not tell the difference between the two other than the material on the back of the shell is thinner. As my liner was still in pretty good shape I am using it for the rest of the season as it conforms to my foot. another thumbs up for the Radar boot, I have come out of it numerous times including one (every 10 year) mega yard sale that happened  two years ago during tow boat tests at Jacks, That one even broke the ski in half between the feet and I still came out of both boots.

Would also like to know about a hard orthotic. The new Strada came with a orthotic type insert. 

[RichardDoane]

jody - green Superfeet, $32. on Amazon.com

[Jody_Seal]

Thanks Richard, will look into it.

Skied on the new Strada binding yesterday afternoon other than it feels firmer, did not have any issues and it made the ski feel more responsive over the RS-1 binding.

[Roger]

I've had two injuries:

1) Offside stall at the turn, Obrien Contacts, Torn calf muscle (rear foot).

2) Onside out the front just off ball, Wileys, broken middle toe (front foot).

Changed to RS-1 binding system 3.5 years ago, no new injuries to report.

[gates n 1]

 Okay....here's my two cents worth.... Injury....shattered tib/fib (2 plates,17 screws). Binding....2010 Enzo's. Bones snapped virtually level with top of boot. Fall happened in a turn, and because of the uniqueness of the fall, the only thing i can say unequivically is that the damage would have been greatly reduced (due to the satisfying of physics) if I'd had my old D3's on the ski.

[gates n 1]

There may not be any useful conclusions to be drawn regarding type of binding vs. rate of injury, but I'll bet some factual assesments could be made regarding type of bindings vs. severity of injury in comparable falls. It seems likely that as one binding system protects against "X" fall types, it would provide less protection in "Y" fall types, when compared to a different type of binding system. 

[chris carter]

the hard orthotic is key to it all. mine are custom from a Physical therapist that specializes in runners orthotics. but expensive. you also may consider an off the shelf, the power step is one that is close and has good arch support. super feet in another but is less foot forming. i had wileys build the boot up around these orthotics and it is another world skiing.

[davemac]

Has anyone else tried the above mentioned "Powerstep" insoles?   I noticed that they offer a "regular" and a "Pinacle" version...not sure if one if more suitable for a <Strada>  boot application.

[jwr]

Mike Murdock makes custom orthodics for waterskis.  I have a pair in my jump binders.  Love them.  They are custome made and not cheap, but are very nice.  Makes them for slalom and I believe trick also.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Dave, I use Powerstep insoles in all of my shoes but never tried them in ski bindings.  I assume they're the regular ones.  If I buy a new pair of shoes I buy new Powersteps to go in them.  They definitely help a bunch in shoes, no experience in bindings but don't know why they wouldn't work.

Ed

[danbirch]

Ed Obermeier Sep 22nd 2010 Wrote:

 

"Here we go again. Who is the end user wanting the information and what are the true intensions for use of this information? Are we feeding stats to some law firm who is looking for basis to sue someone or are the OP's intentions truly pure? How to know?

 

I would like to assume that magpie's intentions are pure but we've seen this before on several other skier message boards and this subject specifically has been pushed quite a bit in the past year especially. New and anonymous poster to the board asking for very specific information about a specific item (bindings in this case) the results of which are to be used who really knows how. This has been getting bounced around pretty frequently on several of these message boards of late and we really don't know who is behind collecting all of this info and how they ultimately intend to use it. Maybe no one, maybe not? Although it's fairly well proven that random internet polls don't carrry much weight, over time with enough responses collected from enough different sources who knows what a court will and won't allow as evidence.

 

Think before you start feeding info to some unknown entity that can be used against a company who supports the sport. I mean no personal afront to magpie (whoever you really are), no I really don't have a dog in this fight, and no I'm not paranoid. Just acting as a cautious member of an increasingly litigious society. Now where did I leave that aluminum foil hat liner...?

 

Ed"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ed Obermeier,

 

You made the claim that the Water Ski Injury database would bring about law suits, and that NOONE should participate. Well, as you know, I am the (accused) anonymous person who made the survey. Where are all of these "law suits" you claimed will happen??? Answer: NO-WHERE! You make these false claims as if they are fact. You also stated that these "internet Polls" have no credibility. Even if only one thing could be learned, that would be much better than learning NOTHING, which is what we would learn if we only listened to you. Maybe you would be better sticking to making your low-tech slalom courses.

 

-Dan Birch

[Marco]

Hey Dan-  If you want to continue your attack on Ed, a well respected member of the waterski community, leave it over on the WSF where you began it.  All the Kool-Aid you have been drinking over there has distorted your perspective.  Leave it off BoS.

[ForrestGump]

Yes, BOS is not going to become the new WSF.  If you wish to join this discussion, feel free. Please tell those who are in the discussion why you feel your db has merit. That is productive discussion. You were not called out by name, as you have done to Ed.